Why are GE locomotives better than EMD?

[samfp1943]

Switcher#326

Sorry big thumbs. Anyway I work on the RR. One thing you come to learn is loads and hauling power. EMD loco's are better because when your switching a track or what have you it is about 20 cars or less quick loading is great, gets the work done quicker. But when your on the road dragging a intermodal or 60 car mixed freight train or a 110 car grain train, slow loading is a must (even AC motors wheel slip). Because slow loading will get your train moving faster. So all in all there is every tool for the job.

Seems we are living in the Time of the Zombies!

Resurrecting this thread from 10 years ago (give or take?) just tends to illustrate some of the "Which came first arguments" of Rail Fan Hobbyists.       One of the oldest being," who builds the best locomotives"  dates from" way-back times.."

 I think it was in November when TRAINSNewswire published a piece on 'Tier 3'  (NOV. 30, 2012, to be exact!)

  "General Electric Tier 3 locomotives suffer engine fires"

Published: November 30, 2012

"...CHICAGO – General Electric locomotives constructed in 2012 with the new Tier 3 locomotive emissions have been suffering major engine fires recently. The locomotives differ from Tier 2 engines in many ways including higher pressure fuel lines, which are reportedly operated at 20,000psi. These lines have been prone to break, spraying the prime mover with fuel which subsequently catches fire.

"General Electric is working with all customers who received Tier 3 locomotives in 2012 to correct the situation."

Railroads have taken differing approaches to the usage of the engines in the interim until repairs can be made. BNSF Railway continues to use the locomotives on trains, but has restricted affected engines from leading trains. Union Pacific has taken a more conservative approach and temporarily stored their affected Tier 3 locomotive until modifications can be made. Repairs are performed at various Class I locomotive shops and temporary facilities setup by GE to expedite the repairs, such as the temporary tent at Union Pacific’s Global 4 intermodal facility near Joliet, Ill., to work on affected UP locomotives..."

Tier 3 locomotives are the current technology units prescribed by the Feds for adherance to their standards for locomotive compiance with Clean Air (Emissions)  rules.   Tier 4 is the next phase, and is being implemented by a number of means ( from addatives, to smaller/mulitple engine power applications, de-rating,etc.)

General Electric and EMD (now Caterpillar) and some smaller manufacturers are going head to head to fill these new Federal mandated goals.  Caterpiller is new to this competition, having bought out what was left of the former pieces of EMD, anf its previous incarnations). General Electric through the last few years, I think it is safe to say been hammering the competitionin many areas, not to mention their willingness to operate Customer Responsive, Customer Service methods to help their Locomotive Clientele, while EMD seemed to be somewhat pubically unresponsie to their Customer Base.  GE "was kicking their butts" .  It sort of came across that the only reason to buy EMD was to keep GE from raising their prices to much higher levels (?)

 Randy Stahl ( back in a 2004 Posting) made a similar argument on the Customer Service aspect of this " Chicken and Egg" argument..

 

  Since he's the Professional, I'd have to leave that argument with his expertise...

[Switcher#326]

Sorry big thumbs. Anyway I work on the RR. One thing you come to learn is loads and hauling power. EMD loco's are better because when your switching a track or what have you it is about 20 cars or less quick loading is great, gets the work done quicker. But when your on the road dragging a intermodal or 60 car mixed freight train or a 110 car grain train, slow loading is a must (even AC motors wheel slip). Because slow loading will get your train moving faster. So all in all there is every tool for the job.

[Switcher#326]

Think about EMD l

[Anonymous]

I know this is a little out of sequence, but I was just reading some of the posts about the suit vs. labor issue, and the college degree issue, and I have just a few points to make.

You can't learn how to railroad in college, you can't learn it from a book, or by watching videos. The only way you can really learn how to railroad is by railroading. I know you can go to college and become a conductor or dispatcher, but that is not railroading.

Look at the current situation the UP is in right now. No crews No locomotives, No trains, because some college boy thought he could save money by cutting of operating employees.

You know it was some college boy who thought it would be great to cut off engineers in favor of remote controls. Do you know that right now in Denver, CO, trains are being sent to North Platte, NE just to be switched, and then brought back because the remotes can't keep up.

