Convicted One BaltACD Naked agression against a sovereign peaceful country is worlds beyond politics. Frankly Balt, I'm a little skeptical that we are being given the pure, unvarnished truth. Can't really delve into it adequately here without upsetting the powers, etc. But I do believe that neither side is above distortion.
BaltACD Naked agression against a sovereign peaceful country is worlds beyond politics.
Frankly Balt, I'm a little skeptical that we are being given the pure, unvarnished truth. Can't really delve into it adequately here without upsetting the powers, etc. But I do believe that neither side is above distortion.
The historian in me says you really can't get the whole correct picture until 150 years have passed since a major event, like a war for example. There are exceptions of course.
At any rate news reports should be considered what they've been traditionally called, "The first draft of history."
But look at it this way, "Who fired the first shot?" or "Who threw the first punch?"
As an aside, the Ukrainians must be doing even better than we thought. According to this there might be some interesting registration applications at Ukrainian DMV's after this is all over.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/tanks-a-million-ukrainians-permitted-to-skip-tax-declarations-for-seized-russian-tanks
A couple of years ago Hanjin was crippled by a cyber attack that lasted for a month. Many companies lost money while the entire mess was sorted out.
But that is not the scary part. The US military is woefully understaffed. Many people who served in the Long War (Iraq/Afghanistan) retired early after serving 2 or 3 consecutive tours stressing the volunteer military model.
Are American parents, and grandparents, ready see their children, and grandchildren, go into the draft?
Convicted One Frankly Balt, I'm a little skeptical that we are being given the pure, unvarnished truth. Can't really delve into it adequately here without upsetting the powers, etc. But I do believe that neither side is above distortion.
One piece of advise I've run across with respect to events in the Ukraine is "not to immediately accept at face value any reports from anyone involved." It's most likey accurate to point to Russia as the agressor, and probably accurate to say that Putin and the Russian military underestimated the resolve of the Ukrainians.
Zelensky seems to be a master of messaging.
Flintlock76But look at it this way, "Who fired the first shot?" or "Who threw the first punch?"
It would be very easy for me to get myself in trouble if I tried to "go deep" on this subject. I just think we have a definite dual standard in terms of what we consider to be "provocation", depending upon whether we are dealing, or on the receiving end. Look at the rant of Ivan Drago's wife in the movie Rocky IV. I realize that is only a scripted drama. But I feel the talking points to be valid.
How it applies here? I believe the prospect of Ukraine "threatening" to join NATO might very well be seen as a domino from the inverse perspective. I'm not cheering for the other side, mind you, but I just don't believe that equal time for opposed points of view are making it into the narrative, either.
That's about as far as I feel I can go here, accept it or reject it, I'm not looking to argue.
JoeBlowAre American parents, and grandparents, ready see their children, and grandchildren, go into the draft?
I for one am NOT in favor of any re-institution of the draft, unless there's a formal declaration of war passed by Congress. Needless to say we haven't had one of those since December 8th 1941.
Remember the wise words of General Washington, "An army is a dangerous thing to play with." With a BIG military comes the temptation to "Take it for a test drive!" We've had enough of that.
Flintlock76At any rate news reports should be considered what they've been traditionally called, "The first draft of history."
Well then, I'm sure you must be familiar with Smedley Darlington Butler? He had a speech he would give titled "War is a Racket".
Anytime I see current events being force-fit into a "good guys vs bad guys" frame of reference, I think of ol' Smedley.
This is one of those times. Someone is working too hard to force fit the pieces.
'76, unless something changes, there are not going to be any Ukraine DMVs in 6-8 weeks.
Russia is going to encircle and lay siege to the major population centers.
Nothing will get in - no food, no water, no ammunition.
Russia killed millions of Ukrainians before to keep them in the Soviet Union.
There will be millions dead again before this is over as the Russians strangle the life out of that country.We the USA are still buying Russian oil at 500,000-600,000 barrels per day. China is giving them covert support.
We have done nothing to increase oil supply in the US.
Once Russia cuts off the supply lines to those cities it is only a matter of time.
The cavalry is not coming to save those people.
