Until this is resolved California will probably be restrained from enforcing its mandate. If not then, for example, BNSF would have to have a locomotive pool at Needles (or across in AZ) and UP would need a pool at Yuma and every train would have to stop and change power.
jeffhergert Instead of a national uniform guide there could be 49 standards on the subject.
This reminds me of other topics or issues that are on the minds of many lately, but hey, states rights, right?
Sometimes a federal standard is the right way to go.
Everyone seems to focus on the impact on the Class One carriers, BNSF and UP in this case. It's the short lines that are going to get hit hard. Some have said they may not be able to comply and will shut down.
There is fear that the EPA will allow other states to also impose their own ideas on emissions and CO2. Instead of a national uniform guide there could be 49 standards on the subject. (50, if Hawaii would impose standards on the remaining tourist/musuem railroads. I'm sure developers on Oahu would like to get rid of the Hawaiian Railway Societ.)
Jeff
Interesting fact - the amount of new coal plant capacity under construction world-wide is equal to the gigawatts of coal plants still in operation in the US.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/530257/capacity-of-proposed-coal-power-plants-globally-by-status/
https://www.statista.com/statistics/530569/installed-capacity-of-coal-power-plants-in-selected-countries/
Well Pepsi and Fritolay found the hard way this last winter that battery power over Donner did not work well. The vaunted Tesla semi had to be redeployed so to speak to the Central Valley as they failed to conquer Donner due to the blizzards and the fact that they well could not stay warm for a driver that got caught in a blizzard and ran out of power on there.
My impression is that most of the focus in the "net-zero" generation has been granting subsidies for new generation, while questions of where to build trransmission, energy storage (including reducing the number of battery fires), distribution and demand management have been put on the back burner.
OTOH, I've seen a number of articles about the impossibility of long distance freight haulage by electricity, where the technology has been existance for more than a century - i.e. railroad electrification. What that does require is a reliable source of electricity, though electric locomotives with battery back ups can provide some flexibility.
BaltACDWind - not enough or too much Solar - not enough or not on demand Tides - while they are on a schedule, that schedule might not be the right one Hydro - not everywhere has enough water and enough of a drop for it to work Geothermal - too few active volcanoes in the US to work. Fossil - Carbon Dioxde generators
Solar - not enough or not on demand
Tides - while they are on a schedule, that schedule might not be the right one
Hydro - not everywhere has enough water and enough of a drop for it to work
Geothermal - too few active volcanoes in the US to work.
Fossil - Carbon Dioxde generators
We have a fair amount of wind power here, and a number of wind farms. Still, sometimes it is still...
The solar folks have taken to installing batteries - and I was part of the response that spent most of a day dealing with a fire in one of those batteries.
Hydro is definitely a thing here. When I'm narrating one of our trips I point out that the water they are passing will go through around 10 hydro dams on the way to Lake Ontario. Unfortunately, a lot of that power goes straight to NYC. The same is true of the St Lawrence Power Project and the Niagara Falls plants.
There is actually some geothermal done in this area. But not everyone has enough land to spread out the wells.
Local farmers lost a resource when the local cogen shut down using coal - the fly ash was trucked around the area for farmers to spread in their fields. The plant changed over to biomass, but the state decided not to recognize it as a renewable facility, so it's shut down completely now.
The output from our nuclear plants goes pretty much straight to NYC, too.
Our "leaders" have mandated that everything will go electric in the future, but they've neglected to say where all that power is coming from. The electricity fairy?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 Flintlock76 Call me a nasty old cynic but someone's been sold a major bill of goods on these things. The same can be said for solar... Many acres of the panels in our area now. One installation hasn't been connected to the grid because the grid can't handle it...
Flintlock76 Call me a nasty old cynic but someone's been sold a major bill of goods on these things.
The same can be said for solar... Many acres of the panels in our area now. One installation hasn't been connected to the grid because the grid can't handle it...
