The designated (off-topic) Ukraine war thread

[Steven Otte]

Since members seem determined to discuss the Ukraine war on this Forum, please do so in this thread only. Other threads will be deleted.

And I know it's difficult, but keep politics out of this thread. Any "This is because Biden is weak" or "Trump is a Russian patsy" stuff will be deleted, and repeated offenses will result in penalties. Also be warned that if this thread degenerates into insults or fights, it's gone the second that editing it becomes not worth my time. 

Have at it.

[Convicted One]

FWIW, the first thread that you deleted looked just like a "little red riding hood" thread to me as well,  complete with the wolf disguised as grandma. So I support your original decision, completely.

Also saw a fairly good sized DODX movement heading east on the NS H-D a couple nights ago. I have no idea if this is directly related to the subject, but it sure seems like it'd be a mighty sweet coincidence, if it was not.

[Lithonia Operator]

Let's not discuss Ukraine here. Just my opinion.

 

[charlie hebdo]

Lithonia Operator

Let's not discuss Ukraine here. Just my opinion.

 

 

There did not appear to be any insults or flaming, political or otherwise. Yet you don't want any discussion of this topic, even on a pre-approve thread. Why?

Rail-related question. Is the Ukraine rail system UIC (European) gauge or Russian wide gauge?

[Euclid]

Ukraine uses 1520 mm track gage, or just under 5 ft.  

[Murphy Siding]

 

Euclid

Ukraine uses 1520 mm track gage, or just under 5 ft.  

 

Aren't we talking just a strong 1/8" here (4 mm)? Wouldn't the trains of either country work on each other's tack?

Are you sure that Russia's gauge isn't actually 1520 mm and it's just been called 5' gauge for so long that nobody gave it any thought? Since most of the tracks were put in place by the former Soviet Union, I'd bet they're all the same.

[Bruce Kelly]

Let's see. Previous threads where some attempted to discuss the impacts a war might have on railroads were locked up by the moderator, who said they were off-topic for discussing a war. Now we have a thread created by the same moderator for the specific purpose of discussing a war, and right out of the gate the discussion veers off-topic into railroads. It's as if Seinfeld merged with The Office.

[Convicted One]

I'd like to think that Vlad Putin would be a big proponent of PSR if he became the CEO of a major North American Railroad,...but then I am somewhat of a sentimentalist.  

[Lithonia Operator]

charlie hebdo

you don't want any discussion of this topic, even on a pre-approve thread. Why?

And exactly why do I owe you an explanation?

[charlie hebdo]

You don't. 

UIC gauge is 1435mm. Ukraine and Russia are 1520, a whopping difference of 85 mm or 3.346 inches.

[selector]

Bruce Kelly

Let's see. Previous threads where some attempted to discuss the impacts a war might have on railroads were locked up by the moderator, who said they were off-topic for discussing a war. Now we have a thread created by the same moderator for the specific purpose of discussing a war, and right out of the gate the discussion veers off-topic into railroads. It's as if Seinfeld merged with The Office.

 

'Cuz we're ornery and contrary? 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Everybody knows that Russia chose 5' gauge as a defensive measure, but it also stymied offensive operations at the beginning of the First World War.

[Flintlock76]

CSSHEGEWISCH

Everybody knows that Russia chose 5' gauge as a defensive measure, but it also stymied offensive operations at the beginning of the First World War.

 

Interesting.  I thought the Russians chose five-foot gauge because an even five feet makes a little more sense than four feet, eight-and-one-half inches. At least when you think about it. 

[Euclid]

Here is a cab ride video on a passenger train in the Carpathian Mountains of Ukraine.  It zips right along on the twisting, hilly track.  It gives quite a feel for living in this sparsely populated area. 

 

Interestingly, at least portions of the track, rather than having staggered rail joints, have joints laid square, or in other words, the joints are aligned.  As discussed before here, there are pros and cons for each method.  If you look the video at time starting 19:00 for instance, you can see the rail joints coming at you in pairs.  Each pair being struck by the wheels makes a relatively louder click than hitting one joint at a time with staggered joints.    

 

The second half seems to have more variety of wayside details, high bridges, tunnels, and more population density, buildings, etc.   The train seems to be moving quite fast through these more congested areas. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZZRJMjtFIg

[Murphy Siding]

Flintlock76

 

 

CSSHEGEWISCH

Everybody knows that Russia chose 5' gauge as a defensive measure, but it also stymied offensive operations at the beginning of the First World War.

 

 

 

 

Interesting.  I thought the Russians chose five-foot gauge because an even five feet makes a little more sense than four feet, eight-and-one-half inches. At least when you think about it. 

 

It's just a number, so there's no real sense in either measurement. If you  think about it, maybe the early British had it right with Isambard  Kingdom Brunel's 7'-0 1/4" broad gauge. 

[Flintlock76]

Murphy Siding

It's just a number, so there's no real sense in either measurement. If you  think about it, maybe the early British had it right with Isambard  Kingdom Brunel's 7'-0 1/4" broad gauge. 

Brunel may have had something there, but his Broad Gauge was just a bit too much.  Or maybe ahead of his time, like his ship "Great Eastern?"

Anyway, one of the Broad Gauge locomotives survives.