Sure, sanctions will hurt Russia, but the biggest impact will be too late to save lives, and China will prop Russia up because it is in their imperial interests to have Russia keep Europe and the US occupied.
Read the chess board, folks. Look out Taiwan and South Korea.
Meanwhile, the USA is not even playing checkers.
Erik_Mag Convicted One Frankly Balt, I'm a little skeptical that we are being given the pure, unvarnished truth. Can't really delve into it adequately here without upsetting the powers, etc. But I do believe that neither side is above distortion. One piece of advise I've run across with respect to events in the Ukraine is "not to immediately accept at face value any reports from anyone involved." It's most likey accurate to point to Russia as the agressor, and probably accurate to say that Putin and the Russian military underestimated the resolve of the Ukrainians. Zelensky seems to be a master of messaging.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Convicted OneWell then, I'm sure you must be familiar with Smedley Darlington Butler? He had a speech he would give titled "War is a Racket".
Sure, I know about "Smedley D," all Marines know about him! Marine Corps history is part of the boot camp training package, although there's not a lot of mention of "War Is A Racket" for obvious reasons. Considering Smedley's service in the "Banana Wars" ( A Medal of Honor!) I'm not surprised he felt that way.
Convicted One Flintlock76 At any rate news reports should be considered what they've been traditionally called, "The first draft of history." Well then, I'm sure you must be familiar with Smedley Darlington Butler? He had a speech he would give titled "War is a Racket". Anytime I see current events being force-fit into a "good guys vs bad guys" frame of reference, I think of ol' Smedley. This is one of those times. Someone is working too hard to force fit the pieces.
Flintlock76 At any rate news reports should be considered what they've been traditionally called, "The first draft of history."
kgbw49'76, unless something changes, there are not going to be any Ukraine DMVs in 6-8 weeks.
That news story isn't something to be taken super-seriously, it's just an indication that their spirits are far from broken.
Flintlock76 Considering Smedley's service in the "Banana Wars" ( A Medal of Honor!) I'm not surprised he felt that way.
I believe he was the very first serviceman to win the congressional medal of honor, twice?
Personally, if the mantra was "hey, we don't like Putin, let's go take him out".....I'd likely be foaming at the mouth with enthusiasm.
But, when the narrative is staged around the premise of "good vs evil", ..~"The bad guys pull the wings off of crippled baby whales"~.. and other emotional spikes....it makes me think of "War is a Racket" ...and I start pondering (the possibility) "oh, so Goldman Sachs must be in over-their-head with assets stranded in Ukraine, and now it's time for the taxpayers to bail them out?". Just don't enjoy the feeling that I'm being played.
Murphy Siding. That took a couple trips down the rabbit hole to straighten out.
Ol' Gimlet Eye is a pretty interesting "rabbit hole" as well.
Convicted One But, when the narrative is staged around the premise of "good vs evil", "The bad guys pull the wings off of crippled baby whales" and other emotional spikes....it makes me think of "War is a Racket" ...and I start pondering (the possibility) "oh, so Goldman Sachs must be in over-their-head with assets stranded in Ukraine, and now it's time for the taxpayers to bail them out?". Just don't enjoy the feeling that I'm being played.
Those emotional spikes may indeed by fueled by economic exploitation of the unique opportunity offered by war. But they are also part of the “Fog of war,” which is driven by each side stretching the truth as just one more weapon to use in a death match. It is a natural reaction, and there is no reason to dismiss it just because it often looks just like the dishonesty of the economic exploitation occurring at the same time.
kgbw49 '76, unless something changes, there are not going to be any Ukraine DMVs in 6-8 weeks. Russia is going to encircle and lay siege to the major population centers. Nothing will get in - no food, no water, no ammunition. Russia killed millions of Ukrainians before to keep them in the Soviet Union. There will be millions dead again before this is over as the Russians strangle the life out of that country.We the USA are still buying Russian oil at 500,000-600,000 barrels per day. China is giving them covert support. We have done nothing to increase oil supply in the US. Once Russia cuts off the supply lines to those cities it is only a matter of time. The cavalry is not coming to save those people. Sure, sanctions will hurt Russia, but the biggest impact will be too late to save lives, and China will prop Russia up because it is in their imperial interests to have Russia keep Europe and the US occupied. Read the chess board, folks. Look out Taiwan and South Korea. Meanwhile, the USA is not even playing checkers.
