Approximately, a year back(2023); The California Air Resources Board [CARB] Issued a rule that would effect Diesel Locomotives in the State. See linked article @ California passes 1st-in-nation train emissions rules (mercurynews.com)
TRAINS Newswire alsoi weighed in wiuththe following: @California passes regulations calling for zero-emission locomotives - Trains
"California passes regulations calling for zero-emission locomotives"By David Lassen | May 3, 2023
Both indicated that th3 Federal EPA would have to weigh in on this regulation.
A recent story in 'Just the News' @https://justthenews.com/nation/states/center-square/washington-farm-bureau-california-green-train-mandate-entirely
Seems that the Washington Farm Bureau is beginning to put things together?
"Washington Farm Bureau: California green train mandate ‘entirely unworkable’"
"...Last year, CARB voted in favor of a new rule requiring zero-emission train purchases would also force railroads to prematurely retire 25,000 diesel-powered trains, as the rule prohibits trains 23-years or older from operating in the state..."
As readers here underdstand, 'unworkable' is pissibly a gooi adjective. Expensive, and prohibitive: most likely. One has to woinder how far the activist commnunity in Washington, D.C. will be willing to carry this 'mandate' out ? Hoiw will the rail tranksport community react?
The Trucking Industry is already screaming about the Electric Truck mandates there, in California....
Hitting nerves or hitting the fan?
Electricity prices are up 30% over the last three years (check the Wall Street Journal for a random act of journalism) and that is just the start.
Hence the railroad's deep interest in trying to make hydrogen work as a fuel source.
That won't save the shortlines, though.
Neither will autonomous containers on autonomous track with autonomous switches to autonomous spurs.
Get aready for rationed electricity.
For goodness sake it's time for the railroads and trucking companies to embargo California. Like the Nike as says "Just do it!"
Let Atlas shrug for a bit and see how they like it.
In order for California to transition to electric transportation, the state will need to find an abundant source of reasonably low cost electricity that will be available when all of these vehicles need charging. Note for solar or wind to work, there needs to be electric energy storage on a scale that's well more than an order of magnitude larger than what currently exists in the state. Outside of the CalISO, I haven't seen much evidence that anyone in the state government has given serious thought to the electric suply issue.
Erik_Mag Outside of the CalISO, I haven't seen much evidence that anyone in the state government has given serious thought to the electric suply issue.
Of course not. Electricity comes from the hole in the wall, everybody knows that! It's always been there and always will be there! Won't it?
Irrespective of everyones feelings about electric transportation - I am seeing more electric vehicles on the road in my everyday travels than ever before - Teslas and the electric Mustang's are easily identifiable.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD electric Mustang's
Those are a mortal sin, a crime against nature, and a slur on the memory of Lee Iaccocca and Carroll Shelby! To say nothing of Steve McQueen!
I'm not at all opposed to elecctric vehicles, and had experience with electric Rav4's and IQ's 10 years ago. What I do object to is a mandate to buy EV's, especially when no serious effort is put into supporting the electric demand for a muh larger fleet.
There's still a lot of room for improvement in EV batteries, as there was a lot of room for imrovement in diesel engines from the 1925 to 1940 era. Consider the difference between a 201A and a 567C.
Folks leaving our area after viewing the eclipse had trouble finding charging stations...
And I know first hand what can happen if those big storage batteries catch fire. The fire not far from me (6 miles...) was a major factor in the final cancellation of a battery project in the Adirondacks recently.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
[quote user="Erik_Mag"]
[/quote]
SOOOO! I guess rthe whole country will wait , until the evil geniuses in Washington, D.C. and the Political class, in Sacramento, have suffered enough.
Finally,figuring out that wind farms, solar panels and cancelled neculear plants, are not enogh to charge their EV's??? At what point do they figure out, that Rudolph Diesel had a pretty good grip on the replacement for Steam......
samfp1943SOOOO! I guess rthe whole country will wait , until the evil geniuses in Washington, D.C. and the Political class, in Sacramento, have suffered enough.
