British Railway Operations

[John Bakeer]

I recollect the last buses with two man/women crews were the London Routemasters that dated from the early fifties, the last regular service operated by these vehicles was withdrawn a few weeks ago amid a sad celebration. I believe a musuem route is still retained for tourists.
London Transport have recently introduced single manned Bendibuses to replace the Routemasters, but at sixty feet long, they are causing major traffic problems.
As far as I am aware there is no bus company in the UK currently operating two man buses in regular service.
On a recent trip to Blackpool I travelled on a double decker tram with a two man crew, there was a third person (possibly an inspector or instructor) operating the doors.
I take on board all the enlightening comments about the Leader and feel the subject (for me at least) has run out of steam. one puzzle remains, communication between driver and fireman?
John B.

[Hugh Jampton]

My guess is there was no communication. Communicate what?

The driver sits up front where he/she gets an unimpeded view of everything ahead (so there's no need for the fireperson to call out signals etc.), and the fireperson knows the route as well as the driver so does not need prompting as to when more or less steam is required due to hills and the like..

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

Regarding the manual level crossings, I live next to the Heart of Wales line. Our town level crossing has the standard four electrically-operated lowering barriers, but they're activated by the train crew. The driver stops the train next to a control box about 30 metres or so from the crossing, the guard climbs down and presses the button. The lights then flash for a short time before the barriers lower - the idea being that people can get clear of the crossing or stop before the barriers lower. The guard then rejoins the train which runs through, after it has passed the lights go out and the barriers raise. It's been like this ever since the original manned signalbox was abandoned (that's now on the station platform as a museum), originally there would have been the type of gates that David describes, operated by means of a large wheel in the corner of the box (looks not unlike an old sailing ship's wheel) and a selection of rods and pivots under the trackbed/roadway. I've only once seen a car get stuck on the crossing (clueless drivers are a worldwide problem!) but as the train was stationary it wasn't dangerous - the guard ended up helping them reverse it clear of the tracks!

In a situation like that, does the driver blow the horn at the crossing as well?

[Simon Reed]

You could be right, Hugh.

After all, Southern men were, by that stage, well versed in working EMU's on their own so the driver would'nt need any supplementary signal verification.

I still think there must have been some rudimentary communication though.

Amazing that in thinking about driver only operation I'd totally overlooked LUL. I was thinking about the inner and outer suburban services to places like Hampton Court, a place and concept that may bring tears to Hugh's eyes!

[zardoz]

I'm not very familiar with British operations, and have not been following this thread. But in looking for something else, I came across this site about UK rail stuff. I just thought you might like it (lots of good old pics if you scroll down past the text).

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sddt.co.uk/newsletters/NewsLetter%252021%2520Jan%25202005_files/image006.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sddt.co.uk/newsletters/NewsLetter%252021%2520Jan%25202005.htm&h=251&w=350&sz=14&tbnid=VioooTfOnSjXbM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=116&hl=en&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dplymouth%2Bvacuum%2B%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

Regarding the manual level crossings, I live next to the Heart of Wales line. Our town level crossing has the standard four electrically-operated lowering barriers, but they're activated by the train crew. The driver stops the train next to a control box about 30 metres or so from the crossing, the guard climbs down and presses the button. The lights then flash for a short time before the barriers lower - the idea being that people can get clear of the crossing or stop before the barriers lower. The guard then rejoins the train which runs through, after it has passed the lights go out and the barriers raise. It's been like this ever since the original manned signalbox was abandoned (that's now on the station platform as a museum), originally there would have been the type of gates that David describes, operated by means of a large wheel in the corner of the box (looks not unlike an old sailing ship's wheel) and a selection of rods and pivots under the trackbed/roadway. I've only once seen a car get stuck on the crossing (clueless drivers are a worldwide problem!) but as the train was stationary it wasn't dangerous - the guard ended up helping them reverse it clear of the tracks!

In a situation like that, does the driver blow the horn at the crossing as well?

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think they bother. It's straight, level track between the crossing and the control box, so they can see easily whether the line is clear. In the event of something blocking the line they'd just contact the signaller (dispatcher), say that they were stopped and why, given the next train wouldn't be for around four hours it would be unlikely to cause a problem. It's incredibly rare as I said - I've lived here for over 15 years now and can only recall one such incident. For a photo of the crossing see http://www.railcar.co.uk/pics/100-109/101/2/tc63.jpg - there's only a single track there now (the one on the right), trains now pass in the station itself rather than at the crossing. You can still see where the second line was as the barriers haven't been moved, so there's a sizable gap between the barriers and the remaining track.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

De Caso's big Nord 4-6-4s, classes 232R and 232S were styled somewhat like the Gresley A4, but as they operated with the smokebox cover removed had similarities with "**** o' the North" and Bullied's own pacific types.
.M636C

They operated with the smokebox cover removed, meaning the front of the smokebox? Sounds counter-productive to getting the exhaust to exit through the stack. I picture a loco running with its front end innards exposed to the elements.
[?]

