What is your favorite mountain grade?

[Modelcar]

...AJ....I never have run down any more pic's of the tunnel situation we were discussing back a few weeks ago....and the above post reminded me of the subject again. If one thinks of the site there at the new bridge {by the Caboose}...and how the two tunnels {Allegheny and Gallitizin}, compared even before the work was completed to double track the {which ever one that is} back in the late 90's....The entrance to the one {out of service now}, was so much smaller than the other one...again making me wonder if it really was or was not double tracked years ago....

[Anonymous]

I've seen all the grades mentioned before,Altoona is tops,Tehachipi next. Fast frieghts in New Mexico and west Texas for flat out speed in empty spaces. All were spell binding.

[emmar]

Stampede Pass is NUMBER 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Anonymous]

Chama to Cumbres on the Cumbres and Toltec Scenic RR. Predictable schedule. Easy to follow. Lots of places to see the action. Plus magnificent steam engines working hard up a 4% grade!

[tmcc man]

I think that the horse shoe curve is the best, i am going to it over the summer and will hopefully get some shots and put them up

[ajmiller]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edbenton

It was Conrail that modified ythe tunnels so they could run DS on that route.

We were aware of Conrail modifiying the tunnels for double stacks, but I am unsure of when the New Portage Tunnel was single tracked. It had been double tracked under PRR. The New Portage was single track for quite some time before Conrail modified the tunnels in the mid 1990's. I was speculating that PRR or its successors single tracked the tunnel to get better clearances for tall cars. Conrail took up one of the four tracks between Altoona and Gallitzin around 1981, so there was no need for four tracks through the tunnels anyway.

[edbenton]

It was Conrail that modified ythe tunnels so they could run DS on that route.

[Anonymous]

How can you not be a fan of the Moffat??
The big ten curves right outside of Denver. Awesome views at Plain(view). The tunnel (enough said) and Fraser, Gore, and Byers canyon. Wow. Then go up the branch to P'burg and see your train winding behind you. There is no bad time to watch there.
The grade between Tabernash and Winter Park is still enough to give the big AC's problems even today. And there is nothing like the sound of 6 AC4400CW's giving all they've got.
And for all you main-liners who like fast trains blowing by you, you can watch between Sulphur and Flat and see all the trains go past a 50 + MPH.
The Moffat has it all.

[Anonymous]

Surprised nobody mentioned Bozman Pass in Montana, x NP xBN now MRL least from BNSF Who has trackage rights.

railwayray

LOVE THAT BNSF

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by germanese

There are too many really to pick one. Stampede pass, Tennessee pass, Cajon they are all good. If I had to pick one though, it would be The Horseshoe curve which includes the Gallitzin tunnel nearby.

Glad you mentioned Stampede Pass, lived there in 40's.
Dad operated the ventilation system on Stampede Tunnel.

[Anonymous]

cajon pass, i regularly watch trains there, and me and my friend who is a pilot, we flew through there and landed at a tiny air port, and the tracks were only 100ft away from the strip, now that is cool. and convinent

[passengerfan]

Must add one more to my favorites. For the first time crossing Tehachapi the other day I witnessed a train on the loop that was long enough to pass over itself. It was a UP general merchandise descending to Bakersfield. Have seen other trains on Tehachapi many times but first I ever witnessed on the loop.

[scissorbill]

My favorite is (was) the Graham County RR grade coming up from the
Southern interchange in the Nantahala Gorge. Their Shays put on the best show I have seen.

[douglasm]

Stevens Pass, WA on the BNSF (GN). It's resonably accessable, Skykomish has a neat little motel to base out of, and the National Forest Service has built a nifty interperative center near the west portal of the old tunnel at the Wellington townsite.

[Modelcar]

aj....Took a look at the web sites you presented and the track layout plans....and I agree with you of what it shows....If I find anything to clear the thought up {of Allegheny might have been 2 tracks}, I'll bring it on here...Thanks for the response.

[ajmiller]

This site: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/
has some nice track diagrams of the Gallitzin area.

In particular: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/ar.gif
which also shows 2 tracks in the New Portage Tunnel, but one each in the Gallitzin and Allegheny Tunnel. The diagram appears to be dated for 1948.

[ajmiller]

Modelcar:
This site has some pictures of the tunnels:
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/gallitzin.html

Most of the pix are relatively recent, but there was one showing two tracks through the New Portage Tunnel. I guess PRR or PC or CR went back to one track to get better height clearances. See this pic for the New Portage Tunnel. The web page says it's the west portal.
http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr5795.jpg

I still haven't found a pic of the old Allegheny Tunnel with two tracks. Post a link if you find one.