It'll be a LONG time before that happens brother, as the saying goes "They've got theirs." It's the rest of us that have to pick up the pieces and try to carry on.
Roll on November...
samfp1943 the evil geniuses
the evil geniuses
Not so much "evil geniuses" as clueless ideologues. Brings to mind the difference between armchair "generals/admirals" and actual military leaders. The armchair folks talk strategy, the pros talk logistics.
One example of the logistics in electrification of transportation is where is all the material (e.g. aluminum, cobalt, copper, lithium, nickel, etc) needed coming from?? Several of the proposed mines for sourcing these materials have been blocked by some of the same folks that have been pushing for electrification.
I would opine that legislators have the attitude that any problem can be solved by passing a law, while forgetting that the laws of nature cannot be changed by the laws of man (or woman).
Probably a more on topic example is the California HSR project - the folks promoting the plan had no clue about how much it would cost to implement the plan and certainly were not informing the public about it.
Erik_MagSeveral of the proposed mines for sourcing these materials have been blocked by some of the same folks that have been pushing for electrification.
This is the same class of folks who think that food comes from the grocery store and electricity is brought by the electricity fairy.
Several years ago, GM was plugging their newest e-car when a reporter asked GM's flack where the power for charging the car came from. The flack's answer was "this building." After a little give and take, the exchange ended inconclusively, but the reporter contacted a local authority who confirmed that the electricity for the grid there (Lansing, MI) did, indeed, come from a coal burning power plant...
tree68Several years ago, GM was plugging their newest e-car when a reporter asked GM's flack where the power for charging the car came from. The flack's answer was "this building." After a little give and take, the exchange ended inconclusively, but the reporter contacted a local authority who confirmed that the electricity for the grid there (Lansing, MI) did, indeed, come from a coal burning power plant...
Right, there's one of those pithy-to-the-point gag photographs going around titled "Where The Electricity For Charging Your Electric Car Comes From." It's a shot of a coal train parked next to a coal-fired power plant. If I can find it again I'll try and link it.
You know, depending on your age (I'm 70) we ALWAYS knew where the things we took for granted came from. A lot of that was due to those great old promotional films from various industries we saw in school or on early-morning TV. Anyone remember "The Modern Farmer" TV show? It's probably not too much of a stretch for me to say today's young people don't have a clue.
Flintlock76 tree68 Several years ago, GM was plugging their newest e-car when a reporter asked GM's flack where the power for charging the car came from. The flack's answer was "this building." After a little give and take, the exchange ended inconclusively, but the reporter contacted a local authority who confirmed that the electricity for the grid there (Lansing, MI) did, indeed, come from a coal burning power plant... Right, there's one of those pithy-to-the-point gag photographs going around titled "Where The Electricity For Charging Your Electric Car Comes From." It's a shot of a coal train parked next to a coal-fired power plant. If I can find it again I'll try and link it. You know, depending on your age (I'm 70) we ALWAYS knew where the things we took for granted came from. A lot of that was due to those great old promotional films from various industries we saw in school or on early-morning TV. Anyone remember "The Modern Farmer" TV show? It's probably not too much of a stretch for me to say today's young people don't have a clue.
tree68 Several years ago, GM was plugging their newest e-car when a reporter asked GM's flack where the power for charging the car came from. The flack's answer was "this building." After a little give and take, the exchange ended inconclusively, but the reporter contacted a local authority who confirmed that the electricity for the grid there (Lansing, MI) did, indeed, come from a coal burning power plant...
Was a fan of 'Industry on Parade' that was shown in the middle 1950's or so.
In the modern era, The History Channel used to run 'Modern Marvels' and 'How its Made'. While the History Channel no longer broadcasts them they can be seen on The ROKU Channel.
Flintlock76You know, depending on your age (I'm 70) we ALWAYS knew where the things we took for granted came from.
