British Railway Operations

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Yes, he's a very good writer. Christian Wolmer. I've not read his book but a lot of it has been printed in 'RAIL', a fortnightly magazine which I read. He also writes in "The Independant", a national newspaper in Britain which I often buy.

I'm about 1/4 th through this book. It starts out with a basic overview of the British rail system [:)].
Some interesting things I learned: At it's creation,in 1948,British Railways had 7000 horses used for traction in yards,with some still being used as late as 1964.[:0]. There were fewer than 4,000 freight wagons in Britain when this book was written (2001). That's not many,compared to North American railroads. There were over 50 prototype diesel designs tried out during early dieselization.
Funny to think that somewhere, there was a train yard that went straight from horsepower to diesel power!

I finished this book. I learned: 1) There's a lot of political BS in the British rail system too[:(!]. 2) The British system ate up a LOT of money(like Conrail) to get where it is today, and will require a lot more on an ongoing basis(like Amtrack). and 3) "The Fat Controller" name used in The Railway Series of books refers to an old nickname used for the general managers in British Rail days. Why did they change his name to Sir Toppum Hat,when it was adapted into Thomas the Tank Engine?

Reading this made me realize that British Railway Operations consist of mostly passenger trains, with some freight trains thrown in. In North America we're mostly freight trains with some passenger trains thrown in.

What would be the harm in spinning the system *back* into the big 4 systems of pre-1948? I mean,you still have all those classic posters for the lines.[:)]

[Murphy Siding]

No fair! I live in a climate that can vary from 115 degrees (farenheit) to -30 degrees.[:)]

[Simon Reed]

Britain has a temperate climate ( think Coastal Oregon/Washington ) so heavy frosts are rare...certainly frost heavy enough to freeze piped or tanked water.

Having said that most of the surviving funiculars in Britain are on cliffs at seaside resorts, which only tend to attract visitors in the warmer months.

Off the top of my head I think the only inland one is Bridgnorth - I'm not counting Machynlleth as inland.

Any of our American friends want to try pronouncing Machynlleth??

[Murphy Siding]

Interesting! Is this type of operation seasonal, or doesn't it freeze in the winter?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

There's a couple of funicular lines near me that either are or used to be water powered. Aberystwyth's cliff railway used to use water tanks to move the cars (filling them at the top to haul the other car up) though it now uses an electric motor instead. The other one (which is water powered) is at the Centre for Alternative Technology near Machynlleth - they use it to haul visitors up from the carpark to the centre. There's a website for the Aberystwyth one at http://www.aberystwythcliffrailway.co.uk/ but the CAT just seem to regard theirs as a means of moving people rather than as an attraction in its own right - their website has little or no information on it!

[Simon Reed]

How would you use water power to haul wagons up?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

Wasn't there a Monty Python sketch about trainspotting?

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

One part of the British Rail network that remained horse worked right to the very end was the 3' 6" Nantle tramway in North Wales, near Caernarfon (opened 1828). Most of it was converted to standard gauge and locomotive operation in the 1860's but the upper reaches of it remained narrow gauge and horse worked until its final closure in 1963. Ironically some of the quarries had their own steam locos and one of these, a little 0-4-0 Vertical boiler loco is on display at the Dinas HQ of the Welsh Highland Railway where their ex S. African 2' gauge Beyer-Garratts and 2-8-2's dwarf it (Ironically 3' 6" is the standard gauge in S. Africa!).

Some of the inclines of the Nantle Tramway also employed water power (very abundant in North Wales) to haul wagons up. A stationary steam engine (one of the last of its kind to be built ) survives at the Dorothea quarry, one of the Nantle quarries.

When the Nantle first opened it was built by the quarry owners to enable them to export their slate from Caernarfon and operated like a toll road in that all the quarries provided their own horses and paid a toll for using the line. But this caused problems with some of the less well maintained cars damaging the track so by the 1850's it had become vertically integrated!

To-day much of the Nantle trackbed can be walked, the section that was converted to standard gauge is now a footback. The last 3 miles into Caernarfon is now also used by the 2' gauge Welsh Highland. (Originally this line joined up with the Nantle line at Dinas 3 miles f rom Caernarfon with the result that the slate had to be transhipped to standard gauge just for the last 3 miles ot Caernarfon! But now it runs right into the town with a terminus by the famous castle, close to where the original 1828 Nantle terminus was).

How would you use water power to haul wagons up?