Now who really needs the education. College boy

[Anonymous]

To quote the former CMO of the railroad I work for. GE's suck. They suck to run, they suck to work on, they suck to ride on. The only thing a GE is good for is being melted down and used to buld an emd. Railroads all over the country run EMD's that are thirty, forty, and fifty years old. Nobody but museums will look at a GE. A railroad near me once leased six GE-8's. They used three to run trains, and the other three for parts to keep the ones running trains going. This is not a joke. They actually leased three spare engines just for parts. Thats how reliable a GE is.

I think anyone who has had a look at the new SD-70ACe will agree that EMD is about to make a huge comeback.

[Anonymous]

I used to like EMD's, because I saw so many of them as a kid, and I liked how they sounded. But I got to admit, the new GE's are nice. They have great comfortable cabs, and seem to pull like mad. BNSF conductor.

[Anonymous]

The GE's are good for short term (less than 10 years) but EMD is by far the better long term investment. Hence, GE's are cheaper than EMD's at time of purchase. Pulling wise it is tit for tat. Both of them lie profusely about how much they can pull and it is nothing but sales gimmicks and slick packaging. The mean time between failure number generated by EMD and GE are well massaged as well as those supplied by the railroads. It is extremely political. Reality plays only a small part of it. EMD built some junk with the 50 series and the 90mac but they are no worse than a Dash 7 or Genesis. The recent AC4400's are good but after recently checking out the SD70ACe, GE has better watch out. EMD got this just about right. It is the first locomotive from either builder I have been on since the Dash 2 that from a maintenance standpoint is going to be almost a pleasure since I don't think they will be in the shop much.

[Anonymous]

Because "GE brings good things to life"?

[Anonymous]

emd made some good ones and bad ones. ge made good and bad too. we all have to agree the sd40 is a landmark engine. now the sd70 may slowly reaching that landmark.win some loose some,some models were good some dogs.

[Mookie]

Well, I don't work on them, don't build them, don't ride on them. But I sit and listen to them and I can tell a GE from a GM before they come around the corner. The GE's are noisier, much noisier than the EMD - even the new ones. The older ones are the worst. And if you can't tell by the noise or the "smoke", you can by the "whoop" from the GE's.

Bet this will stop all conversation on this, won't it! [}:)]

[Randy Stahl]

In response to the GE locomotives dropping their load or not loading properly. There are a couple of different programs used on GE at this time, none of them are designed to prevent an engineer from pulling his train in two, this can be done regardless of any modifications to the locomotive. The GE has a very effective wheel slip system on newer locomotives so it may seem that the engine has loading problems,. however many things can go wrong with the electronics to cause a real problem. The GE cannot deliver it's power quickly, it takes time for the engine to come up to speed without emmitting clouds of black smoke. The dash 7 locomotive had a turbo speed probe this was the beginning of GE 's attempt to reduce the particle emmission (black smoke) allowing the turbo to come up to speed before the engine is heavily loaded. GE also took away some engine speeds beginning with the dash 7 this eliminated the speed changes that caused the smoke. EMD software now changes the engine speeds to suit the requirements of the enviroment and the locomotive , engine RPM is changed more gradually . I'm surprised that GE never used an isolated cab like the EMD whisper cab, it would certainly cure one of the biggest complaints about the engines. The EMD SD-70 , SD-75 have some issues with the HTCR 2 radial truck, a bunch of injuries have been caused by the rough ride these trucks have. I don't know how many of these injuries are real but I do know that without proper maintenence and inspection there can definitly be some issues. the only spring on the suspension are the pedestal springs, if one breaks the ride quality would be affected greatly . The emmision testing is done in throttle 8, but keep in mind that many factors may explain why the engine still smokes a bit, ambient air temp, barometic pressure, fuel density, etc. Most importanly is quality maintenence

[Randy Stahl]

In my experience the newer GE locomotives are better for one reason, customer support. The EMD SD-80, SD-90 are unreliable and expensive pieces of junk!!! EMD cannot build a reliable A/C locomotive. THe UP ordered a large number of SD70m and ordered them stripped down and very basic. Even a basic EMD today has big problems, try getting a fuel injector after one of the many EMDEC failures, You'll wait a couple of weeks at least. The new EMD is built in Mexico but it's difficult to find parts on the north American continent. As far as loading the worst one is the SD90MAC , put it in throttle 1, go for coffee and maybe by the time you return the engine will decide to load. The GE locomotive is a little better than a 90 MAC but not much. At least when a GE locomotive fails the parts can be had in a timely manner.

