British Railway Operations

[malcolmyoung]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer
The LNER 2-6-2 is a V2 only one of which was named, 60847 'St. Peter's School York A.D.627' There is one in preservation which carries the name 'Green Goddess', or is it a K1 2-6-0?
John B.

Seven L.N.E.R. class V2 2-6-2s were named from new, they were:-
60800... "Green Arrow"
60809... "The Snapper, The East Yorkshire Regiment, The Duke of York's Own"
60835..."The Green Howard, Alexandra, Princess of Wales' Own Yorkshire Regiment"
60847..."St. Peter's School, York, A.D. 627"
60860..."Durham School"
60872..."King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry"
60873..."Coldstreamer"
Another V2 60964 was named "The Durham Light Infantry" in 1958.

60800... "Green Arrow" is preserved in the National Collection at York Railway Museum and is still used occasionally.

The engine numbers quoted above are the post 1948 British Railways numbers and not the original L.N.E.R. numbers.

Some of the above names must rank as amongst the longest ever given to locomotives.

The only locomotive that I know of named "Green Goddess" is a 15" gauge pacific on the Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch Railway in Kent. (Well worth a visit).

Malc.

[malcolmyoung]

Two small three cylinder class V4 2-6-2s were built in 1941, only the first one was officially named "Bantam ****", the other one was never named but was always known unofficially as "Bantam Hen". Sir Nigel Gresley died soon after these two locos were built and his successor, Edward Thompson did not like three cylinder engines and no more were built.

Malc.

[John Bakeer]

Thanks Malc,
I must have been having a'senior moment', you are quite correct. I was looking at a 1964 ABC. most steamers had gone by then.
I'm closer to the Ratty (Stockport Greater Manchester), but my endurance is not up to the journey.
Anyone know about the spooks on the WCML?
John B.

[Hugh Jampton]

There will always be unused paths on a railway, the UIC reccommend25% unused paths spread eveny throuout the day. This is to reduce the knock on effect of a delayed train. Railtrack did not initially understand this and many lines were run with more than 90% of paths used. Of course if one train was delayed it threw the whole network into chaos, and it colud take hours to recover. This was bad for the company that caused the initial delay as they'd have to pay out for delay minutes to other trains.

[daveklepper]

Don't forget the Great Western (continued into BR days) 4-6-0 Manors and Castles!

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

I believe there are a number of ghost paths on the WCML for Eurostars from Manchester Piccadilly to Euston. The stock is stored rusting in a field somewhere down south.

GNER were using 3 or 4 of the North of London (NoL) Eurostar sets until last year, when Eurostar took them back. These 7 sets sets differ from the standard 30 Eurostar sets in that they only have 14 pasenger cars instead of the usual 18.

It was suggested that the NoL sets could be used on the domestic (ie Kent Coast) Channel Tunnel Rail Link services but instead they're buing new Japanese units for these services. What the NoL sets are being used for I dont know. Perhaps if they were to put them on the Brussels services they'd have enough sets to increase the Paris service to half hourly frequency,

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BR60103

Murphy: The LNER had a tradition of naming locomotives after horses. Doncaster, where they had a major works, also has a major race course. One of the magazines had an article tracing the horse names on the A3s (Flying Scotsman et al.) Of course, some of them weren't named after horses, but directors or other people.
Sticking with the LNER, the A4 class had several subsets of names. The first 4 were Silver This and That for the Silver Jubilee. Then they were named after birds; some renamed for countries and directors and other blokes.
The B1 4-6-0 were named after antelope type beasts, some with different names for the same beast. Not sure about the B2 and B17 - lot of football teams and??
Two classes of 4-4-0 named after Directors (favourites are Baillie MacWheeble and Lucky Mucklebackit) but a few battles crept in.
The Scott class named after characters in Sir Walter Scott.
Glens, Shires, Hunts (fox hunting teams) and Lochs.
Gresley's V4 2-6-2, the first was called Bantam ****, some called the other Bantam Hen. [:D]
There were a number of classes that I couldn't find a theme for.

Great Western built one Pacific, which they later turned into a 4-6-0, called The Great Bear. You can have a lot of fun by running themes from that name. [8D]

The GWR Pacific No 111 "the Great Bear" was named after a constellation of stars, based on the fact that the preceding four cylinder 4-6-0s were named after stars. Other names in this series might be "The Big Dipper" "the Southern Cross" or the constellations used as astrological symbols, "Leo", "Virgo" and so on.

The LNER 2-6-0 name being sought is "The Great Marquess" which was originally carried by a Gresley K4.

M636C

[John Bakeer]

M636C,
Of course it was The Great Marques! What was I thinking of?
John B.

[Tulyar15]

As far as I know, "The Great Marquess" is currently being overhauled by the Severn Valley Railway, where it is based.