Thanks

[Tulyar15]

One part of the British Rail network that remained horse worked right to the very end was the 3' 6" Nantle tramway in North Wales, near Caernarfon (opened 1828). Most of it was converted to standard gauge and locomotive operation in the 1860's but the upper reaches of it remained narrow gauge and horse worked until its final closure in 1963. Ironically some of the quarries had their own steam locos and one of these, a little 0-4-0 Vertical boiler loco is on display at the Dinas HQ of the Welsh Highland Railway where their ex S. African 2' gauge Beyer-Garratts and 2-8-2's dwarf it (Ironically 3' 6" is the standard gauge in S. Africa!).

Some of the inclines of the Nantle Tramway also employed water power (very abundant in North Wales) to haul wagons up. A stationary steam engine (one of the last of its kind to be built ) survives at the Dorothea quarry, one of the Nantle quarries.

When the Nantle first opened it was built by the quarry owners to enable them to export their slate from Caernarfon and operated like a toll road in that all the quarries provided their own horses and paid a toll for using the line. But this caused problems with some of the less well maintained cars damaging the track so by the 1850's it had become vertically integrated!

To-day much of the Nantle trackbed can be walked, the section that was converted to standard gauge is now a footback. The last 3 miles into Caernarfon is now also used by the 2' gauge Welsh Highland. (Originally this line joined up with the Nantle line at Dinas 3 miles f rom Caernarfon with the result that the slate had to be transhipped to standard gauge just for the last 3 miles ot Caernarfon! But now it runs right into the town with a terminus by the famous castle, close to where the original 1828 Nantle terminus was).

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Yes, he's a very good writer. Christian Wolmer. I've not read his book but a lot of it has been printed in 'RAIL', a fortnightly magazine which I read. He also writes in "The Independant", a national newspaper in Britain which I often buy.

I'm about 1/4 th through this book. It starts out with a basic overview of the British rail system [:)].
Some interesting things I learned: At it's creation,in 1948,British Railways had 7000 horses used for traction in yards,with some still being used as late as 1964.[:0]. There were fewer than 4,000 freight wagons in Britain when this book was written (2001). That's not many,compared to North American railroads. There were over 50 prototype diesel designs tried out during early dieselization.
Funny to think that somewhere, there was a train yard that went straight from horsepower to diesel power!

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CSSHEGEWISCH

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

That's 30,000 different locomotives?[:)]

That's right[:D] I've kept track of renumberings and rebuildings so I don't have any double counts to my knowledge[?] It goes a long way to keeping the ride to work (Metra Southwest) interesting.
Without trying to appear too modest, 30,000 locomotives in over 30 years doesn't take too much effort, especially when EMD and NRE were close.

Well, let's do some math here......30,000 locomotives, divided by 30 years,divided by 365 days, is......2.74. You see an *average* of about 3 *different* locomotives per day![:D]. Man-o-man. I figure it's a good day when I see something(anything) out of the ordinary. Do you do that Pavlov's dog thing and drool when you hear a train whistle?[;)]

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

That's 30,000 different locomotives?[:)]

That's right[:D] I've kept track of renumberings and rebuildings so I don't have any double counts to my knowledge[?] It goes a long way to keeping the ride to work (Metra Southwest) interesting.
Without trying to appear too modest, 30,000 locomotives in over 30 years doesn't take too much effort, especially when EMD and NRE were close.

[Tulyar15]

Yes, he's a very good writer. Christian Wolmer. I've not read his book but a lot of it has been printed in 'RAIL', a fortnightly magazine which I read. He also writes in "The Independant", a national newspaper in Britain which I often buy.

[Murphy Siding]

I just picked up a copy of "Broken Rails:How Privatisation Wrecked Britain's Railways", by Christian Wolmer. It looks interesting.

[Murphy Siding]

That's 30,000 different locomotives?[:)]

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Train Spotting involves collecting loco numbers, either writing them down in a note book or underlining them in a book containing loco numbers with a description of the locos concerned.

Trainspotting started in the 1940's when a publicity officer at the Southern Railway called Ian Allen got permission from his employers to publish a booklet describing all the SR's loco's with a list of numbers. This proved so popular that he published similar booklets for the other 3 big four railways and started his own publishing house which to-day is big business, publishing a wide variety of books and magazines on transport related subjects.

Trainspotting became so popular in the 1940's that the railways banned spotting at certain stations were lots of young spotters were getting in the way. It declined in the 1960's with the end of steam but picked up again in the 1970's. I think it remains a peculiarly Briti***hing. While there are railfans in most European countries the only books lisiting their loco numbers are printed in English!