This Russian military is not that of the old Soviet Union. And motivation is on Ukraine s side. Putin gambled and is not winning so it's massive artillery and rockets to try to smash cities to rubble. They should remember Stalingrad.
Convicted One Murphy Siding . That took a couple trips down the rabbit hole to straighten out. Ol' Gimlet Eye is a pretty interesting "rabbit hole" as well.
Murphy Siding . That took a couple trips down the rabbit hole to straighten out.
Well, I've had a good day. Managed to say what I wanted to say, didn't anger anybody, didn't get moderated, thread didn't get locked. Can't really get much deeper without veering into politics. Think I'll quit while I'm ahead.
Five posts this day. So are you ready to get out of bed now? Go out and face the world.
But as to the subject. Ukraine has Russia on part of its East and South East sides with Russia controled Belarus on its North side. Other neighbors are NATO members Poland, Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, and as I understand it, Ukraine did not have the resources to join NATO when the others did. Russia co-existed with Ukraine but its democracy was seen as a irritant to the authoritarian Russian powers and when Russia grabbed the eastern provinces that had a significant number of Russian people living in them and the Crimea, Ukraine started talking about joining NATO. Putin felt that he was threatened. That he might be vunerable to an attack on his west. Although he was the first to invade Ukkraine back in 2014. So I hope the motivated Ukrainians can check his military and that NATO can and will provide enough material and supplies to let them cause Putin to admit his error. IF he can say he made a mistake. I doubt he can. Our previous leader never could concieve that he could. Dictators can't.
Betcha didn't know that Tehachapi Pass is in Russia or that Putin runs BNSF
Fact check: Video shows American train carrying tanks, not Russian military convoy (yahoo.com)
charlie hebdo... This Russian military is not that of the old Soviet Union. And motivation is on Ukraine s side. Putin gambled and is not winning so it's massive artillery and rockets to try to smash cities to rubble. They should remember Stalingrad.
Ukraine has been whipped and beaten like Russia's red headed step-child since Czarist days. It has only been the breadbasket that fed Czarist Russia and the USSR.
Putin wants the return of the USSR and most of its Stalinist policies and policing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M53cwS9YgOo
Rolling the clock back 70 years is near impossible.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
As you suggest, it ain't your gramps's USSR!
Take it for what you will, I've seen it suggested that there are bad guys who have nothing to do with the conflict pointing out targets to the Russians. Possibly their competition?
Or, firing on such targets themselves, then blame it on the Russians...
Nothing would surprise me.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
BaltACDPutin wants the return of the USSR and most of its Stalinist policies and policing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M53cwS9YgOo
Thanks for the post Balt. He is a true KGB man and has no empathy or concern for anyone.
Euclida
EuclidUkraine would naturally prefer to be in NATO in order to prevent Russia’s aggression. Ukraine has asked to join NATO several years ago, but it is said that the process takes a long time, and has not yet been finalized.
Actually Ukraine had no interest in NATO until Russia invaded and took Crimea. Thats when it first started to ask about NATO. Up until that time it only wanted to be a member of the EU. Membership in the EU and the orientation towards Western Democracy is what alarmed Mr. Putin. Addionally conscripting for his Army or Alliance from an additional population of Ukraine would also make his military force larger. NATO initially balked at membership of Ukraine due to corruption and the concern that some Ukrainians could be bribed to do just about anything including pass NATO secrets to Russia. EU membership was stalled because Ukraine did not meet all the preconditions of a democracy that the EU has laid out............for some reason they waived some of those requirements recently and moved forwards on the EU Membership.
The whole NATO promised it would not expand Eastwards excuse is a Putin fabrication out of thin air that he started to make in 2007. You'll note that he insists it was verbal and there is of course no written record but also the promise was made prior to him being in power sooooo, how would he know? It's BS. The only promise made by NATO was not to deploy on the territory of the former GDR, that was the only promise made.