[John Bakeer]

The US Camelback/Mother Hubbard type was imported and tried by (among others) the Lancashire and Yorkshire, but clearance problems lead to their early demise.
On some, communication between driver and fireman was via a speaking tube a.k.a.
ships (see Loco Profiles No9). Maybe this was utilised on the Leaders?
John B.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

The US Camelback/Mother Hubbard type was imported and tried by (among others) the Lancashire and Yorkshire, but clearance problems lead to their early demise.
On some, communication between driver and fireman was via a speaking tube a.k.a.
ships (see Loco Profiles No9). Maybe this was utilised on the Leaders?
John B.

Just looking at a picture of a US Camelback/Mother Hubbard type should have been enough evidense to believe there would be clearance problems in Britain.[;)] From the photos, they look 20 feet tall![:0]

[Tulyar15]

I must admit I'd not heard about this Camelback loco working in Britain. Mind you, the Lancashire & Yorkshire did have a more genrous loading gauge than most lines in Britain so it could have happened.

After WW1, the Great Central Railway (which built its main lines to the European loading gauge) considered buying some ex-US Army 2-10-2's.

One of the earliest examples of American built locos working in Britain were the Norris 4-2-0's used by the Birmingham & Gloucester Railway in the early 1840's. I think its reason for buying them were that they were the most powerful locos available at the time and the B & G needed them for the Lickey Incline - the steepest section of main line in Britain (2.7% for 2 miles).

[Hugh Jampton]

Camelbacks were big,, but so it this Class 80........
(and it's a nice conspiracy and all)

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.dean2/country/britain/br_80.htm

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

Camelbacks were big,, but so it this Class 80........
(and it's a nice conspiracy and all)

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.dean2/country/britain/br_80.htm

I *have* to ask: Is that for real, or a very good parody?

[Simon Reed]

Nice one Hugh!

Long before Class 92's worked on charter trains one of my friends modelled one, posed it on his layout on passenger stock and sent the photo to Pathfinder Tours.

They touched up the photo and printed it in a tour brochure as an April Fool.

Several people subsequently claimed to have been on the train!

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Nice one Hugh!

Long before Class 92's worked on charter trains one of my friends modelled one, posed it on his layout on passenger stock and sent the photo to Pathfinder Tours.

They touched up the photo and printed it in a tour brochure as an April Fool.

Several people subsequently claimed to have been on the train!

OK . You got me there![:I] I hope the people I tricked on April Fools Day, with the BNSF name change thread had a good laugh at my expense.[:p]

[Tulyar15]

The real class 80 was in fact the former MetroVick A1A - A1A Gas Turbine loco #18100 ordered by the GWR and delivered in 1952. At the time its 3,500hp made it the most powerful loco running in Britain. But it was less reliable than the Swiss built gas turbine and could not run on diesel fuel; it had to be run on aircraft fuel hence its nickname "Kerosene Castle". IT was rebuilt as an AC electric loco and renumbered E2001. It was retired in 1968, having become the sole member of Cl 80. On the London Midland Region it became nicknamed "Black Bessie" because it retained its black livery, in contrast to the sky blue colour of the new AC electric locos. It was dumped in a siding at Rugby for some years before finally going to the breakers.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

I must admit I'd not heard about this Camelback loco working in Britain. Mind you, the Lancashire & Yorkshire did have a more genrous loading gauge than most lines in Britain so it could have happened.

After WW1, the Great Central Railway (which built its main lines to the European loading gauge) considered buying some ex-US Army 2-10-2's.

One of the earliest examples of American built locos working in Britain were the Norris 4-2-0's used by the Birmingham & Gloucester Railway in the early 1840's. I think its reason for buying them were that they were the most powerful locos available at the time and the B & G needed them for the Lickey Incline - the steepest section of main line in Britain (2.7% for 2 miles).

Funny coincidence-my first name is Norris[:)]

[M636C]

A Wootten firebox 4-2-2, originally used by the Reading Railroad, with a "Camelback" cab was purchased by the "Eames" vacuum brake company and named "Lovatt Eames" after the proprietor. It demonstrated in the USA and was later moved to the UK, where, with a somewhat cut down cab which made it look even more odd (a camelback 4-2-2 qualifies as odd to start with!) it demonstrated the Eames vacuum brake. It may have moved to the continent or it may have been scrapped, but I don't think it ever returned to the USA.

The only application of Eames vacuum brakes I know of was in Sydney, Australia where the Baldwin 0-4-0 Steam Tram Motors used this system. From the description, it was a direct acting brake, not an automatic system, so the vacuum ejector was turned on to apply the brakes.

M636C

[Tulyar15]

I think the Eames system may have been used in Ireland. There was an accident there in the 19th century were a train had been divided but the rear portion ran away down a hil (the train had stalled on a hill and the crew had tried splitting it) and crashed into another, following train. It came out at the enquiry that as the type of vacuum brakes used required a vacuum to be created to apply the brakes. Thus the detached portion had no way of applying brakes once it was disconnected from the loco.

As a result of that accident all railways in Britain and Ireland were required to use automatic vacuum or air brakes for passenger trains (but not freighte, most of which remained without continuous brakes up till the 1960s!).