Taking the Gresley A4 as the example, they had what was called a "Bugatti Nose", a flat sloping streamlined cover (based on French Bugatti railcars) outside a conventional smokebox. A crank handle was inserted in the side of the nose and turned and the flat sloping section opened as two clamshell like doors split horizontally and hinged top and bottom, revealing a conventional smokebox door inside. That was then opened to access the smokebox.

On the Nord 4-6-4s, the equivalent streamlined cover was just a large single steel plate, possibly clipped or bolted in place. This was soon discarded, leaving a gap in the streamlining revealing a recessed conventional smokebox door. This was generally similar, as I said, to the as designed appearance of "**** o' the North" as built (it was modified to look more like an A4) or the appearance of Bulleid's Pacifics as first built.

M636C

Aha! Now I get it, and found a photo of the Bugatti Nose here- http://www.lner.info/locos/A/a4.shtml
[:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I understand how the British have privatized their system now. The tracks are owned by one entity, and the trains by another. Can anyone explain, in layman's terms how this actually works? and is it working? Perhaps some of our forum members from over there could enlighten us. (Future Model-throttle back for a bit on this one-I know you're not British[:)]) Thanks

ANSWERS TO Qs IN ORDER:-

YES
YES AND MORE
NO
NO
THEY COULD TRY

There is an alternative history to this that I would love to publis...is anyone interested? (Be warned ... it goes back to the 1800s...

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

My brother has added some more pics of Worcester, England to his site, which show some of the variety of trains which can be seen there, alongside the fine collection of ex Great Western semaphore signals:-


http://www.roscalen.com/signals/Worcester/index.htm

Wow! Is that a neat link![:)] The signals have a great sort of* maritime flag* look about them.

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

I recollect the last buses with two man/women crews were the London Routemasters that dated from the early fifties, the last regular service operated by these vehicles was withdrawn a few weeks ago amid a sad celebration. I believe a musuem route is still retained for tourists.
London Transport have recently introduced single manned Bendibuses to replace the Routemasters, but at sixty feet long, they are causing major traffic problems.
As far as I am aware there is no bus company in the UK currently operating two man buses in regular service.
On a recent trip to Blackpool I travelled on a double decker tram with a two man crew, there was a third person (possibly an inspector or instructor) operating the doors.
I take on board all the enlightening comments about the Leader and feel the subject (for me at least) has run out of steam. one puzzle remains, communication between driver and fireman?
John B.

In fact, the Leader had a corridor up one side of the boiler linking the central cab with that at the smokebox end, and although I haven't checked this, I assume there was a passage to the cab at the bunker end as well. If you managed to get past the firebox which had only steel and firebrick between you and the fire, you then stumbled up a dark passageway (no windows) full of scrap steel castings as ballast which were trying to compensate for the off central boiler (off centre to allow for the passage, of course). I think I'd only do that in an emergency myself, but it was there in theory at least.

M636C

[Tulyar15]

M636C - you're right about the Leader's corridor - I think that is why the boiler was offset to one side.

Interesting before ill health forced his early retirement, RE Maunsell, Bulleid's predecessor on the Souther and Chief Mechanical Engineer had been considering building a class of small Beyer Garratts with a low axle weight for the Southern;'s lightly laid branches in SW England. I think it was to cover those sort of duties that the Leader was intended. (It was also for this reason that the Southern adopted the 1Co-Co1 wheel arrangement for its 3 prototype diesel locos, so as to give them a lower axle weight than the LMS ones which employed the same 16 cylinder 4-cycle English Electric engine but were Co-Co's. The 1Co-Co1 bogies Bulleid designed were subsequently used on the EE Class 40's and the BR built Sulzer engined "Peak" class.)