With a lot of people keeping up to date rosters on the internet of most railroads, I wonder if a similar form of that goes on here?

I'm sure it does, and I'm one of the guilty parties with a count of slightly over 30,000 locomotives and slugs since 1968.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Train Spotting involves collecting loco numbers, either writing them down in a note book or underlining them in a book containing loco numbers with a description of the locos concerned.

Trainspotting started in the 1940's when a publicity officer at the Southern Railway called Ian Allen got permission from his employers to publish a booklet describing all the SR's loco's with a list of numbers. This proved so popular that he published similar booklets for the other 3 big four railways and started his own publishing house which to-day is big business, publishing a wide variety of books and magazines on transport related subjects.

Trainspotting became so popular in the 1940's that the railways banned spotting at certain stations were lots of young spotters were getting in the way. It declined in the 1960's with the end of steam but picked up again in the 1970's. I think it remains a peculiarly Briti***hing. While there are railfans in most European countries the only books lisiting their loco numbers are printed in English!

With a lot of people keeping up to date rosters on the internet of most railroads, I wonder if a similar form of that goes on here?

[Tulyar15]

Train Spotting involves collecting loco numbers, either writing them down in a note book or underlining them in a book containing loco numbers with a description of the locos concerned.

Trainspotting started in the 1940's when a publicity officer at the Southern Railway called Ian Allen got permission from his employers to publish a booklet describing all the SR's loco's with a list of numbers. This proved so popular that he published similar booklets for the other 3 big four railways and started his own publishing house which to-day is big business, publishing a wide variety of books and magazines on transport related subjects.

Trainspotting became so popular in the 1940's that the railways banned spotting at certain stations were lots of young spotters were getting in the way. It declined in the 1960's with the end of steam but picked up again in the 1970's. I think it remains a peculiarly Briti***hing. While there are railfans in most European countries the only books lisiting their loco numbers are printed in English!

[Murphy Siding]

OK. I'll presume it's allright to call you guys Brits?
I'm searching the link from nanaimo73,looking for clues about where cogload picks up his handle.[:)]. No luck, but I'm looking.
I probably sound like a nut, with all the questions,but I do find the answers interesting. Some time back, I read about *train spotting* in Britain. Can anyone explain that to me?

Thanks

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RPRiebe

I posted a general question with its own thread, but perhaps you gents here could give who, what, where from the UK side.

Who designed the UK locomotives, in country and export, and why did fifties models, US and UK use the "nose" design which was similar ?

Why did it go out of use?

Euro bread-loaf designs, I imagine, are simple to design and slightly better than the box cab things that are now in use, but they lacked--style.(God only knows what influenced the bizarre Alsthom design the French used.)
Bob

The nose designs in the UK are largely due to English Electric and their drawing office. In 1948 they delivered six units to Egypt with full rounded EMD style noses, but with three windscreens instead of two. Slightly earlier, EE designed the locomotives 10000 and 10001 built in 1947 and 1948 built in the LMS Workshops. This had a shortened version of the rounded nose.

In 1955, the Blue prototype "Deltic" was built with more rectangular noses but with only two windscreens. Some export locomotives, particularly for Malaya, were built to this design (but with the conventional 12SVT engine).

When the "Pilot Scheme" locomotives appeared around 1958, the English Electric Type 4 (class 40) had a version of the "10000" three windscreen design was used with a curved top design (that matched the roof profile) but with sharper corners. This was also used, with shorter noses, on the "Baby Delics" and the class 37.

But the BR Workshops had a contract to build similar locomotives with Sulzer engines, and they too drew upon 10000, which they had built, for inspiration, and their version was more like the 1947 design. These units became the Class 44 and similar classes 45 and 46 followed.

In 1962, a batch of production "Deltics" was built, and these followed the 1955 design simplified and modified to allow use in tighter clearances. About the same time the Class 47 appeared as a successor to the classes 44-46, and it had the noseless design used for subsequent locomotives, partly to reduce weight, which had been a criticism of the earlier designs.

The French locomotives were styled by an industrial designer Paul Arzens. He started off by putting "arrowhead" designs (which incorporated the radiator and air intake grilles)on the sides of relatively normal box cab locomotives such as classes 67000 and 68000. Later he introduced the reverse angle cab windows on the 40100 electrics (which had a stainless steel body) and the 72000 class diesels. This design did reduce internal reflections in the cab at night.