Every form of Energy has its drawbacks -
Wind - not enough or too muchSolar - not enough or not on demandTides - while they are on a schedule, that schedule might not be the right oneHydro - not everywhere has enough water and enough of a drop for it to workGeothermal - too few active volcanoes in the US to work.Fossil - Carbon Dioxde generators
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Flintlock76Call me a nasty old cynic but someone's been sold a major bill of goods on these things.
BaltACD azrail Notice what those tornadoes in Iowa did to those wind turbines? If it is made by man - Nature can defeat it.
azrail Notice what those tornadoes in Iowa did to those wind turbines?
If it is made by man - Nature can defeat it.
And there's another dirty little secret about wind turbines. You need at leat a 15 MPH wind for them to generate power. No 15 MPH wind, no power. AND if the wind goes over 35 MPH they have to be shut down and the blades "feathered" into the wind. And that being the case then they're not generating power.
Call me a nasty old cynic but someone's been sold a major bill of goods on these things.
deleted
azrailNotice what those tornadoes in Iowa did to those wind turbines?
Notice what those tornadoes in Iowa did to those wind turbines?
Maybe the BNSF and UP work out how to string catanary from the left coast to the state line (or crew change point just beyond) on the Californications's dime. Buy a few electric locomotive to shuttle back and forth, and hope it doesn't cause rolling blackouts everytime more than two trains are climbing a hill.
Seriously, this won't end well, with intractable personalities on both sides.
york1,
don't forget end of life concerns for "green" equipment. There are a lot of toxic rare-earth elements in solar panels that cannot be easily recycled. Wind turbine blades have a set lifespan. Where do they go?
charlie hebdo Instead of complaining, just post your pictures.
Instead of complaining, just post your pictures.
Spare us the pompus lectures on doing more for you fellow man then ..
I was trying to get at the fact that BNSF is moving to comply with CARB and will probably do so in the future.
charlie hebdo Just as those folks most opposed to higher and high speed passenger rail have never ridden in a modern ststem, those anti EV and anti PHEV and anti-electric and hybrid freight have never experienced any of them. Coal freaks? Nostalgia addicts?
Just as those folks most opposed to higher and high speed passenger rail have never ridden in a modern ststem, those anti EV and anti PHEV and anti-electric and hybrid freight have never experienced any of them. Coal freaks? Nostalgia addicts?
Not necessarily. There are some of us (I know, very few) who actually worry about how the new technologies are being made.
How many of the people driving an EV or installing solar panels on their houses know, or even care, where the materials come from?
How many EV drivers care that some of the materials in their batteries probably come from Africa where children as young as seven-years-old are being used as labor in the mines?
How many solar panel users care that some of the materials being used in the production of those Chinese panels come from actual slave labor in re-education camps?
It seems that many in our country are willing to overlook the human cost to get these things.
York1 John
charlie hebdo rdamon okay boys ... Back to railroading .. I have been watching the cam and posted photos and it looks like BNSF has been getting new Tier-4 ET44C4 while UP, CSX, NS and others have been rebuilding or getting BNSF rebuilt AC4400s or C44-9W. https://railpictures.net/photo/854120/ Other the rail photos, your post has nothing to do with the thread title or its directions taken by members.
rdamon okay boys ... Back to railroading .. I have been watching the cam and posted photos and it looks like BNSF has been getting new Tier-4 ET44C4 while UP, CSX, NS and others have been rebuilding or getting BNSF rebuilt AC4400s or C44-9W. https://railpictures.net/photo/854120/
okay boys ...
Back to railroading ..
I have been watching the cam and posted photos and it looks like BNSF has been getting new Tier-4 ET44C4 while UP, CSX, NS and others have been rebuilding or getting BNSF rebuilt AC4400s or C44-9W.
https://railpictures.net/photo/854120/
Other the rail photos, your post has nothing to do with the thread title or its directions taken by members.
It does in the sense that other CARB requirements are mandating newer T4 units.
Erik_MagFor battery electric locomotives, let's assume the battery can hold ten hours worth of juice at run 8, this would work out to 30MW-hrs...