[Murphy Siding]

I just re-read a 15 year old article in Trains Magazine about some British railfanning. It mentioned The Settle & Carlisle Railway, that had Ribblehead Viaduct. The article made it seem that this line was somewhat on the endangerd list. Has anyone (probably Simon) been over this line? What is it like today? Thanks

[M636C]

There is an excellent series of books on British steam locomotives by the late Brian Haresnape, originally published by Ian Allan, and reprinted as recently as the mid 1990s with other imprint names. These each cover the locomotives from a particular chief mechanical engineer. Anyway, I pulled out his "Bullied Locomotives" (I've bought every one I've seen) and on page 79 there is a photo of "Leader" 36001 being dismantled, and there does appear to be a passage on the left side for the full length, past both the boiler and the water tank, although the text only mentions the corridor past the boiler.

The "Leader" names intended for these locomotives were probably those applied to "Battle of Britain" class Pacific locomotives, "Winston Churchill", "Lord Dowding" and so on, although these locomotives were complete before the "Leaders" themselves owing to the long development time.

M636C

[John Bakeer]

Hi Murphy,
The Settle and Carlisle is very much alive.
I nave Microsoft Train Simulator which features the S & C fron Carlisle to Settle.
Using MSTS add-ons ,it's possible to drive anything from FlyingfScotsman to a an SD70 along the route (clearances for the SD are a bit tight!).
The actual route is very much as the sim'. It is possible to obtain VCR/DVDs of the line both ancient and recent from Steam Powered Video at <www.spv.co.uk.>
Roll 'em.
John B.

[Anonymous]

murphy...the S&C is still with is and ironically sees so much freight traffic that they have had to shut the thing for a month to relay the track with the pounding from (imported) coal trains. Google (uk) the Settle and Carlisle and hits there are many.

worked absolute block with quite long sections. Have travelled Leeds to Appleby but not beyond.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

murphy...the S&C is still with is and ironically sees so much freight traffic that they have had to shut the thing for a month to relay the track with the pounding from (imported) coal trains. Google (uk) the Settle and Carlisle and hits there are many.

worked absolute block with quite long sections. Have travelled Leeds to Appleby but not beyond.

Quite a change from the 15 year old magazine article. The article made it sound like traffic back then was 6-8 trains a day, with a few of those being "short,light freight trains" Where does the coal get imported from? I'll bet it doesn't travel in 100 car unit trains of 100 ton cars, like it does here.[:)]

[Anonymous]

I think the coal comes in from Eastern Europe now - not 100% sure though. I do know it's nothing like as good as proper Welsh steam coal - the imported stuff is very dusty and doesn't burn too well, leaving a lot of ash when used in a domestic fireplace.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

murphy...the S&C is still with is and ironically sees so much freight traffic that they have had to shut the thing for a month to relay the track with the pounding from (imported) coal trains. Google (uk) the Settle and Carlisle and hits there are many.

worked absolute block with quite long sections. Have travelled Leeds to Appleby but not beyond.

Quite a change from the 15 year old magazine article. The article made it sound like traffic back then was 6-8 trains a day, with a few of those being "short,light freight trains" Where does the coal get imported from? I'll bet it doesn't travel in 100 car unit trains of 100 ton cars, like it does here.[:)]

The coal is imported thru the port of Hunterston in SW Scotland, on the Clyde estuary, and makes its way south over the S&C's former partner, the Glasgow and SW line (see one of my earlier posts for more info about the partnership of these lines). The lengths are about 20+. In the latest "Modern Railways" there's an article about how they're trying to increase the length of these trains. In the past the length of sidings at coal mines was the constraining factor, but with imported coal this is not a problem.

The S&C has just been closed for a month for emergency repairs as all these extra trains have caused a lot of wear on the track. It's closing again in July - which is annoying as I'm spending a week's vacation in Carlisle to go train watching in the last week in July.

Meanwhile Futuremodal will no doubt be delighted to hear that yet another OA operator has now got the go-ahead to haul coal down from Scotland. The infrastructure co Jarvis have now got an operating licence to run trains and will be running coal trains as well as maintenance trains. UK railfans will be pleased too as they'll be using class 56's (which EWS stopped using in 2004) so it will make a change from the all conquering 66's. The Jarvis 56's have been refurbuished by Brush and re-classified 56/3 with numbers starting at 56 301.

[mhurley87f]

Tulyar,

Thanks for the reply - it was indeed 6024, and she (or should it be he??) certainly looked good on the day.

The down run lost some time and, because priority hade to be given to service trains over the singled section between Cockett West and Dyffryn Crossing, she was about 45 to 50 minutes late passing Llandeilo Junction, Llanelli, and by then I was soaked to the skin.

