Trains.com

CARB Rules now hitting nerves outside of Calif.

8530 views
103 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, April 13, 2024 6:11 PM

Flintlock76
 
tree68
Several years ago, GM was plugging their newest e-car when a reporter asked GM's flack where the power for charging the car came from.  The flack's answer was "this building." After a little give and take, the exchange ended inconclusively, but the reporter contacted a local authority who confirmed that the electricity for the grid there (Lansing, MI) did, indeed, come from a coal burning power plant... 

Right, there's one of those pithy-to-the-point gag photographs going around titled  "Where The Electricity For Charging Your Electric Car Comes From."  It's a shot of a coal train parked next to a coal-fired power plant.  If I can find it again I'll try and link it. 

You know, depending on your age (I'm 70) we ALWAYS knew where the things we took for granted came from.  A lot of that was due to those great old promotional films from various industries we saw in school or on early-morning TV.  Anyone remember "The Modern Farmer" TV show?    It's probably not too much of a stretch for me to say today's young people don't have a clue. 

Was a fan of 'Industry on Parade' that was shown in the middle 1950's or so.

In the modern era, The History Channel used to run 'Modern Marvels' and 'How its Made'.  While the History Channel no longer broadcasts them they can be seen on The ROKU Channel.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 9,728 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, April 13, 2024 4:24 PM

tree68
Several years ago, GM was plugging their newest e-car when a reporter asked GM's flack where the power for charging the car came from.  The flack's answer was "this building." After a little give and take, the exchange ended inconclusively, but the reporter contacted a local authority who confirmed that the electricity for the grid there (Lansing, MI) did, indeed, come from a coal burning power plant...

Right, there's one of those pithy-to-the-point gag photographs going around titled  "Where The Electricity For Charging Your Electric Car Comes From."  It's a shot of a coal train parked next to a coal-fired power plant.  If I can find it again I'll try and link it. 

You know, depending on your age (I'm 70) we ALWAYS knew where the things we took for granted came from.  A lot of that was due to those great old promotional films from various industries we saw in school or on early-morning TV.  Anyone remember "The Modern Farmer" TV show?    It's probably not too much of a stretch for me to say today's young people don't have a clue. 

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,020 posts
Posted by tree68 on Saturday, April 13, 2024 3:29 PM

Erik_Mag
Several of the proposed mines for sourcing these materials have been blocked by some of the same folks that have been pushing for electrification.

This is the same class of folks who think that food comes from the grocery store and electricity is brought by the electricity fairy.

Several years ago, GM was plugging their newest e-car when a reporter asked GM's flack where the power for charging the car came from.  The flack's answer was "this building." After a little give and take, the exchange ended inconclusively, but the reporter contacted a local authority who confirmed that the electricity for the grid there (Lansing, MI) did, indeed, come from a coal burning power plant...

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • 1,686 posts
Posted by Erik_Mag on Saturday, April 13, 2024 2:46 PM

samfp1943

the evil geniuses

Not so much "evil geniuses" as clueless ideologues. Brings to mind the difference between armchair "generals/admirals" and actual military leaders. The armchair folks talk strategy, the pros talk logistics.

One example of the logistics in electrification of transportation is where is all the material (e.g. aluminum, cobalt, copper, lithium, nickel, etc) needed coming from?? Several of the proposed mines for sourcing these materials have been blocked by some of the same folks that have been pushing for electrification.

I would opine that legislators have the attitude that any problem can be solved by passing a law, while forgetting that the laws of nature cannot be changed by the laws of man (or woman).

Probably a more on topic example is the California HSR project - the folks promoting the plan had no clue about how much it would cost to implement the plan and certainly were not informing the public about it.

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 9,728 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, April 13, 2024 12:12 PM

samfp1943
SOOOO!  I guess rthe whole country will wait , until the evil geniuses in   Washington, D.C. and the Political class, in Sacramento, have suffered enough.

It'll be a LONG time before that happens brother, as the saying goes "They've got theirs." It's the rest of us that have to pick up the pieces and try to carry on. 

Roll on November...

  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: South Central,Ks
  • 7,170 posts
Posted by samfp1943 on Friday, April 12, 2024 10:06 PM

[quote user="Erik_Mag"]

I'm not at all opposed to elecctric vehicles, and had experience with electric Rav4's and IQ's 10 years ago. What I do object to is a mandate to buy EV's, especially when no serious effort is put into supporting the electric demand for a muh larger fleet.

There's still a lot of room for improvement in EV batteries, as there was a lot of room for imrovement in diesel engines from the 1925 to 1940 era. Consider the difference between a 201A and a 567C.

[/quote]

SOOOO!  I guess rthe whole country will wait , until the evil geniuses in   Washington, D.C. and the Political class, in Sacramento, have suffered enough.