[Anonymous]

I've heard that the camel back 4-2-2 came to britain but i've never seen a photo and as they say seeing is believing. I am also suprised that the L & Y had a camel back. As a point of intrest if it has not been mentioned already, when was the last Camel Back retired?

Also read to day that British Airways is slashing prices on European Short haul flights to beat the budget air lines and on London Manchester flights to beat Virgin Trains. Maybe this means the light at the end of the tunnel in the British Rail industry is not an oncoming train afterall.

[Simon Reed]

I'm also a bit surprised about this.

I can't claim to be an L&Y historian but I DO know that they tended to build with limited clearances wherever they could.

Other than Liverpool Docks, which was primarily London North Western or Mersey Docks and Harbour Board territory I can't think of where a Camelback might have operated, unless a "cut down" version was imported.

John - You're not thinking of the Mersey Railway Beyer Peacock machines are you? These had a Camelback outline and one - No 5 - "Cecil Raikes" - survives.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

I think the Eames system may have been used in Ireland. There was an accident there in the 19th century were a train had been divided but the rear portion ran away down a hil (the train had stalled on a hill and the crew had tried splitting it) and crashed into another, following train. It came out at the enquiry that as the type of vacuum brakes used required a vacuum to be created to apply the brakes. Thus the detached portion had no way of applying brakes once it was disconnected from the loco.

As a result of that accident all railways in Britain and Ireland were required to use automatic vacuum or air brakes for passenger trains (but not freighte, most of which remained without continuous brakes up till the 1960s!).

Perhaps this has been explained before, on this, or another thread. What is the difference between vacuum brakes and air brakes?

[BR60103]

Murphy:
Air brakes work by stuffing a lot of air into a pipe to keep the brakes off. A cylinder on the cars is filled with air. When the air is let out of the pipe, the air in the cylinder is used to press the brake shoes against the wheels.
Vacuum brakes work the same way, except that air is removed from the pipe and there is a cylinder of vacuum on each car.
The argument for air over vacuum, is that on Earth it is impossiblr to get more than something like 22 lbs pressure difference with a vacuum. (One atmosphere). Air can be compressed up to the limits of the machinery and the containers.

There is a story that when Britain was first contemplating automatic brakes, Westinghouse sent over a set and they were fitted to a train. A second train was fitted with vacuum. They were run over the same line and the brakes applied. The vacuum brakes stopped the train in a shorter distance.
One young engineer noticed that the air brakes had actually been applied to the wheels sooner, but the brakes on the vacuum system were bigger. The officials in charge declared that didn't matter; the name of the game was stopping the train and vacuum did it better.
Air brakes were still rare in the 1970s. (In 1976, one of the hump yards still had tracks designated Aberdeen Fitted and Aberdeen Unfitted -- coal wagos were still running without either type of continuous brakes.)

[John Bakeer]

Simon,
The loco trialled on the L&Y was a demo for the Eames vacuum brake, named Lovett Eames with a re-sited and modified cab over the firebox (still separating the crews by several feet). It also ran tests on the GNR and others but without attracting a buyer for the Eames brake and was finally sold for scrap in 1884, it's warning bell survived and may now be in someones collection.The primary reason for the Mother Hubbard/Camel Back design was for the inclusion of the Wooton firebox designed to burn low volatile/slow burning anthracite/culm found in Philadelphia. A successfull engineering solution , but operationally undesirable due to crew separation and in this case cooking the driver/engineer. a.k.a. the Leader.
The French Nord as well as the Italian FS tried samples of these US machines, but did not persue thier use.
John B.

[malcolmyoung]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

Simon,
it's warning bell survived and may now be in someones collection.John B.

The bell from "Lovatt Eames" was on display in the Science Museum in Kensington, London about 20 years ago. I don't know if it is still on display but I'm sure they will still have it in storage somewhere if it isn't on display.
Malc.

[daveklepper]

Camel-back Ten Wheelers (4-6-0 USA, 2-3-0 British) were regularly handling Central RR of New Jersey suburban trains out of Jersey City (ferry to Manhattan) through most of 1952 when they were replaced by Baldwin diesels.

[malcolmyoung]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Camel-back Ten Wheelers (4-6-0 USA, 2-3-0 British) were regularly handling Central RR of New Jersey suburban trains out of Jersey City (ferry to Manhattan) through most of 1952 when they were replaced by Baldwin diesels.

2-3-0 is French, not British. Here in Britain it is 4-6-0, the same as the U.S.A.
Malc.

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Perhaps this has been explained before, on this, or another thread. What is the difference between vacuum brakes and air brakes?

As usual,, I direct you towards Railway Technical where their brakes pages has more info on brakes than should be legal,, and there's pictures too,,,

http://www.railway-technical.com/air-brakes.html for air brakes
http://www.railway-technical.com/vacuum.html for vac brakes

[John Bakeer]

The last Mother Hubbards (7) were withdrawn by the CRRNJ. in 1954.
None were converted to run on third rail, and just 3 remain lurking in US museums.
John B.