[Anonymous]

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR [:(!] [:(!] [:(!]

Who woke up THIS sleeping dog.

This is all we need, fodder for another forum war. [:(!] [:(!] [:(!]

[daveklepper]

Note that any AC-motor locomotive will have better tractive effort and less motor overload problems than any comparable locomotive, and this is true whether you are comparing EMD's or GE's. Locomotives are a major profit center and display piece for GE, while GM primarily sells cars, and this is reflected in the financing options, etc. Conversely, GM's highway transportation experience brings new ideas and research results to their locomotive business. So both companies have their advantages and disadvantages. There are a lot of foreign manufactured diesels that have EMD diesels in them in preference to the native-manufactured product!

[Anonymous]

I live in Becker MN and one of BNSF mainlines runs threw. We get alot of train traffic.
I notice like in the Minneapolis train yard and st cloud train yard alot of
GE test engines so BNSF must really be stocking there roster with them. Granted
I do see alot of EMD's running the mainline i see alot of GE engines as well.

[daveklepper]

All I can say is that this is sure very interesting, and a good supplement to the article in the issue just received on the latest from EMD. I rode lots of GM locomotives in my time, but the only GE I ever rode was a "Little Joe" on the South Shore, not a dieselDave

[Anonymous]

Good question.....I wondered the same thing?????? Anybody?

[Anonymous]

I would like to ask a question. Tier 2 standards must be very restrictive in respect of pollution. I know diesel engines pollute because of NOx, SOx, CO, … and also bad burned fuel (black smoke).
I don’t know if 2 stroke diesel exhaust more NOx, SOx and/or CO than 4 stroke and if this is the main reason because 2 stroke will never meet Tier 2 requirements, but I know black smoke is almost exclusive of 4 stroke and this is also pollution.
In the end my question is, why a engine which exhausts black smoke can meet Tier 2 standards?.

[wabash1]

I am like ken I give them a chance to show thier true colors and then bust their chops for them. but like we was saying to you if you get a power rush we will give you a power shortage. I have had only 1 official in the last 6 years that was worth his wieght in gold ( and he isnt a light fellow.) He was/ is a people person until you cross him wrong. I dont mind new guys as long as they are willing to learn the ropes of that division they are on the contract and the people that he is in charge of.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for that clarification Silvio. The thought of the newer model AC44 had crossed my mind, but I just wanted to double check....

[Anonymous]

Sorry Silvio, didn't mean to get on yer ***. To be honest, if the newbie TMs are cool and show a willingness to learn, we take care of them. If they are arrogant a-holes-we shread them. Eventually they all (o.k. most) forget where they came from or who helped them and become poisoned by the company then they try to put the meat to us. Bad plan. Their yard will need a huge dose of ex-lax when we are done. The easiest way to screw them is by doing EXACTLY what they say. They don't know how it should be done.

Kev you were missed.........Maybe I ought to tell my pain girl friend that I am a two-stroke.
Ken

[Anonymous]

Yeah D'uh Ken
Only Dumb A**es havn't heard of THIS!

havn't you heard of the Two-stroke-GE?

You have to stroke it Twice evey Mile otherwise it will break down!

HAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHA!!!


[:D] Silvio and Ken... i'm joking.[:D]

[Anonymous]

as far as i think of it i like the ge's better.my reasons are 1.on our line it is all up and down and as an engineer i am doing a lot of stretch braking and the ge's seem to keep the train up to speed better, 2. they ride a lot better on the rougher track due to being a little heavier than the emd's, 3. they just seem to sound a lot better in notch 8.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ashley2771

Do any of you know of a super GE locomotive (not sure of HP) that there is only one of (a demonstrator perhaps)? My brother said he saw a GE locomotive profiled on either Discovery Channel's Extreme Machines show or History Channel's Modern Marvels show, but couldn't remember the model or where it was... may not have been in US....