In the USA, noses went away with the move to hood units, which gave better access to engines and other equipment. Noses came back with the Cowl units and now are used on hood units for better crew protection.

M636C

[Anonymous]

That site is quite entertaining - follow those links as well and you may find where I pick my handle from (hint - look in the location specific pages)

Ok - back to the off topic subject for a minute. Many of our overseas friends seem to think that I am English. This is because I have an English accent. Yeah. They also seem to think that London=England and that England=United Kingdom. My nationality is British reflecting the fact that though I was born in England, I have Scots Ancestry and one set of parents live in Wales. And if you want to take it to extremes I live in Cornwall. The Cornish (native ones) dont regard themselves as "English" for a variety of reasons which stretch back to Gildas and his ranting and the invasion of the English/Jutes/various others from about the year 400AD on onwards.

Recommended reading for this subject = Anglo Saxon England (Oxford History of England series) by Sir Frank Stenton. Where incidentally you can find out about King Arthur as well (mentioned in one epic Welsh poem - the Goddin)

[nanaimo73]

This site looks interesting
http://www.wnxx.com/

[martin.knoepfel]

No legal difference whether you are from England, Scotland, Ulster (=Northern Ireland) or Wales.Gordon Brown, who will most probably be the next Prime Minister, is Scottish.

The Republic of Ireland is of course an independant country. It has a seat in the UN and in the EU.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RPRiebe

I posted a general question with its own thread, but perhaps you gents here could give who, what, where from the UK side.

Who designed the UK locomotives, in country and export, and why did fifties models, US and UK use the "nose" design which was similar ?

Why did it go out of use?

Euro bread-loaf designs, I imagine, are simple to design and slightly better than the box cab things that are now in use, but the lacked--style.(God only knows what influenced the bizarre Alsthom design the French used.)
Bob

A lot of the older British diesel locomotives look to me like the noses were all made by the "ACME Locomotive Nose CO." [:)]

[Anonymous]

I posted a general question with its own thread, but perhaps you gents here could give who, what, where from the UK side.

Who designed the UK locomotives, in country and export, and why did fifties models, US and UK use the "nose" design which was similar ?

Why did it go out of use?

Euro bread-loaf designs, I imagine, are simple to design and slightly better than the box cab things that are now in use, but the lacked--style.(God only knows what influenced the bizarre Alsthom design the French used.)
Bob

[Simon Reed]

Murphy - magazines on their way.

I don't feel that I ought to join in the discussion about a dis-United Kingdom. I was born in Lancashire but now live in Yorkshire with a Scottish partner and consider myself European....

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by martin.knoepfel

In soccer, there are still separate English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Iri***eams. If you look at soccer plays between these countries, you can watch the flags. Similar thing in boxing.

@Murphy. If you like to keep all your teeth, you better do not tell a Scot you believes he is an Englishman.

Boy-now you have me worried. I can't remember if any of you fellas is Scottish![:0]. I do remember one of you (cogload I *think*) is Cornish? Collectively,are the citizens of the British Isles considered British? What about those who live in Northern Ireland?
I know that, collectively,we call ourselves Americans. It seems a lot of Brits(there I go again[:)]), and Australians refer to us as Yankees, or Yanks?Is that pretty common?
I know that this is off-topic,but,what the heck. We share a somewhat common heritage,a common language, and we all seem to have an interest in trains.

I do thank you all for your posts!

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

futuredave: Why in the world would you want to interject American politics into a perfectly good thread?[:(] Hiss! Boo!

Oops, forgot the smilies to indicate that it is all in jest.

[martin.knoepfel]

In soccer, there are still separate English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Iri***eams. If you look at soccer plays between these countries, you can watch the flags. Similar thing in boxing.

@Murphy. If you like to keep all your teeth, you better do not tell a Scot you believes he is an Englishman.

[M636C]

Tulyar,

You are right of course. If I'd thought about the names of the saints I would have got it right! For the record the English flag is that of St George and the Scots flag is that of St Andrew, as I described above. The red diagonal cross on white is indeed that of St Patrick, and thus belongs to Ireland. From this distance, a united Ireland looks more likely, at least to the extent of a reduction in sectarian violence. With that gone and both countries being EC members, you'll just have to change your Euros in Belfast when moving north.

For what it is worth, I played Rugby at high school, but it was the soccer matches in London that I was describing. I'm pleased to have gone to a match at the old Wembley stadium - quite impressive and historic (and gone like so much railway infrastructure).
I'm sure that rail will still serve Wembley when it is rebuilt - I used London Transport for my visit.

M636C