Some other good websites are:
http://kc.pennsyrr.com/

and this one which has some interesting pictures of the Gallitzin area.
http://www.gallitzin.info/

[Modelcar]

U-1073....I tried 3 times to catch some activity there at Saluda...waiting up to 4 hrs. and never was successful....That would have been a blast to see and hear. I tried. I agree, that place is almost unbelievable...I stood at the edge of town there on the ROW and looked DOWN the grade and had a hard time understanding what I was seeing...for a railroad...!

[Modelcar]

...aj...Go to Google and simply go to a generic Pennslvania Railroad photo web site and look around...I am relatively sure I have found some photos of older operations there at the tunnels and showing Allegheny Tunnel as double tracked....

[unit1073]

Saluda. I had the opportunity to watch the regular freight service and also caught 611 coming up the grade - slow but steady. I've been to Horseshoe Curve and agree that the traffic keeps you occupied, but when you have 3 units pulling at the most 15-20 cars, that's mountain railroading. The Clinchfield loops are pretty spectacular also.

[ajmiller]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

ajmiller: In my above post I was referring to the line that came up around Mule Shoe Curve to attain the summit and go on west...and of course it went through the New Portage Tunnel.....but that line was in addition to the four tracks that came up around Horse Shoe...and I'm sure you are aware of that. Of course it joined one of those 4 tracks there at the tunnel and it's traffic then was on one of those 4 tracks to continue.

Yeah, that's right. The whole Mule Shoe line was called the New Portage Secondary which was built by the state of Pennsylvania in 1855. The PRR bought it in 1857 and ripped up the tracks but then relaid them in 1903. Conrail ripped them out for good in 1981. At the eastern portal of the tunnels trains could go from the New Portage line to either the Allegheny Tunnel or the New Portage Tunnel.

QUOTE:
One comment: I believe the Allegheny Tunnel WAS in the past a double track tunnel and then was later converted to single track when as the other tunnel right beside it was still in use....and then when double stacks came along and needed to get through...NS redid the Allegheny to allow double stacks to fit through the bore...Again using double track....That was back in the 90's...if memory serves me correctly. Of course at the same time the tunnel right beside it was taken out of service...The one you said had icicles hanging in it....

You might be right about the Allegheny Tunnel, because it was always a bit wider than the Gallitzin Tunnel, but from the pictures of it that I've seen, I have a hard time believing that two trains could fit in it side by side.

From somewhere on the internet, I downloaded a scan of a 1958 track diagram for the PRR between Pittsburgh and Altoona. At Gallitzin it shows track 4 through the Gallitzin Tunnel, track 3 through the Allegheny Tunnel, and tracks 1 and 2 through the New Portage Tunnel. As with the old Allegheny Tunnel, I have a hard time believing that two trains could fit side by side in the New Portage Tunnel.

[GP40-2]

ajmiller, thanks for the post. I completely forgot about the New Portage Tunnel.

[Modelcar]

ajmiller: In my above post I was referring to the line that came up around Mule Shoe Curve to attain the summit and go on west...and of course it went through the New Portage Tunnel.....but that line was in addition to the four tracks that came up around Horse Shoe...and I'm sure you are aware of that. Of course it joined one of those 4 tracks there at the tunnel and it's traffic then was on one of those 4 tracks to continue.
One comment: I believe the Allegheny Tunnel WAS in the past a double track tunnel and then was later converted to single track when as the other tunnel right beside it was still in use....and then when double stacks came along and needed to get through...NS redid the Allegheny to allow double stacks to fit through the bore...Again using double track....That was back in the 90's...if memory serves me correctly. Of course at the same time the tunnel right beside it was taken out of service...The one you said had icicles hanging in it....

[ajmiller]

QUOTE: Originally posted by GP40-2

The 4 track PRR main split eastbound just before the summit. 3 tracks went through the Gallizten Tunnels, and 1 track went through the Allegheny Tunnel. Grades and elevation varied only slightly between the tunnels.

Shortly after exiting mountain on the east slope, both lines came back together to form a 4 track main down the Allegheny Front and around Horseshoe curve.

There are three tunnels at Gallitzin. The southern most track, track 1, went through the shortest tunnel which is called the 'New Portage Tunnel'. The Allegheny Tunnel and Gallitzin Tunnel are located a little bit to the north of the New Portage Tunnel.
The Allegheny Tunnel was built in 1854 and is 3600 feet long. The Gallitzin Tunnel is the same length as the Allegheny Tunnel and was built in 1904. The New Portage Tunnel was built in 1855 and is 1600 feet long.