 Finally,figuring out that wind farms, solar panels and cancelled neculear plants, are not enogh to charge their EV's???      At what point do they figure out, that Rudolph Diesel had a pretty good grip on the replacement for Steam......

 

 


 

  • Member since
    December 2001
  • From: Northern New York
  • 25,020 posts
Posted by tree68 on Friday, April 12, 2024 9:46 PM

Folks leaving our area after viewing the eclipse had trouble finding charging stations...

And I know first hand what can happen if those big storage batteries catch fire.  The fire not far from me (6 miles...) was a major factor in the final cancellation of a battery project in the Adirondacks recently.

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • 1,686 posts
Posted by Erik_Mag on Friday, April 12, 2024 9:04 PM

I'm not at all opposed to elecctric vehicles, and had experience with electric Rav4's and IQ's 10 years ago. What I do object to is a mandate to buy EV's, especially when no serious effort is put into supporting the electric demand for a muh larger fleet.

There's still a lot of room for improvement in EV batteries, as there was a lot of room for imrovement in diesel engines from the 1925 to 1940 era. Consider the difference between a 201A and a 567C.

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 9,728 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, April 12, 2024 6:48 PM

BaltACD
electric Mustang's

Those are a mortal sin, a crime against nature, and a slur on the memory of Lee Iaccocca and Carroll Shelby!  To say nothing of Steve McQueen!  Ick!

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Friday, April 12, 2024 4:46 PM

Irrespective of everyones feelings about electric transportation - I am seeing more electric vehicles on the road in my everyday travels than ever before - Teslas and the electric Mustang's are easily identifiable.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 9,728 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, April 12, 2024 4:19 PM

Erik_Mag
Outside of the CalISO, I haven't seen much evidence that anyone in the state government has given serious thought to the electric suply issue.

Of course not.  Electricity comes from the hole in the wall, everybody knows that! It's always been there and always will be there!  Won't it? Dunce Bang Head

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • 1,686 posts
Posted by Erik_Mag on Friday, April 12, 2024 2:52 PM

In order for California to transition to electric transportation, the state will need to find an abundant source of reasonably low cost electricity that will be available when all of these vehicles need charging. Note for solar or wind to work, there needs to be electric energy storage on a scale that's well more than an order of magnitude larger than what currently exists in the state. Outside of the CalISO, I haven't seen much evidence that anyone in the state government has given serious thought to the electric suply issue.

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • From: Henrico, VA
  • 9,728 posts
Posted by Flintlock76 on Friday, April 12, 2024 11:39 AM

For goodness sake it's time for the railroads and trucking companies to embargo California.  Like the Nike as says "Just do it!"

Let Atlas shrug for a bit and see how they like it. 

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • 2,678 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Friday, April 12, 2024 7:03 AM

Hitting nerves or hitting the fan?

Electricity prices are up 30% over the last three years (check the Wall Street Journal for a random act of journalism) and that is just the start.

Hence the railroad's deep interest in trying to make hydrogen work as a fuel source.

That won't save the shortlines, though.

Neither will autonomous containers on autonomous track with autonomous switches to autonomous spurs.

Get aready for rationed electricity.

 

  • Member since
    June 2003
  • From: South Central,Ks
  • 7,170 posts
CARB Rules now hitting nerves outside of Calif.
Posted by samfp1943 on Thursday, April 11, 2024 7:54 PM

Approximately, a year back(2023);  The California Air Resources Board [CARB] Issued a rule that would effect Diesel Locomotives in the State.  See linked article @ California passes 1st-in-nation train emissions rules (mercurynews.com)

TRAINS Newswire alsoi weighed in wiuththe following: @California passes regulations calling for zero-emission locomotives - Trains

"California passes regulations calling for zero-emission locomotives"By David Lassen | May 3, 2023

Both indicated that th3 Federal EPA would have to weigh in on this regulation.

A recent story in 'Just the News'  @https://justthenews.com/nation/states/center-square/washington-farm-bureau-california-green-train-mandate-entirely

Seems that the Washington Farm Bureau is beginning to put things together?

"Washington Farm Bureau: California green train mandate ‘entirely unworkable’"

"...Last year, CARB voted in favor of a new rule requiring zero-emission train purchases would also force railroads to prematurely retire 25,000 diesel-powered trains, as the rule prohibits trains 23-years or older from operating in the state..."

As readers here underdstand, 'unworkable' is pissibly a gooi adjective.  Expensive, and prohibitive: most likely.   One has to woinder how far the activist commnunity in Washington, D.C. will be willing to carry this 'mandate' out ?  Hoiw will the rail tranksport community react?   

The Trucking Industry is already screaming about the Electric Truck mandates there, in California....

 

 

 

 

 


 

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy