Why are GE locomotives better than EMD?

[Anonymous]

Wabash,Had another incident with a Dash-9 the other day.We had a 7100 ft long 7000 ton Denver-Linclon.The lead dash-9 went belly up on us and no matter what we did couldn't get it running again.Even talked to field support and they said their was nothing they could do to help.They also said they've been having lots of problems with the dash-9s lately.Anything from computor problems to fuel and electrical faults.To many and to numerious to list here.The only thing that keep us from going dead in the water was a good old reliable EMD SD40-2.It brought us to town,not fast but it kept on working.Dash-9 was put in service in June of 1999.The SD40-2 was put in service may of 1980! Keith

[wabash1]

the way i see it is the people with there simple ge mind posting replys as to what is best. every dash 8 and 9 we run on the ns is junk. the emd are still running. the ge engines are down if you look you will see non- airconditioned emd engines pulling trains. if emd is to go by the way then so be it. this was a post as what was better. and from a shop forman to a engineer to conductor its plain to see what works. ge flooded the market with its dash 9 junk sure sales get revenue and looks good on the bottom line while gm set there. now the quality is showing up with units down. that will drop your stock prices. better pull out now while you have a chance. at first i like the room and how quiet a new wide body was but it only takes 6 months for them to rattle apart. and ride rough. i hope we dont lose emd but i wont waste my time worring about it. they pay me to run the junk so i will. but i dont think we will run out of 2 stroke engines as they are still going and will be around for awhile.

[Anonymous]

Sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience.I know on the RR I work for in the past waybills have been lost and its a simple matter to just get replacements from the proper sorces.What this crew did was unexcusable and was totally unproper.It was a shame that this crew did this and gives us hard working responsible operations employees a black eye. One thing we do need to clear up is the fact that engineers are not responsible for any of the paper work that goes along with train or car movements .Thats why there are conductors,switch formen.

[Anonymous]

One more observation...regarding loading-up, those were good points you brought up, but in the real world of rail-roading, a slow loading locomotive can be a real disaster so to speak. We still make the occasional 'drop' or 'dutch-drop' to get our cars and engines in the right position as you probably have encountered your-self. Unless you have a hill or something to help you, or a runaround track, you're 'toast' with some on these 4-strokes etc...Hommie

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your comments. When someone posts something as a response to a posting of mine I can only assume that it is directed toward my statements.

I DO know that the majority of crews are honest and hard working. But there are some who are not. And I was on the receiving end of one such crew. According to the "facts" that the lawyers were able to determine, the crew of the local which delivers in this area, lost the waybill and certificate of analysis for one particular covered hopper. Recognizing that the car was in the number series that includes cars assigned to deliver to us, this crew photocopied legitimate documents with this railcar's reporting marks and numbers replacing the numbers on the actual documents. The car was then delivered to us, and since it contained a non human consumption grade of the same material that we use, it passed the id tests. We unloaded and released the car. In the meantime the crew found the real papers, and merrily delivered the empty car to the actual consignee. Because the material was a different grade than we use it caused us a lot of processing problems. We went back to the manufacturer with the car number and with the certificate of analysis. As you can imagine they got upset, not least because the customer who was supposed to get the carload was on their case for sending an empty car. After we determined that we were all talking about the same carload, the three of us then took what we knew to the railroad. They were mystified as the only place where the false documents were on file was with the delivery made to us. None of the intermediate yards had the car being consigned to us, and the proper papers were delivered with the car to the actual condignee two days after we released it as empty. It was months before we were able to sort out what had really happened. But in the meantime, since we manufacture products for human consumption we had to scrap everything that was in production at our plant and pay the landfill fees. We had to shut down and clean EVERYTHING out. We even had to scrap some of our equipment because it was more expensive to clean than to replace. And we have had the Federal Agencies on our backs ever since because we did not immediately recognize falsified documents. We were out over a million dollars cash plus lost production, the other company lost about two weeks of production and had to lay off their people for that time because they did not have material. The crew that did this, they got a couple of days off without pay. So yes, conductors and engineers can and have produced falsified documentation.

As I stated I do know that very, very few crews would do this. A fact for which I am thankful. I know that this problem is not particular to railroads, the recent news about food and drug recalls shows that the same problem is present in my business also. I wi***hat we all would be more willing to turn in the "bad actors" in our businesses, but it seems to be human nature to avoid confronting problems as long as possible.

I know that railroading is physically and emotionally difficult work. I have a number of relatives who have worked or currently work for a railroad, including my brother who is a conductor. My hat is off to you all. While I do enjoy watching railroaders producing safe and efficient transportation service on a magnificant scale, I recognize that it is not something that I personally want to do for a living.

[Anonymous]

Wow wait a sec. I can't speak for Wabash but I don't think his comments were directed towards you.I know mine wern't.
Conductors and engineers don't produce falsified documentation.In fact they don't produce any documentation at all just pass along what is given to them.On the RR I work for everything is done by computer anyway the days of passing along a waybill are long gone.
As far as GE being one of the top companies around? Maybe,thanks to Jack Walsh(sorry if I have his name spelled wrong).But before his tenure as Pres. they weren't and since his retirement?Well time will tell.GE is a huge corporation that does many things and does them right, but the fact of the matter is that their locomotive product leaves alot to be desired.Just talk to the RR shop personel,and the people who operate their equipment.We are the ones who have to live with managements decisions.Along with you as a customer.Keith

[Anonymous]

You certainly did not see in my writing that I stated that railroads produce anything but transportation (unless it is bad will from the ineptitude and malice of a few of its engineers and conductors, they have cost us millions of dollars in product recalls and lost production because of falsified documentation provided with delivered railcars, but that is not just a railroad problem I have had the same experience with truckers). The service I purchase off of railroad, and trucking companies, is not provided to me by the shop personnel as you infer. I do not and will not directly pay for repairs of any transportation equipment. It is not my concern. I pay for transportation, period.

I have NEVER stated, or implied, that I am a locomotive engineer. I am, as I said, a customer. And that makes me one of the people who ultimately pays the wages of the true railroaders. Nor do I claim to be a major customer, we receive 5 to 10 carloads a week. And yes, I am also currently an investor in rail stocks, and so in effect, a boss of your management. As a customer I do not care at all who's locomotives are providing the power, so long as my raw materials arrive on time. As an investor it also does not matter to me who's locomotives are purchased, as long as it is the best all around financial deal. And right now that appears to be GE.

As to your last sentence, if you have indeed invested your retirement with GM stock instead of GE stock I feel very sorry for you. I expect that you will be working for many, many more years. GM has been very poorly managed, while GE is extolled by the experts as one of the best run companies in the world, if not the absolute best. Don't take my word for it, do your own research and prove me wrong. You will not be able to. GM does now appear to be turning a corner and improving its operations. If this extends to EMD great, it will only be for everyone's benefit. But it appears that EMD is not in GM's future.

In spite of what you and many other people in this thread say, your management is not stupid. They must purchase the best all around locomotives available in order to stay in business, and keep their and your jobs. So even if these locomotives are not perfect in the view of the engineers, there are many other factors (such as initial price, financing, bundling of services, and responsibility for repairs) which is currently is making GE locomotives a superior investment to GM locomotives. The number of locomotives sold by each tells this story very well.

Call me and the few other reasonable people on this thread any names you want, if it makes you feel better. That will not alter the hard financial facts, which you seem unwilling or unable to acknowledge. But consider, if you must resort to name calling to make a point, then it is obvious that you do not have a valid point to make.

[Anonymous]

lol, love the way it lights up the country side at night.Have gotten calls from the DS saying our train was on fire when he got calls from the police. I also forgot how GE's ruin a pair of gloves in no time flat from all the leaking oil.

[wabash1]

keith is right but he forgot one thing... the fire ball and dropped load from the ge.

[wabash1]

as i have read what this guy is trying to say to us its painfully clear. he reads magazines and tries to dazzel us with bs, but he tryed to make a point. only it was way off. the railroads dont produce anything. they provide a service. and that service is carried out by the engine service personel. the shops told me that all the ge are breaking down the new ones are worse than the older ones. if that is a great investment then im glad my money isnt with ge. and will never be.

[wabash1]

with out reading anymore i stopped to answer you. i dont have time to talk to you as i have spent the last 6 days running ge . 11-12 hr days and 2 relief jobs at 11 hr going after crews that dogged on ge engines. amazing the emd guys can make it in.

[Anonymous]

Hommie,What Ptt100 said is pure horse crap.A two cycle Emd will load to full throttle 1-8 8 being full throttle faster then A GE four cycle can go from 1-2. Who are you going to believe? A real locomotive engineer or a idiot who sits at a desk? You decide.Keith

[Anonymous]

Lionel RR

[Anonymous]

If EMD does cease building new locomotives I doubt that it will be long before you see someone else jump into the 2nd builder slot. Yes it takes mega bucks to be a "do everything well and do it ourselves" builder like EMD and GE. But there are a number of builders in the US who already make a living off of assembling locomotives diesel engines, alternators, and controls from other manufacturers. It doesn't take the same level of investment to be an assembler as to be a totally integrated builder. So the field is much easier to enter than you might suppose.

If EMD is out of the picture and someone were to build locomotives using say, Caterpiller engines, Kato alternators, Woodward controls, etcetera, I am sure that one of the Big Four would give the upstart an order. To shake up GE, if for nothing else. As long as EMD is extant as a builder, looking for someone else is unnecessary.

[Anonymous]

In the Old Ma Bell Tellephone days, Ma Bell carefully evaluated purchesed products and bought product from several sources even if one was clearly superior. I think the RRs are foolish if they strictly buy one brand. If GE becomes the sole source of RR Loc., it will quickly degenerate to much less than anthing EMD presently offers.

[Anonymous]

Well, I do read but I don't pretend and in fact I have been on one or two. And " I know nothing, NOTHING"

[Anonymous]

I'm somewhat familure with electrical loading so that is why I posed the question of 2 vs. 4 stroke. I wouldn't think it would make much different except perhaps the different engines torque curves. By the way, I've learned a lot in this thread and I must say it is one of the most "colorful" in a long time

[Anonymous]

well i sure cant argue with you on that point

[Anonymous]

AND THAT'S NO ****!!!!!

[Anonymous]

Well, O.K., Everybody has their favorites. Myself, I like ALCO's. BUT... Let's not forget AMERICA, yes these United States. General Motors moved all locomotive production to Canada about 10 years ago. General Electric still builds their locomotives in Erie, Pennsylvania. (U.S.A.)!!!
All you "Republican-types" out there are probably in favor of exploiting the difference in exchange rates, and cheaper labor. Well, as a "Blue-collar man", (and by the way, "blue-collars run the railroads you all so much admire), I must say, in today's "Bush economy", we need all the business we can get. (U.S.A.that is,) So, if GE employes U.S. workers at Erie, and G.M. employes Canadian workers at London, Ontario, I say BUY AMERICAN!!!
What's next? "Hyundai" locomotives from Korea?
Don't laugh, it's just around the corner......
Meanwhile, where is the American worker? Look for the one-time skilled tradesman flipping burgers at Mc Donalds. He won't have a decent job anymore.....Just trying to make ends meet at minimum wage.
Todd C.

[Anonymous]

It sounds like you have alot of anger. You know jelousy is a terrible thing. Why don't you stop trying to belittle others and start trying to get layed. Don't get discouraged; with an attitude like yours it may take awhile.

[Anonymous]

If you are as inteligent as you claim to be stop being a pr-ck and enlighten us. You know, dazzel us with your briliance and stop trying to baffle us with your B.S. How about some refutable evidence of your knowledge.

[Anonymous]

we dont hate you dan,but i have a problem with people who only read magazines and have never been on an engine,that think they know more than i do

[Anonymous]

Just an observation...It looks like some folks favor 2 stokes over 4 and vice versa. Does the prime mover have that much bearing on performance?
Please don't hate me, I'm not railroad man but I do like trains. Things could be worse...be in aviation like me.

[favuprailroadfan]

Ok, First of all. I am not an ignorant railfan. I know my stuff, but I am not around it as much anymore as I used to. If things have changed, then so be it. I do know stuff about railroad operation. I am not as dumb as you think I am. I have been around them all my life. Our family are railroaders. I have learned everything about them. I know more than they do. Now, you may not think that, but until you know who I really am, don't look down on me and everybody else. Oh and one more thing, I am not into model railroading. So stick it up your ***.

Dru

[Anonymous]

The point that you individuals who say that you are locomotive engineers completely miss is that the railroads do not exist for your benefit. The railroads, like any business, are for the benefit of the customers and the investors. Whether the commodity is hauled by EMD or by GE or by mule is immaterial. What counts is that the material arrives on time. As a customer I can say that if the railroad doesn't deliver, I can very easily have my business sent by truck. And as a customer it does not matter who's locomotive is pulling my freight.

The railroad company investors require a return for the loan of their money. The railroads must get the maximum benifit from the funds they have available. If that means that they purchase locomotives that are not the favorite of the engineers because the economics are more favorable then it is obvious that the "best" locomotive is not the one that is the favorite of the engineers. If the railroads do not maximize the return on investment then the investors will take their money elsewhere, leaving many of you without jobs. And as an investor I have before, and will again remove my money from rail stock and bonds if the returns are not there.

[favuprailroadfan]

EMD does pass Tier 2 emissions in 2002. Why should GE have to wait until 2005? Sounds like they are having problems figuring how to keep those engines for belching all that smoke. Maybe GE should EMD power plants so the GE's could be more reliable.

[Anonymous]

While I have'nt read all the swipes going on in this 'thread', I'm sure that anyone who has actually worked on and around various locomotives will readily tell you that any 4 stroke engine, whether Dash 9's all the way down to the old Alco's I also had the great misfortune to be around, are giant pieces of s*** compared to the 2 stroke EMD's. The SD-70's for instance are far better in the time it takes to 'load-up', get into 'dynamic' braking etc. than any 4 stroke. These are the real issues confronting the real people who have to depend on good equipment to make the job go as easily and quickly as possible. All other debate between 'rail-fans' is just so much 'fodder', and not of any real consequence in the real world....Hommie

[Anonymous]

what railroad did he say he was with anyway?

[BRAKIE]

Well,I see you are like most that get caught.You say you have this or that degree,I truely doubt that..But I will give you a benifit of a doubt and say you do.What ever business your in it's surely not railroading...Again you have proven that.Anybody with a computer or a pile of books can point out the high tech stuff.This is very common.I will leave you with this,you need to find out what you are missing that gives you away...LOOSER...Do have a nice day...