Seen elsewhere: Son to Father (on the cusp of a shocking discovery) - "Isn't it funny that a food (chicken) and an animal have the same name?"
It's said that there's one cow on Long Island, NY, and it's fiberglass. Some years ago, a NY state firefighter's competition was held here (very much dairy and beef country). There were reports that some Long Island firefighters, driving their fire department vehicles (of course equipped with siren and PA) were heard broadcasting over the PA, "Mooooo..."
I was born in this area, and grew up in then-rural southeastern Michigan. My mother grew up on a farm. At one point, we lived next to a farm in MI.
When visiting here from MI for vacation, I would sometimes stay with my cousins for a week. One of their chores was to head across the road (and the creek) each morning to pick up a couple quarts of milk. Sometimes we'd beat the cream in before pouring it on our cereal, sometimes it would get skimmed for making butter.
Today's kids largely have no clue.
Flintlock76 tree68 Several years ago, GM was plugging their newest e-car when a reporter asked GM's flack where the power for charging the car came from. The flack's answer was "this building." After a little give and take, the exchange ended inconclusively, but the reporter contacted a local authority who confirmed that the electricity for the grid there (Lansing, MI) did, indeed, come from a coal burning power plant... Right, there's one of those pithy-to-the-point gag photographs going around titled "Where The Electricity For Charging Your Electric Car Comes From." It's a shot of a coal train parked next to a coal-fired power plant. If I can find it again I'll try and link it.
Which is a ignorant meme not backed by facts.
In 2023 only 16.2% of the electricty produced on the US came from coal.
faq.php
A number that continues to drop.
2022 the number was 20%
2021 21.9%
2020 22.5% and that was the 1st year that more power was produced by renewable energy than coal.
However those facts doesn't get the blood going of the "rolling coal" ideologue, so it doesn't make a good meme.....
An "expensive model collector"
[quote user="tree68"]
Flintlock76 You know, depending on your age (I'm 70) we ALWAYS knew where the things we took for granted came from.
YEPPERS! Most of these 'millinials' these days would starve to death in the local stores....even eith a can opener.....Thanks, that today, we have BRAUMS and Dillon's (Kroger).....
As long as we are on this topic or this new tangent to another topic. I am curious what people here think of this new philosophy that seems to be emerging among some circles. That is, that if we remove carbon dixode from the atmosphere than we can extend the live of fossil fuel powered vehicles, more specifically Diesel Locomotives via carbon offsets.
Review the STRATOS project in Texas which is part of this philosophy and is being built by Oxy. Their theory is this is a new revenue stream for Oil companies because CO2 is used in oil drilling (not sure how) and they can use the CO2 in operations while at the same time selling carbon offsets to industries like say railroads if they want to continue to run diesel locomotives.
Would be curious to know how railroads specifically feel about this as an alternative to converting to Electric, LNG or something else. Will railroads embrace carbon offsets or will they adapt an alternate power source.........or will they do both?
https://www.oxy.com/news/news-releases/occidental-and-blackrock-form-joint-venture-to-develop-stratos-the-worlds-largest-direct-air-capture-plant/
It is true that coal plants are being regulated out of existence in the US.
Not in China, not in India nor Indonesia, which are three of the top four countries in the world in terms of population with approximately 3/8 of total world population between the three of them. (India 1, China 2, US 3, Indonesia 4)
Their planned additional gigawatts of new coal plants dwarf the coal capacity being retired by the US even if the US gets down to zero.
Meantime, the Wall Street Journal reported this week that the average price of electricity is up 30% in three years as low-cost power plants are retired and inefficient more expensive sources replace them.
The Class I railroads are all still grappling with making up for the loss of coal traffic.
