British Railway Operations

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

The London system dates back to the mid 1800s - it's since been expanded dramatically. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground has a good potted history of the system.

Thanks. That was an interesting read. In 1880, the underground was serving 40,000,000 passengers a year! That's quite an achievement in modern times. Hard to believe that could be done 125 years ago.[8D]

[Anonymous]

The London system dates back to the mid 1800s - it's since been expanded dramatically. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground has a good potted history of the system.

[Murphy Siding]

Are all these systems *old*? reletively speaking?

Thanks.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Thanks for the explanation of the Underground. I live in a very rural state-definately no subways here. Do other large cities in Great Britain have underground subways too? My only familiarity with the underground is in reading about their use as bomb shelters.
As you can see, we Americans have a hard time understanding things,because we can't understand each other![:P].........Oh yea-........eat your heart out.[;)]

It doesn't help that Londoners often refer to all Underground lines as "The Tube", either, regardless of the type of tunnel used. The term "Overground" is often used for the former British Rail lines, some of which run in tunnels under London.

M636C

That sounds a lot like the way we Chicagoans refer to our rapid transit system as the "L", regardless of where it runs, be it a subway, expressway (motorway) median strip or elevated structure. I understand that New Yorkers refer to their system as the Subway, even when it runs above ground.

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Thanks for the explanation of the Underground. I live in a very rural state-definately no subways here. Do other large cities in Great Britain have underground subways too? My only familiarity with the underground is in reading about their use as bomb shelters.
As you can see, we Americans have a hard time understanding things,because we can't understand each other![:P].........Oh yea-.........eat your heart out.[;)]

Liverpool has an "underground system" courtesy of the former Mersey Railway / Wirral Railways tunnels under the River Mersey. Back in the 1970s, the local Passenger Transport Executive invested in an imaginative scheme of tunnelling so as to connect two former termini to give a North West - South East through service, with another loop tunnel such that incoming trains from BirKenhead on the Wirral Peninsula would travel clockwise around the loop, connecting with stations on the NW-SE line, and also serving Lime Street Station, the Inter City Terminus.

Incidentally, the erstwhile Liverpool Overhead Railway was the UK's nearest equivalent to a US Elevated Line. Sadly it was demolished in the 1950s, but was reputed to be very popular, as it afforded passengers a grandstand view of the shipping in the Docks and the River, and the clincher was, I believe, the cost of maintaining the continuous bridge structure.

Also, the Tyneside Metro system burrows underneath Newcastle and Gateshead in NE England, so I suppose that should qualify that as an "underground system", too.

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Thanks for the explanation of the Underground. I live in a very rural state-definately no subways here. Do other large cities in Great Britain have underground subways too? My only familiarity with the underground is in reading about their use as bomb shelters.
As you can see, we Americans have a hard time understanding things,because we can't understand each other![:P].........Oh yea-........eat your heart out.[;)]

It doesn't help that Londoners often refer to all Underground lines as "The Tube", either, regardless of the type of tunnel used. The term "Overground" is often used for the former British Rail lines, some of which run in tunnels under London.

Glasgow also has a tube style subway, originally operated by cable but now an electric line. Because the most recent cars were painted orange, the subway gained the nickname "The Clockwork Orange".

M636C

[Murphy Siding]

Thanks for the explanation of the Underground. I live in a very rural state-definately no subways here. Do other large cities in Great Britain have underground subways too? My only familiarity with the underground is in reading about their use as bomb shelters.
As you can see, we Americans have a hard time understanding things,because we can't understand each other![:P].........Oh yea-.........eat your heart out.[;)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15
British Rail got rid of standard gauge steam locos in 1968, but it continued to own and operate the 2' guage Vale of Rheidol in Wales until 1986. Since then the VofR has been in private ownership (much to Futuremodal's disappointment it was sold off lock stock and barrel as a vertically integrated operation to the highest bidder).