First, I suspect any sensible operation would involve something like 20-80 charging to maximize battery life. So 3/5 of that 30 Mw/h for each charge. I suspect that the need for "20-minute" recharge will not be great for much battery-driven passenger equipment of that size; if it is commuter equipment there may in fact be a comparatively long time between 'peak load' trains in the morning, their counterparts in the evening, and perhaps relative lack of demand at high density or high speed during midday and nighttime periods.
Meanwhile the locomotive will not be at the equivalent of 'Run 8' for very long after each stop, and it will regenerate a reasonable percentage of its kinetic energy in the subsequent deceleration. Something that was a bit of a hot topic several decades ago was a perceived concern with sourcing and sinking large starting and braking currents to 'the grid' from catenary electrification; careful consideration was made toward the use of wayside-power installations including those using KERS to recapture the braking 'surge' close to a station, and then provide it back to the same consist to aid reacceleration. This remains an option to provide on battery power.
charlie hebdo Charge overnight in garage. They sre much peppier driving, quiet and better for the environment. This is an issue that transcends individual choices.
Charge overnight in garage. They sre much peppier driving, quiet and better for the environment. This is an issue that transcends individual choices.
The "better for the environment" assertion is not as clear cut as many people think, with new ICE vehicles being cleaner and somewhat more efficient than older vehicles.
If traveling, an extra 20 minutes won't hurt. You can get coffee or some treats.
This brings up a problem that's not discussed as much as it should be. A round number for EV mileage is 4 miles/kwhr, so charging after 200 miles would require 50kwhr. To be able to charge in 20 minutes would require 150kW per charging station, and the equivalent of a small gas station woulld be 8 charging stations with a sustained demand of close to a 1MW during rush hour. To get the equivalent throughput of a Costco gas station (typically 22-24 pumps at maybe 10 minute dwell per pump) would be 50 charging stations and 7.5MW demand. To keep the electric utility happy, this station would likly need the equivalent of 6 to 10 hours of storage. At 8 hours, we're talking 60MW-hrs. At $400/kwhr for total cost of a battery installation, we're now talking $24million just for the local storage.
For battery electric locomotives, let's assume the battery can hold ten hours worth of juice at run 8, this would work out to 30MW-hrs. With a 20 minute re-charge, the demand per locomotive would be 90MW, and a train with 3 of those would require a total of 270MW. The latter is a typical peak demand for a city of 200,000 to 300,000 residents.
To digress a moment: the thing I waited for all the way from the '70s was the truck described by the 'four-door Bronco' people as front seat, full back seat, eight-foot bed in a closed body -- essentially my '76 Colony Park station wagon with a proper diesel engine and heavier suspension. For one brief shining moment I thought we were going to get it when the Excursion was announced. (That turned out to be a huge, overweight, overpriced lump with less room inside than my '94 Sub, and only a short 'bed' after all... BUT Ford did produce a hybrid demonstrator of it.) I suspect this involved the Brazilian 4-liter version of the PowerCerebrovascularAccident engine, which would have given nearly 40mpg performance in sustained cruise with little to no loss of effective towing capacity for anything other than sustained heavy grades. I still find I want one.
In those days (~2000) the idea of plug-in hybrids was a pipe dream, but as more and more support for large electric trucks and 800V rapid charging starts to come in, the idea of large private vehicles using the infrastructure looks more and more attractive...
I love hybrids, both on the road and potentially on the railroad. But battery-only anything is... well, just ridiculous for many of the real-world situations that are going to come up. Until AAA has fleets of rapid-recharge emergency trucks, which I think will be a 'thing' but currently isn't, the likelihood of getting dangerously close to being stranded on a regular basis is too high even if every charger everywhere works perfectly -- and that is something far from true even today when the charging infrastructure is still comparatively new.
Millions of people across America live in rental property. Very few rental units have charging capability, or are particularly equipped to be converted to have it. It's an amusing thing even to contemplate charging an EV parked on the street with an extended charging cord out across the sidewalk... especially left unattended in many 'usual' sorts of rental neighborhoods. What's a solution for those people that makes better sense than a PHEV does?