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/tiny-0-4-0wt-south-devon-railway-broad-gauge/#:~:text=Tiny%20is%20part%20of%20the,of%20the%20others%20are%20replicas.

[Woke Hoagland]

I have never seen any discussion of Russian (or, in the iron-curtain days, "associated" country) railroads that used a metric gauge other than 1524mm.

I find it hard to believe 4mm would make or break the ability of Russian stock to be used as part of an invasion force -- or for Ukrainian stock to be abstracted to Russia over Russian 'metals'.

[tree68]

The Erie started out at six feet.  Made for plenty of clearance and nice, wide curves when they changed over to "standard gauge."

There are many theories about why 4 feet, eight and a half inches came about, with probably the most popular, of course, having to do with Roman chariots.  One theory is as good as another, I suppose.  I don't know that anyone ever actually recorded that "we chose 4' 8.5" because...

[blue streak 1]

Since I started a subjet just for what would happen in the USA RRs and Amtrak I am puzzled,.  Why was it deleted? will say no more???

[Euclid]

I expect that U.S. railroads and all other facets of our society will be greatly affected by the conflict breaking out in Eastern Europe.  I believe there is a high likelihood that we will be drawn into the conflict. 

 

The world may coalesce around the premise that we cannot let this happen to those under attack because that is not who we are.  Wars create their own gravity.  Due to our technical abilities of this age, wars are becoming harder to evaluate and react to.  For instance, say we get hit by a massive cyber-attack. Will we know and agree on who was responsible?   

[Overmod]

blue streak 1

Since I started a subject just for what would happen in the USA RRs and Amtrak I am puzzled.  Why was it deleted?

Because someone didn't read it carefully, assumed the discussion would run off the rails, and imposed a thoroughly Russian-style ukase to get rid of it.

Now we have this, with just the same care required as I cautioned in the original: do not post about the politics, just the effects on the railroads.

I confess that I do expect 'cyberstrikes' on the rail infrastructure, just as I do against the general SCADA infrastructure of our other critical utilities.  Then I expect them all over again when China decides to cause Taiwan some grief.  Some aspects of PTC, including technical dependence on free GPS utility, may require unexpected workaround or replacement if any of the "players" think we need to be taken down a peg or two...

[rdamon]

And as well we should be reserved in discussing any vulnerabilities in a public forum.  SCADA and other critical infrastructur networks need to be secure. 

in 2014 such tactics were used in Ukraine on their utility networks. 

 

[Electroliner 1935]

Yes, I expect that malicious hacking should be expected. It has happened alrady with pipelines and hospitals (ransomware) Before I retired, I was active in designing a private Fiber Optic network that linked our facilities with its private connectivity which gave my employer some security from hacking by outside entities. But never say never. I also pushed diverse routed pathways and it served us well. I had two paths for data traffic between our HQ and our data center and after one of the telco's Central Offices suffered a fire that interupted one of the pathes, my boss jokingly told me "You didn't have to burn down the C.O. to prove your point." He lost phone service at his house because he lived in its area. These circuits were before the F.O. system. 

I hope Metra and other Railroads having rights of way have their own networks and provision for loss of dispatch centers so they can survive the attacks I expect will be coming. 

[blue streak 1]

Electroliner: Agree:This poster is concerened with the problems that PSR has caused.  The US suppply chain will need pushing .  That means no more trains sitting 48 hours waiting for a rested crew. There may be the need to alter some of the HOS rules?  There may also be some extra DODX traffic?

[zugmann]

blue streak 1

There may be the need to alter some of the HOS rules?  There may also be some extra DODX traffic?

Alter, how?

[charlie hebdo]

blue streak 1

Agree:This poster is concerened with the problems that PSR has caused. 

This poster?  Is it possible to simply use the first person singular pronoun when expressing an opinion.  And a declarative statement is not followed by a question mark, but a period.

[Convicted One]

charlie hebdo

And a declarative statement is not followed by a question mark, but a period.

I'm fairly confident that the question mark is intended as a way to solicit if the reader agrees.  That would be my intent if I had written what he wrote. (?, lol)

[Erik_Mag]

With the increase in natural gas and oil prices, I would imagine that coal traffic will increase for a while. The closures in coal fueled electric power plants was driven as much by the low price for natural gas as it was by environmental concerns.

[greyhounds]

Ukraine and Russia are both significant exporters of grain. This awful war will likely disrupt that.  Fields won't get planted, supplies will be embargoed, etc. Since people need to eat, this war will disrupt agricultural trade. That will impact North American railroads. Along with our personal food budgets.

 

Much, much worse are the people who have been killed in this stupidity. Along with those who are going to be killed.

 

When “Live Free or Die” becomes a reality instead of a slogan things are really bad.

[Euclid]

When I mentioned the dilemma arising from a massive cyber-attack, I did not mean just random hacking against one or a few targets.  I was referring to a military cyber-attack that shuts down a significant portion of power, heat, and communications throughout a sizable portion of our country. 

 

This is a possibility, and if it happens, it may be regarded as an act of war.  It may also happen without any knowledge of who caused it.  Would we retaliate against the most likely culprit?  This is a new era in which massive damage can be inflicted with little if any direct evidence of who did it.