I have no objections to shortline, tourist, and/or other quaint railroad operations remaining as closed access systems, because the ability of these entities to extract monopolistic excesses from the general public is extremely limited if not altogether impossible. Eat your heart out, V of R!(insert back slap smilie here)

Eat your heart out, V of R ? (insert scoobie doo rhuh? smilie here)[C=:-)]

Yes, you know, like "knock yourself out" or "break a leg" e.g. a variation of "go for it!"

And if you don't think that "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" is the funniest movie of all time, you may need to get your head examined.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15
British Rail got rid of standard gauge steam locos in 1968, but it continued to own and operate the 2' guage Vale of Rheidol in Wales until 1986. Since then the VofR has been in private ownership (much to Futuremodal's disappointment it was sold off lock stock and barrel as a vertically integrated operation to the highest bidder).

I have no objections to shortline, tourist, and/or other quaint railroad operations remaining as closed access systems, because the ability of these entities to extract monopolistic excesses from the general public is extremely limited if not altogether impossible. Eat your heart out, V of R!(insert back slap smilie here)

Eat your heart out, V of R ? (insert scoobie doo rhuh? smilie here)[C=:-)]

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding


Wouldn't London Underground be *under ground*? How does that work with a steam engine?

Thanks

It's not a problem given that more than half of the Underground is actualy on the surface.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

One article mentions steam on British rails long after I would have thought it was still used. When was the last use of steam locomotives in regular service in Britain?

Thanks

British Rail got rid of standard gauge steam locos in 1968, but it continued to own and operate the 2' guage Vale of Rheidol in Wales until 1986. Since then the VofR has been in private ownership (much to Futuremodal's disappointment it was sold off lock stock and barrel as a vertically integrated operation to the highest bidder).

London Underground continued to use steam locos for works trains on the Metropolitan line until 1971; British Coal, our former state owned coal company had several steam locos in use at mine up till the mid 1980's. The most of these were ones it had bought new in the 1950's but it did also buy some second hand locos from BR. The last of these to remain in use was ex GWR Pannier No. 7754 which was used at Mountain Ash colliery in south Wales up till 1980; it's now preserved on the Llangollen Railway.

The VofR is in good shape - I was driving into Aberystwyth yesterday and saw the plume of smoke, didn't know they ran this late in the season. The advice on their website about ensuring that you don't miss the last train back from Devil's Bridge is very good - it's about 18 miles or so by road from Aberystwyth and is really out in the middle of nowhere. There used to be a thriving mining operation up there and if you drive a little further into the hills you can see the ruined buildings and spoil heaps near a tiny village named Cwmystwyth. I think they even had a little 2ft gauge mine railway as in one place there are two rusting rails poking out from the tarmac at the edge of the road - presumably the remains of a crossing.

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

One article mentions steam on British rails long after I would have thought it was still used. When was the last use of steam locomotives in regular service in Britain?

Thanks

British Rail got rid of standard gauge steam locos in 1968, but it continued to own and operate the 2' guage Vale of Rheidol in Wales until 1986. Since then the VofR has been in private ownership (much to Futuremodal's disappointment it was sold off lock stock and barrel as a vertically integrated operation to the highest bidder).

London Underground continued to use steam locos for works trains on the Metropolitan line until 1971; British Coal, our former state owned coal company had several steam locos in use at mine up till the mid 1980's. The most of these were ones it had bought new in the 1950's but it did also buy some second hand locos from BR. The last of these to remain in use was ex GWR Pannier No. 7754 which was used at Mountain Ash colliery in south Wales up till 1980; it's now preserved on the Llangollen Railway.

Wouldn't London Underground be *under ground*? How does that work with a steam engine?

Thanks

OK, London Underground 101

There are two types of lines

Surface and sub surface lines
Tube lines or deep level lines.