Ironically, CN and CPKC are both less dependent on coal traffic than the four US Class I railroads, and most of their Canada-generated coal traffic is exported through Roberts Bank.
n012944 Flintlock76 tree68 Several years ago, GM was plugging their newest e-car when a reporter asked GM's flack where the power for charging the car came from. The flack's answer was "this building." After a little give and take, the exchange ended inconclusively, but the reporter contacted a local authority who confirmed that the electricity for the grid there (Lansing, MI) did, indeed, come from a coal burning power plant... Right, there's one of those pithy-to-the-point gag photographs going around titled "Where The Electricity For Charging Your Electric Car Comes From." It's a shot of a coal train parked next to a coal-fired power plant. If I can find it again I'll try and link it. Which is a ignorant meme not backed by facts. In 2023 only 16.2% of the electricty produced on the US came from coal. faq.php A number that continues to drop. 2022 the number was 20% 2021 21.9% 2020 22.5% and that was the 1st year that more power was produced by renewable energy than coal. However those facts doesn't get the blood going of the "rolling coal" ideologue, so it doesn't make a good meme.....
Coal was always a sort of a wretched fuel for electricity generation. There were very effective methods for 'clean coal' operation (most of which didn't get much press) including near-full sequestration for about 23% increase in what would be charged for electricity. But in an age where research is toward 'zero-carbon' and not 'zero-net-carbon' I don't expect to see any further development in this country, and the places elsewhere in the world still generating 'dirty' power don't seem to be concerned with very many of the clean-coal niceties.
If 'zero-carbon' is the priority, natural gas is as bad as coal. What isn't mentioned is that both wind and solar have considerable, repeating, and sometimes relatively short-term replacement costs, and relatively large aggregate stranded cost. The latter can, and has been, efffectively 'distributed' -- but not at the kind of scale required for even widespread automobile electrification. The former has simply been whitewashed, but it is not difficult to figure out.
I suspect the idea is similar to that we see being developed for automobiles: to raise the factor price of electricity to 'charge what the traffic will bear'. In theory that might be so great as to make carrier hydrogen begin to look cost-effective...
CMStPnPThat is, that if we remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere...
All the trees will die...
Since trees and other plants are the primary source of renewable oxygen, eventually, we'll run out of it, too...
There's a balance - but the hard core folks don't seem to understand that.
I just saw that one of the bigger voices in the green movement thinks that trees are bad.
Overmod If 'zero-carbon' is the priority, natural gas is as bad as coal.
If 'zero-carbon' is the priority, natural gas is as bad as coal.
I would also add that wind isn't much better than natural gas due to the need for concrete, steel, etc needed to make a wind turbine. A combined cycle gas turbine (CCGT) plant uses a small fraction of the materials that an equivalent in wind generation would require. This is also avoiding the subjects of transmission lines to remote sites, and how to make up for the intermittent power output from wind.
FWIW, the reduction in coal use has been driven more by the reduction in natural gas prices than by the rise in renewables. Due to coal plants needing to put out at least 30% of capacity, coal plants are usually operated as base load generation, which renewables are not a replacement.
In my opinion, the push for 'zero-carbon' is the wrong way to go, as there is no generation that doesn't involve some production of CO2. The more realistic approach is focusing on minimizing total carbon production. For electric generation, my guess the optimum mix would be nuclear for base load, solar (in lower latitudes) for daytime peaks, electric energy storage to handle evening demand and natural gas to make up for the shortfalls.
Note to "Tree": There is some optimum level of CO2 in the atmosphere, with lots of differing opionions of what that level is. It's almost certainly higher than the pre-industrial average of 280ppm.
Erik_MagFor electric generation, my guess the optimum mix would be nuclear for base load, solar (in lower latitudes) for daytime peaks, electric energy storage to handle evening demand and natural gas to make up for the shortfalls.
You could run enginion boiler and superheater burners on town gas, but it would be relatively dangerous (and town gas is no longer economical to make 'green' or even 'blue'...). In theory you could run them on hydrogen, but it would not be long until the booming started. Very expensively for whoever was the service provider or equipment manufacturer unless they had some form of statutory immunity...