The eventual 'answer' for electrification on the railroads is increasing punctuated catenary, with 'dual-mode-lite' hybrid locomotives consisting of powered locomotives and FLXdrive-style battery engines for the 'traction battery'. Nothing else aside from Iden's powered tender approach is going to provide sensible transition to electric without ginormous capital expense, much of it of little use until completely built out. But there are many ways to ensure enormous numbers of cascading service failures and delays, particularly in a PSR-centric race-to-the-finance-bottom world.
ECP is another issue entirely. But why on God's green earth is powerline data modulation of the required 220V trainline supposed to be a bad idea? It's not like it's the 'only' modality that's going to be used for brake control...
charlie hebdo110 v is slower but overnight could probably give you a decent enough charge unless you have a long daily commute.
No garage or driveway at my house, so makes charging at home pretty much a non-starter. I did look at some charging maps, but my end of the county is pretty sparse. Just the oddball charger here and there tucked behind this and that that may or may not work, charge slow, and charge money. I think many were installed with grant money, then quickly forgotten about.
Other end of the county has a couple of banks of ~8-10 Tesla superchargers, but that's about 20 miles the wrong way from me and work.
I always wondered why the dealerships don't get more chargers for people that buy their EVs from them. Seems like an untapped revenue stream.
Now if the RR provided us charging, there'd be a F150 lightning parked outside my house right now (not really - still way too much money). Or at least a plug in something hybrid something or other.
Couple years ago, we were supposed to get state money to get a few of those ECO-motor locomotives that you would shut down and plug in when you were done with them (so they wouldn't have to idle in cold weather). But PSR lite happened, and the eco-motors didn't.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Backshopwhile also saying it's an issue that "transcends individual choices". It sure sounds like you'd like to be able to force people.
No, I didn't say anything like that. It was a nice way of saying our environment is a shared resource and we live (most of us) live in society. So even though you might be driving a behemoth pickup truck such as a Ford F450 with 6.7 L engine, maybe an F 150 Lightning would be ok and do more for your fellow man?
tree68 charlie hebdo Charge overnight in garage. You're assuming the electrical service in my house will handle it... I know the circuit to the garage (110V) probably won't.
charlie hebdo Charge overnight in garage.
You're assuming the electrical service in my house will handle it... I know the circuit to the garage (110V) probably won't.
110 v is slower but overnight could probably give you a decent enough charge unless you have a long daily commute.
My wife only puts on about 10 miles RT commute plus we make other trips for appointments, visiting, shopping, etc. We charge for free at a fast charger once every 2-4 weeks.
The car, a VW ID 4, is a pleasure to drive.
Around here also...neighborhood was built in early 2000s and would require a major electrical upgrade to handle EV charging. Personally I don't care..I walk in the winter and cycle in the warmer weather. I drove only 500 km last year..likely will be even less this year. An EV wouldn't make sense for people like me.
My house - being built in the early 1950's only has 100 amp service feed from the above ground power line along the street.
To even consider an EV would require a totally new power feed to the house as well as likely a new main breaker box, both in the house and garage. When I got my welder, I had to get a 110 unit as the garage is not wired for 220.
My Florida condo does not have any way to provide charging for an EV - parking is outside the unit across the public sidewalk.
You can theoretically charge an EV on 110v, but it takes forever and an EV will not charge properly overnight. It was easy for me to install a charging outlet because my main panel is in my garage, so it was a matter of running a few feet of heavy gauge wire and cost me less than $50 for materials. If your main panel is somewhere else in the house, of course, the whole thing becomes much more complicated and expensive.
I loved my Tesla (had to sell it because we were moving to Eastern Europe where the charging infrastructure doesn't exist yet) but I do understand that EVs aren't for everyone at this time. Nevertheless, much of the complaining about EVs has a distinctly retrograde, Luddite, "get off my lawn" feel to it.
charlie hebdoCharge overnight in garage.
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