The surface and sub surface lines run full size trains (well full size for the UK where they are pretty small anyway). Sometimes the tracks are shared with longer distance trains, and in the outer areas, former "main line" railways have been taken over.

The "tube" lines are literally tubes, often made from cast iron segments (or more recently pre-cast concrete). They are dug through clay deep below London using tunnelling shields, the segmented tunnel lining being assembled immediately behind the shield. These tunnels are twelve feet in inside diameter and the trains have to fit this space, and are of course much lower in height than even British normal trains.

Both these tube trains and the surface line trains run on track electrified with four rails, two running rails and one positive and one negative conductor rail. The negative rail is central and the positive rail is outside, changing from side to side as convenient.

The underground sections of the sub surface lines are usually in cuttings or shallow tunnels built by the cut and cover system. The earliest of these were originally operated by steam locomotives which had a simple form of condensation. The steam was diverted from the blast pipe into pipes into the water tanks. This removed the draft on the fire, so smoke and gas production (and steam production too) was cut dramatically. The train continued on with the existing steam in the boiler with most steam being condensed by passing through the water tanks. Thus the conditions in the tunnels were not as bad as if conventional steam locomotives were used.

The "main line" railways sometimes continued to use steam locomotives for freight operations, usually at night when passenger service was infrequent or had ceased.

London Transport had used conventional steam locomotives on the outer areas of the surface lines, and these trains were hauled into London by electric locomotives. Eventually, these trains were discontintinued, but steam locomotives were still used on track maintenance trains on the surface sections. Battery locomotives, all small enough for the deep tube lines are used in the tunnel sections, and diesels have since been purchased to replace the steam.

Some of the later condensing locomotives, and some conventional locomotives were purchased from British Railways in the late 1960s to replace the very old steam locomotives on maintenance duties, and thus they continued in occasional use (and for steam hauled enthusiast trips on lines all on the surface) for quite some time after BR steam finished in 1968.

M636C

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15
British Rail got rid of standard gauge steam locos in 1968, but it continued to own and operate the 2' guage Vale of Rheidol in Wales until 1986. Since then the VofR has been in private ownership (much to Futuremodal's disappointment it was sold off lock stock and barrel as a vertically integrated operation to the highest bidder).

I have no objections to shortline, tourist, and/or other quaint railroad operations remaining as closed access systems, because the ability of these entities to extract monopolistic excesses from the general public is extremely limited if not altogether impossible. Eat your heart out, V of R!(insert back slap smilie here)

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

One article mentions steam on British rails long after I would have thought it was still used. When was the last use of steam locomotives in regular service in Britain?

Thanks

British Rail got rid of standard gauge steam locos in 1968, but it continued to own and operate the 2' guage Vale of Rheidol in Wales until 1986. Since then the VofR has been in private ownership (much to Futuremodal's disappointment it was sold off lock stock and barrel as a vertically integrated operation to the highest bidder).

London Underground continued to use steam locos for works trains on the Metropolitan line until 1971; British Coal, our former state owned coal company had several steam locos in use at mine up till the mid 1980's. The most of these were ones it had bought new in the 1950's but it did also buy some second hand locos from BR. The last of these to remain in use was ex GWR Pannier No. 7754 which was used at Mountain Ash colliery in south Wales up till 1980; it's now preserved on the Llangollen Railway.

Wouldn't London Underground be *under ground*? How does that work with a steam engine?

Thanks

[Murphy Siding]

Traction is a magazine all about locomotives. Do we have something similar on this side of the Atlantic?

[Simon Reed]

But scheduled steam has worked over the West Highland Extension (Fort William-Mallaig) every summer for the last 11 years, and there's at least one steam operated special on the main line every weekend of the year, and many midweek specials too.

Glad you're enjoying them. For the benefit of our UK readers Mr Siding has a copy of Railway Magazine, Steam Railway and Traction to digest at his leisure.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

One article mentions steam on British rails long after I would have thought it was still used. When was the last use of steam locomotives in regular service in Britain?