Distributed power now is a combination of solar generation of various scales and the Tesla-style 'powerwall' storage charging from both solar and, during low-demand periods, grid. All the 'smart islanding' stuff is in principle available, although it needs a little refinement to make it 'hacker-proof' and immune from clever electricity mooches and thieves. Whether or not we leverage 'emergency home generation' (mostly with natural gas or equivalent) remains to be seen, but it is about as amenable as large-scale solar to amortized or financed or subsidized incentives -- more and more so as we enter the age of third-world-style rolling brownouts or scheduled outages.
Does have to be said that ground-source heat-pump conversion is an interesting method of lowering major sources of demand... and much of the implementation can be done using at least renewable sources (zero-net-carbon, which I think is the thing to shoot for first if atmospheric and ultimately oceanic carbon reduction is the aim).
I keep seeing indications of people who are gearing up to run a Sabatier process on large amounts of atmospheric CO2 (which they claim to be able to extract at under $250/ metric tonne of gas) and some suitable method of green hydrogen separation (which they have similar low-cost claims for.) Sabatier is exothermic, so it produces what might be useful process heat, and the 'monomer' gas that results is a useful building block for many materials if you want to sequester carbon without supercritical storage...
BackshopNow, natural gas is being seen as "bad".
Yeah, go figure! NG was considered a godsend as it didn't pollute like coal or even oil did, now it's BAD!
Can you imagine if all the gas kitchen stoves in this country were coal-fired like they were in the 19th and early 20th Centuries, and that gas stoves were considered "The answer to a maiden's prayer!" when they came on the scene? PLUS you could turn a gas stove off instantly while you couldn't turn off a coal stove without extinguishing the fire and then could only start the fire again with difficulty? And THEN you had the ashes to dispose of?
Where do these idiots who haven't a CLUE come from?
Coal is bad, gas is bad, oil is bad, hydro-electric is bad, windmills are bad because they kill birds, solar panels are bad because they're eyesores and take up green space. And you can't even mention nuke plants without giving some people an attack of the vapors. Isn't there some way we can tell these people to just shut the hell up and go away?
Flintlock76 Backshop Now, natural gas is being seen as "bad". Yeah, go figure! NG was considered a godsend as it didn't pollute like coal or even oil did, now it's BAD! Can you imagine if all the gas kitchen stoves in this country were coal-fired like they were in the 19th and early 20th Centuries, and that gas stoves were considered "The answer to a maiden's prayer!" when they came on the scene? PLUS you could turn a gas stove off instantly while you couldn't turn off a coal stove without extinguishing the fire and then could only start the fire again with difficulty? And THEN you had the ashes to dispose of? Where do these idiots who haven't a CLUE come from? Coal is bad, gas is bad, oil is bad, hydro-electric is bad, windmills are bad because they kill birds, solar panels are bad because they're eyesores and take up green space. And you can't even mention nuke plants without giving some people an attack of the vapors. Isn't there some way we can tell these people to just shut the hell up and go away?
Backshop Now, natural gas is being seen as "bad".
Electric Stoves.
n012944Which is a ignorant meme not backed by facts.
As Foghorn Leghorn used to say: "It's a joke, son!"
BaltACDElectric Stoves.
Referring to my last paragraph where's the juice supposed to come from since the Greens can't even come to a common cause on the subject?
PS: We've got an electric stove and have no problem with it, although Lady Firestorm would have preferred gas. Me too in fact, gas stoves still work during blackouts. Oh well, there's always Sterno.
Flintlock76PS: We've got an electric stove and have no problem with it, although Lady Firestorm would have preferred gas. Me too in fact, gas stoves still work during blackouts. Oh well, there's always Sterno.
NY has banned everything but electric in new construction at some point in the near future. Once again, we just know the electricity fairy will come up with the power...
I wouldn't count on Sterno - NY is also talking about banning single use LP cylinders. Sterno can't be far behind. I think CA already has...
Just move into our "15 minute cities" and we'll take care of you...
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.