Both the Allegheny Tunnel and Gallitzin Tunnel were single track until the mid 1990's when the Allegheny tunnel was widened to make room for two tracks and deepened (or hightened) to make room for double stacks. Both tracks 2 and 3 today use the Allegheny Tunnel and the Gallitzin Tunnel is trackless and dormant and has nice long icicles hanging down from the roof at the opening of the tunnel.

Some old track diagrams show two tracks through the New Portage Tunnel, but today there is only one, and I've always thought that the tunnel was only big enough to hold one track anyway. Maybe if there were two tracks, they were gauntleted or had tight clearances such that only one track could be used at one time. The New Portage is used mostly by eastbounds because of a steep grade that connects the eastern portal down to the level of the other two tracks.

[ajmiller]

The Mule Shoe line also went through Gallitzin. Rail maps show several PRR lines that went up the Allegheny Ridge, but some of them where branches with no connection to other PRR lines on their western ends. Those branches are all gone today.

There was a branch from Bellwood, a town east of Altoona, that ran up the mountain to Irvona where it may have connected with another PRR branch that ran from Cresson to Irvona and beyond. The line from Bellwood is gone, but some of the Cresson to Irvona line is operated by RJ Corman today.

Another branch split off from the PRR Bald Eagle line just north of Tyrone and went up the ridge to Phillipsburg Pa and on to Clearfield but had no western connection to any other PRR lines. This branch is mostly gone except that Corman has the line from Clearfield to Phillipsburg wich connects to a former NYC branch at Clearfield. The Bald Eagle line is still in use and operated by the Nittany and Bald Eagle RR and sometimes used by NS coal trains.

A third branch ran from the Bald Eagle line just south of Milesburg and ran up the ridge to Snow Shoe Pa., but was also a dead end branch and is long gone. The NYC Beech Creek line also went through Snow Shoe but I don't know if they interchanged with PRR there or not. The Beech Creek line ran from Jersey Shore Pa. to Clearfield and Phillipsburg via Snow Shoe. Part of this line between Wallaceton (a point on the line between Clearfield and Phillipsburg) and Snow Shoe might rebuilt to access a proposed landfill in northwest Centre County if the landfill is permitted. Local residents are fighting the landfill though. Can't really blame them.

The only other line I can think of that would actually bypass the summit at Gallitzin is the branch that splits off from the Buffalo line (former PRR Philadelphia & Erie line) at Driftwood and goes westward to DuBois. From DuBois the line runs south and west to the Allegheny River and then south along the river toward Mahoning and Freeport. What's left of that route west of Driftwood went to the Pittsburg & Shawmut (No h in Pittsburg & Shawmut?) which is now today part of Buffalo & Pittsburgh.

These are all the PRR routes I can think of that went west over the Alleghenies.

[bnsfkline]

Kirkwood hill is mine

[GP40-2]

The 4 track PRR main split eastbound just before the summit. 3 tracks went through the Gallizten Tunnels, and 1 track went through the Allegheny Tunnel. Grades and elevation varied only slightly between the tunnels.

Shortly after exiting mountain on the east slope, both lines came back together to form a 4 track main down the Allegheny Front and around Horseshoe curve.

You may be thinking about the 5 track main the PRR had between Pittsburgh and Johnstown. Just east of Pittsburgh, 2 tracks went up the Allegheny and Conemaugh river valleys to Johnstown (the longer low grade water level route), and 3 tracks went directly through the steep hills to Greensburg and then on to Johnstown. The two lines rejoined in Johnstown to form the 4 track main up the west slope of the Front.

[Modelcar]

...Old Timer: There was another route up and over {through the top}, of the Alleghenies from Hollidaysburg to Gallitzin via the "Mule Shoe Curve"....and that was abandoned some years ago....and later Pennsylvania highway RT. 22 used part of the alignment to build down over the mountain in that area...and part of it may be used as a trail yet....Don't know if anything on that has been started....and I thought the grade was pretty close to the "other route" up over there better known as the route up around Horseshoe....@ 1.8%....

[Anonymous]

GP40-2 -

Don't have the comparative tonnage figures at hand, but know that N&W had to move 2500 loads of coal across Alleghany per day plus an equal number of empties west; plus the time freights and passenger trains, plus the time freights and passenger trains off the Bristol Line.

And didn't Pennsy move a lot of tonnage around Gallitzin summit on that low-grade line?

Locomutt - back in 'ought-59, I rode IC 2613 through the tunnel on Muldraugh hill. It fit the tunnel about like a bullet fits a gun barrel.

Nice little engine.

Old Timer