Thanks

British Rail got rid of standard gauge steam locos in 1968, but it continued to own and operate the 2' guage Vale of Rheidol in Wales until 1986. Since then the VofR has been in private ownership (much to Futuremodal's disappointment it was sold off lock stock and barrel as a vertically integrated operation to the highest bidder).

London Underground continued to use steam locos for works trains on the Metropolitan line until 1971; British Coal, our former state owned coal company had several steam locos in use at mine up till the mid 1980's. The most of these were ones it had bought new in the 1950's but it did also buy some second hand locos from BR. The last of these to remain in use was ex GWR Pannier No. 7754 which was used at Mountain Ash colliery in south Wales up till 1980; it's now preserved on the Llangollen Railway.

[Murphy Siding]

Simon Reed sent me 3 British Railroad magazines.[:)]. These people are into heavy-duty railroad reading. Each one is like a book. He sent along a nice letter, saying he had visited 47 of the 50 states,traveled 25,000 miles on Amtrak, and has been through the city I live in. (Sioux Falls, SD). Although the magazines are written in *English*, there is somewhat of a language issue that make them interesting to follow at some parts! I may have to invest in an Engli***o English dictionary.[;)]


One article mentions steam on British rails long after I would have thought it was still used. When was the last use of steam locomotives in regular service in Britain?

Thanks

[Simon Reed]

Happy reading Mr. Siding!

That tempers the bad news from Nuremburg. It's not a good week for me. Firstly it's the FL9 farewell this weekend and I can't get there, secondly the prototype V200 has gone up in smoke.

Not remotely connecting to British Railway Operations but I felt the need to vent....

[Murphy Siding]

Simon Reed: I just received my Christmas present early![:)]. ' Haven't looked it over too closely yet, but am looking forward to it very much.


Thanks







[:D]

[Murphy Siding]

Speaking of Thomas, I read a story in a non-railroad magazine that just about killed me with laughter! An up and coming 20-something American journalist was sent to Britain to write an article about Thomas the Tank Engine. After interviewing the voice actor who did the narration, a Mr. R. Starr, he asked a question something along the line of: "You seem to be at-ease with this type of work. Have you worked in broadcasting or the entertainment field before?" Ringo Starr replied: "I was in a little 4-piece band once. Perhaps you've heard of us?......"

[Tulyar15]

MurphySiding - have you ever seen any of the BBC "Great Railway Journeys of the World" TV programmes? Micheal Palin did at least two of these - one on Britain and one on Ireland.

Incidentally, going back to "Thomas" one of my favourite stories is the one where the Isle of Sodor is visited by two train spotting clergymen, one thin, the other fat. The thin one is a charicature of Awdry himself while the fat one is a charicature of Awdry's buddy the Rev Teddy ("Tubby!") Boston. They often used to go train watching together. "Tubby" Boston built a 2' gauge line in the grounds of his vicarage in Leicestershire but alas his widow (who kept it going for several years after his death) has decided its time to call it a day and the collection is being disbanded.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by martin.knoepfel

Monty Python is a group of British actors. They produced several very funny movies, for example. Try to download "The life of Brian" from the internet.

That's the problem. I've seen several Monty Python movies, and reruns of the TV shows. I just don't get the humor, apparantly/[xx(]. On the other hand, I could watch goofy Benny Hill all day long.[:)]

[martin.knoepfel]

Monty Python is a group of British actors. They produced several very funny movies, for example. Try to download "The life of Brian" from the internet.

[Murphy Siding]

Trainspotting,I understand. Monty Python, I do not.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

Wasn't there a Monty Python sketch about trainspotting?

That sounds distinctly possible, especially when you consider that Eric Idle has pled guilty to being a trainspotter himself.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Is "Sodor" the name of a real railroad or real place in Britain? I know it's refered to as The Island of Sodor.