To appease her indoors, and in a shameless attempt to regain Brownie Points, I offered to get the shopping that afternoon from our local Tesco Extra, totally forgetting that the Car Park that purports to serve that out of town shopping area is the nearest thing to the Bermuda Triangle - you can get in, but you never come out again.

It took me an hour and a quarter to get out of the car park (i.e. about 200 yards distance) and missed the return run by about 5 minutes !!!

Martin

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15


Meanwhile Futuremodal will no doubt be delighted to hear that yet another OA operator has now got the go-ahead to haul coal down from Scotland. The infrastructure co Jarvis have now got an operating licence to run trains and will be running coal trains as well as maintenance trains.

Does this mean Jarvis is both an infrastructure co, and a train operating co, on the same line? I thought they were supposed to be seperated?

[John Bakeer]

I lived in the south of Yorkshire through the 80's & Early 90's and witnessed the wholesale destruction of a modern, viable coal industry, just to satisfy blind political dogma. I can tell you the imported stuff is rubbish, it cakes, forms bridges in the bunkers and burns unevenly; therefore driving frustrated users into the oil/gas camp which proceeds to rip them off with high prices & unreliable supply. I could go on, but how do you give a dinosaur a headache? Kick it in the butt, because that's where its brain is.
John B.

[John Bakeer]

Tulyar was a race horse, it's also part of an underfeed stoker.
Just wondered where some of you guys get your handles.
John B

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15


Meanwhile Futuremodal will no doubt be delighted to hear that yet another OA operator has now got the go-ahead to haul coal down from Scotland. The infrastructure co Jarvis have now got an operating licence to run trains and will be running coal trains as well as maintenance trains.

Does this mean Jarvis is both an infrastructure co, and a train operating co, on the same line? I thought they were supposed to be seperated?

That was how it was supposed to be , although EWS and the other OA companies make a lot of money from infrastructure contracts. I suppose we're progressing back towards a vertically integrated set up. Stagecoach the bus company owns Porterbrook, the Rolling Stock co. To be fair Porterbrook is the only ROSCO that has taken speculative risks by order trains before it has found a user for them. The other two ROSCO's are owned by the banks and just act like profit maximizing monopolists (but in the longer term they will face competition from manufacturers leasing stock to train operators).

I agree with John B's comments about the foreign coal. On the Avon Valley Railway (which I am a volunteer worker on) we had a duff batch a couple of weeks ago. Ironically it blocked the tubes of our Polish "Ferrum" 0-6-0T.

John B - you are quite correct about "Tulyar" - it was (is!) the name of my favourite "Deltic" diesel loco.

[John Bakeer]

Hi Tulyar,
That's true, The Deltic was named after the Dobbin.
John B.

[John Bakeer]

Isambard,
Re. Buggatti nose.
Buggatti built an experimental high speed railcar for the FS (Italian Federal Railways).
I saw an item on TV a couple of nights ago about Buggatti showing it in a museum somewhere.
Whether it was coincidence, or one copying the other? I do not know.
Perhaps enlightenment is out there?
John B.

[John Bakeer]

Re. Leader communications,
I recently reaad a book by a retired locomotive engineer (driver, my father was a member of the institute of locomotive engineers-he designed them!) where he refered to many instances of crews not being on speaking terms and working many trips without uttering a word, but they were in the same cab where a gesture would suffice.
John B.

[Simon Reed]

It seems to have been a worldwide thing during steam days that many drivers (engineers) considered themselves to be an elite who would have as little as possible to do with firemen (stokers) both on and off the job.

I have a book by a Southern (UK) driver who rose through the ranks and recalls instances where the only conversation he had during out-and-back turns as a fireman took the form of grunts!

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

It seems to have been a worldwide thing during steam days that many drivers (engineers) considered themselves to be an elite who would have as little as possible to do with firemen (stokers) both on and off the job.

I have a book by a Southern (UK) driver who rose through the ranks and recalls instances where the only conversation he had during out-and-back turns as a fireman took the form of grunts!

Didn't most engineers during steam days work their way up.....from being firemen? You would think that a fireman who wasn't being treated well could make an engineer look bad?

[John Bakeer]

Hi Murphy, Simon,
This gets worse! I've just found an HO model by Mantua of a Philidelphia camel back 4-6-0 froim the 1890's. How did they manage to communicate?
John B.

[John Bakeer]

Hi Tulyar,
Just loaded No 55015 onto my Train Sim. and I am going to give it a run on the ECML from Peterborough to Welling.
John B.