I know what Locomotive your bro saw. I do believe it was on TLC monster machines. It was the new GE evolution AC4400CW. No this is not a superlocomotive, just the standart locomotive of the future when the regulations come down on RRs for more emission control and less pollution. It is the same as an AC4400CW of today, except with a smaller engine that makes less emissions and better fuel efficiency. If I remember correctly just 6 of these can pull an aircraft carrier (or was it 8 ? ? ? ? ). I was going to purchase that program online, but the prices they charge for them is out of control. It's like why pay 20-30$ when I can tape it next time it's on for 1$.

Sil

[Anonymous]

nope your comments are valued, like dharmon says, I will start to file them away, your views are that of reality, the pain usually has nothing to do with this reality, just off key, anyway enought about the pain, the pain has eased, no need to mention it again, but you were not it.


Like I said to you buddy wabash, If you enjoy doing the same thing then thats great. TMs I take it are pretty much a pain in the rear to you, if you enjoy busting thier chops. I understand your view, and would probably be the same way. How about giving me a chance though, If I were trainmaster, you would enjoy giving me a run for the rail, but you would also enjoy everything else you did alot more, I am not the typical know it all better than you college suit, I have way too many friends and interests to let that profile get the best of me. Also, if these TMs are that in-experianced, the RRs need to go back and edit thier training program for the TMS I think.

[Anonymous]

Silvio
Am I the one that you consider a pain in the ***? If I **** you off now on this little ol forum, you would hate to be my T master. This is nothing. I truly love to give new college know it all TMs a run for their money (most every rail does). Some of these old heads take great pride in busting TMs b*lls. Like Wabash said....I will still be doing that and watch them come and go in 20 years.
Ken

[Anonymous]

Do any of you know of a super GE locomotive (not sure of HP) that there is only one of (a demonstrator perhaps)? My brother said he saw a GE locomotive profiled on either Discovery Channel's Extreme Machines show or History Channel's Modern Marvels show, but couldn't remember the model or where it was... may not have been in US....

[dharmon]

Sivio,

I'm not saying this to make you angry, really. But I think you need to relax some. Enjoy school while you're there and don't get so serious, there's plenty of time to do that later. Take all the advice, good or bad and file it away to use later.
The suits versus labor thing doen't just apply to the RRs, it pretty much appiles to any industry where that relationship exists....even in the military. Many a brand spanking new junior officer has alienated his senior NCOs by coming in with a "I'm the one who went to college attitude and this is how we're gonna do it", and likewise there are plenty who have been burned by blindly following the advice of those he thought we're in the know. You have to find your happy medium and nothing, nothing will help you do it like experience. Like the others have said, and it applies to any industry, you gotta go out and see what makes it tick. Management doesn't have to know the specific monkey skills how to run a loco, but a good one will have ridden along to get a flavor of it. If your going to brief an aircrew to do a mission, having flown one or two will help you see it from a crew's perspective and better see what their requirements are. I don't fix the planes, but the guys that do work for me. I can't tell you how to rebuild a reduction gearbox, but I know what it entails and the hoops the guys will have to jump through to fix the one I wreck, and I'm the one that has to make them understand why they're giving up their weekend to do it.

I offer you this from the management perspective. So in the mean time, take the advice onboard, don't sweat the comments, just file them away as learning points. And remember EMDs rule.

Dan

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wabash1

thank you for the compliment. I can also see you wont make it in railroading as it seems you can dish it out but not take it. and anyone who has been in railroading for any period of time ( say 2 days ) can see the line that you are putting out. every new trainmaster does the same thing. and all i tell them I will still be here when your long gone. most get fired, and im still working out of the same terminal.

Same terminal huh ? ? ? As long as your happy does it really matter ? ? ?


I did'nt give you any compliment, you are not the one, and I'm not on the offensive, so don't comment on "dishing out and taking it" when I have never done such things, I just poke my nose here and there, and I like what all of you have to say (that is relevant to what the subject or matter at hand is), and when people start to go off about certain things such in this case as EMD I like to at least attemp to level the field. I am no expert, have said it before, and will continue to do so. I am wondering, what line am I putting out ? ? ?[8]