You also have to look at history here as well as every single one of the new East Bloc members of NATO have a long history of Russia attacking them, threatening invasion, or attempting to meddle in their internal affairs. Russia already moved borders in Eastern Europe via Stalin after WWII moving the Polish border West 100 miles, absorbing a significant part of East Prussia, etc. So the first Russian invasion happened after WWII. then the various spring protests of the 1960s met with Russian tanks, then threats to join the Russian Commonwealth or Alliance post 1990. It is not a surprise most of them fled to NATO's protective arm.
charlie hebdoThis Russian military is not that of the old Soviet Union.
Having viewed it up close in 1984-1985 including its tanks and soldiers it was crap then. What is surprising is after all the billions spent by Putin on the military it is still poorly trained and their tanks can still be blown apart by our TOW missile system which was introduced in 1973........not to mention the much more portable Javellin. The Russian tanks cannot even accurately engage our TOW or our tanks before we can engage them......that is how bad they are. We have the standoff range advantage and it's one reason why we so quickly destroyed the tanks in Iraq. Also the targeting system on the M1 is so accurate.
charlie hebdo so it's massive artillery and rockets to try to smash cities to rubble.
This and attacking civilian populations directly is actually textbook Soviet. The initial tactics in Ukraine of only attempting to attack Military targets was a rather dumb attempt to mimic the United States and NATO. It didn't work because of the motivated population AND their conscripts are so poorly trained in urban warfare. Plus it is suspected the Russian smart weapons fall significantly short.
Convicted OneI believe he was the very first serviceman to win the congressional medal of honor, twice?
I think he was. There were two other Marines awarded the MOH twice, one was Gunnery Sergeant Daniel Daly (Peking Relief force in 1900 and Belleau Wood in WW1) and Gunnery Sergeant Louis Chukela, both Army AND Navy/Marine Corps MOH's in WW1.
A great quote from Louis Chukela:
"It's not a fools errand I'm sending you on, if it was a fool's errand I'd go myself!"
CMStPnP Russia already moved borders in Eastern Europe via Stalin after WWII moving the Polish border West 100 miles, absorbing a significant part of East Prussia, etc.
Stalin kept that big chunk of Poland he grabbed in 1939 by agreement with Hitler and never gave it back. The Russians haven't given it back to this day. The Polish western border was moved further west to "compensate" the Poles, who I'm sure would have preferred to have their own territory back.
Convicted One Well, I've had a good day. Managed to say what I wanted to say, didn't anger anybody, didn't get moderated, thread didn't get locked. Can't really get much deeper without veering into politics. Think I'll quit while I'm ahead.
'76, I definitely understand the "register your tank" article was somewhat in jest and was a reference to the incredible bravery and espirit de corps of the whole Ukranian population. Heck, if I could send them a workable tank, any tank, even an M4A3E8 or a left-over M-50 or M-51, for $8,259, just let me know where to send the check. Those Ukrainains would use it to unleash hell back on the Russians.
But the problem is re-supply. Without secure supply routes, every day it is closer to the Ukrainians running out of ammuntion, and food, and water.
CMStPnP has it correct - the Russians don't care at all about "proportionate responses" or "collateral damage" that are touchsstones of the United States. They will wage total war - level the cities if necessary, starve the population to death if necessary, use tactical nuclear weapons if necessary, to subjugate Ukraine to the Russian jackboot.
They are digging in for the long siege of Kyiv. They are just working on bringing more artillery up. If they ring the city and cut off its supply routes, they can lob high explosives day and night, indiscriminately, into the city. Powerplants will be the first to go, and then water filtration plants, and then indiscriminate shelling.
I hate to say it but it seems like the only way Ukraine survives in any way as a country is if they can regroup and hold the western half of the country in a North and South Korea type of arrangement. But even that will take NATO becoming involved to be a protective shield over a portion of the country.
But the Iron Curtain is falling again over Eastern Europe, and this time, in the darkness of the wings, the Chinese Dragon is quietly providing aid and comfort to the Russian Bear, funded by the business interests of the good ol' USA.
Putin will press on - he has a benefactor nation in the background, and the condition of his own people in the short term is of no concern to him.
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