The Island of Sodor in the "Thomas" books is a myth; it is supposedly in the Irish sea between the English Lake District and the Isle of Man.

In the Church of England there is a bishopric of Man and Sodor. At one time in the supposedly Dark Ages (the period between the end of the Roman occupation of Britain in AD 410 and the Norman Conquest in 1066) there was the Kingdom of Man and Sodor. This consisted of the Isle of Man and the Outer Hebrides ( a group of islands to the NW of Scotland). The Hebrides eventually became part of Scotland in the 15th century but although the King of Scotland at that time became King of Man also the Isle of Man remains a separate kingdom with its own laws and taxations. It is not part of the United Kingdon nor the British Commonwealth but does have a 300 year old customs treaty with the UK.

Going back to the question of water haulage, as well as the water balance method that has already been described, the other method was simply to use a water wheel to haul up wagons. A lot of quarries had water wheeels to drive machinery; some later used them to generate hydro electricity and not only had electrically powered inclines but also in a few instances overhead electric locos. There was even a proposal to electrify the Ffestiniog railway in the 1900's when its major stockolder was the N. Wales Power and Aluminium co. This never happened but the Metre Gauge De La Mure railway in France, which was electrified in 1911 (and several original electric locos are still running) provides a glimpse of what it might have been like.

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Is "Sodor" the name of a real railroad or real place in Britain? I know it's refered to as The Island of Sodor.

The name Sodor apparently is part of the name of the area controlled by the Church of England bishop in the mainland area near Barrow, where Awdry located the mythical island of Sodor. Awdry was a Church of England minister, and would have been familiar with these titles. There wasn't a town with this name, nor a local council area.

M636C

[Murphy Siding]

Is "Sodor" the name of a real railroad or real place in Britain? I know it's refered to as The Island of Sodor.

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Yes, he's a very good writer. Christian Wolmer. I've not read his book but a lot of it has been printed in 'RAIL', a fortnightly magazine which I read. He also writes in "The Independant", a national newspaper in Britain which I often buy.

I'm about 1/4 th through this book. It starts out with a basic overview of the British rail system [:)].
Some interesting things I learned: At it's creation,in 1948,British Railways had 7000 horses used for traction in yards,with some still being used as late as 1964.[:0]. There were fewer than 4,000 freight wagons in Britain when this book was written (2001). That's not many,compared to North American railroads. There were over 50 prototype diesel designs tried out during early dieselization.
Funny to think that somewhere, there was a train yard that went straight from horsepower to diesel power!

I finished this book. I learned: 1) There's a lot of political BS in the British rail system too[:(!]. 2) The British system ate up a LOT of money(like Conrail) to get where it is today, and will require a lot more on an ongoing basis(like Amtrack). and 3) "The Fat Controller" name used in The Railway Series of books refers to an old nickname used for the general managers in British Rail days. Why did they change his name to Sir Toppum Hat,when it was adapted into Thomas the Tank Engine?

Reading this made me realize that British Railway Operations consist of mostly passenger trains, with some freight trains thrown in. In North America we're mostly freight trains with some passenger trains thrown in.

What would be the harm in spinning the system *back* into the big 4 systems of pre-1948? I mean,you still have all those classic posters for the lines.[:)]

Some aspects of the "Big Four" were revived. The East and West Coast lines to Scotland went to competing operators, and the name "Great Western" was revived for long distance passenger trains to Wales, Devon and Cornwall. What was different was that the commuter services around London on the main routes went to separate operators, so that there was a clear concentration on those services, and any public service obligation (subsidy) payments were clearly targeted.

Awdry's books preceded the Nationalisation of BR and Sir Topham Hatt was originally called the "Fat Director". With Nationalisation, Sodor became a "Region" rather than a "Railway" and Sir Topham became a "Controller". I think this refers to a person in financial control, sometimes spelled "comptroller", and not related to train control. I assume this reflected senior staff titles after Nationalisation.

M636C