blue streak 1GPS system to shutdown
Just for clarification, there are two GPS systems in the United States. Civilian and Military. Putin only has the capability to spoof the civilian GPS in relatively small geographic areas. Civilian GPS is deliberately not as accurate as Military to prevent an opponent from using it for smart weapons. He can't mess with the Military GPS (more accurate and used for our smart weapons and the Military).
Our troops are trained to operate GPS free......just in case.
SD70Dude BaltACD About 20 years ago CSX got hit by a 'Denial of Service' attack that had the effect of having the CADS computer crash, repeatedly until the cause was found. The cause was a virus that 'busied' up to communications links between the CADS computers and the headquarters Main Frame computers. For successful operation these systems are constantly passing elements of data back and forth between the systems. It took about 72 hours from the onset of the problem to having virus removed from the infected systems and getting operations back to 'normal'. Wow, the worst situation we've had was a crash a couple years ago that turned everything west of Jasper into the infamous 'Blue Screen of Death' for an afternoon, nothing could move and none of the Dispatchers knew where trains were until it was resolved. I can't imagine the congestion a three day outage would do. Did CSX ever figure out where the virus originated?
BaltACD About 20 years ago CSX got hit by a 'Denial of Service' attack that had the effect of having the CADS computer crash, repeatedly until the cause was found. The cause was a virus that 'busied' up to communications links between the CADS computers and the headquarters Main Frame computers. For successful operation these systems are constantly passing elements of data back and forth between the systems. It took about 72 hours from the onset of the problem to having virus removed from the infected systems and getting operations back to 'normal'.
About 20 years ago CSX got hit by a 'Denial of Service' attack that had the effect of having the CADS computer crash, repeatedly until the cause was found. The cause was a virus that 'busied' up to communications links between the CADS computers and the headquarters Main Frame computers. For successful operation these systems are constantly passing elements of data back and forth between the systems. It took about 72 hours from the onset of the problem to having virus removed from the infected systems and getting operations back to 'normal'.
Wow, the worst situation we've had was a crash a couple years ago that turned everything west of Jasper into the infamous 'Blue Screen of Death' for an afternoon, nothing could move and none of the Dispatchers knew where trains were until it was resolved. I can't imagine the congestion a three day outage would do.
Did CSX ever figure out where the virus originated?
Being on the Dispatching side and not being a part of management - I never heard where the virus originated or who was responsible.
During the period of time CADS was crashing repeatedly, the system ground to a halt - when the system was up - signals could be lined ahead of trains and they would function properly even though CADS could crash immediately AFTER the signal had been lined. The crashes started in the wee hours of the morning and the cause was deduced about Noon of that day - with that the communications links between the Main Frame and CADS were turned off and operations were 'restarted' using different means of communication without using the Main Frame. Consist information was obtained from the yards in direct phone calls between Dispatchers and the yards. Train Message data was printed off locally and 'hand faxed' to the necessary outlying points for delivery to train crews - who, because of CSX Rules, had to call back to the Dispatch Center and repeate the contents of the Train Messages to get the OK to use them. This type of operation continued for 24-36 hours until the issues caused by the virus were fully understood and satisfactorily fixed. Subsequently things got back to normal.
Knowing you have a virus is just the start of the ordeal - figuring out what the virus is actually doing and how to combat it is not a simple as flipping a light switch.
I have no real idea of what additional security was added to all the systems, both CADS and Main Frame.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
For additional clarification, there was only one GPS system. The difference between military and civilian was the precision of the transmitted fix... and the double-precision was unlocked years ago.
I am quietly concerned with beacon-spoofing as so much of our current differential architecture seems to rely on them in one sense or another.
OvermodThe difference between military and civilian was the precision of the transmitted fix... and the double-precision was unlocked years ago.
Not exactly, the difference is in the signals recieved and you cannot access the military with a civilian unit because civilian units are not equipped to do so.
OvermodI am quietly concerned with beacon-spoofing as so much of our current differential architecture seems to rely on them in one sense or another.
Which largely is a fear that is limited to civilian applications of GPS.
Overmod For additional clarification, there was only one GPS system. The difference between military and civilian was the precision of the transmitted fix... and the double-precision was unlocked years ago. Actually the USA has one system and China and Russia each have their own setups. The USA system was the first one the USSR reverse engineered it in the mid to late 80s right before the end of the cold war. China basically bought the old Soviet system from them. The modern USA system is used for most nations but Russia and China prefer theirs for their military. Why the fear if they ever went to war with the USA cutting off their access. But as to your fear of beacon spoofing if from what I found out from asking our satcom people is there's backups for the backups already in place for the US sytem. So even if one satalite is spoofed another takes over and you would barely notice the problem. I am quietly concerned with beacon-spoofing as so much of our current differential architecture seems to rely on them in one sense or another.
Actually the USA has one system and China and Russia each have their own setups. The USA system was the first one the USSR reverse engineered it in the mid to late 80s right before the end of the cold war. China basically bought the old Soviet system from them. The modern USA system is used for most nations but Russia and China prefer theirs for their military. Why the fear if they ever went to war with the USA cutting off their access. But as to your fear of beacon spoofing if from what I found out from asking our satcom people is there's backups for the backups already in place for the US sytem. So even if one satalite is spoofed another takes over and you would barely notice the problem.
CMStPnP blue streak 1 GPS system to shutdown Just for clarification, there are two GPS systems in the United States. Civilian and Military. Putin only has the capability to spoof the civilian GPS in relatively small geographic areas. Civilian GPS is deliberately not as accurate as Military to prevent an opponent from using it for smart weapons. He can't mess with the Military GPS (more accurate and used for our smart weapons and the Military). Our troops are trained to operate GPS free......just in case.
blue streak 1 GPS system to shutdown
What Streak said is in large part true, given a powerful enough jammer, it's trivial to deny access to GPS. GLONASS, Galileo, etc over a given area. One of the problems with the LightSquared application to use the frequencies next to the GPS channels for terrestrial communications which would have interfered with the vast majority of GPS receivers.
I was working a local out of Glenwood during the CSX virus problem. We couldn't get train messages for three days, even though Jacksonville was sending them over a fax machine. They kept saying they were sent but they never arrived. I finally asked what number they were sending them to. It turned out that they had a number that hadn't been used for years.
Joe's Pizza Shop or someone was probably wondering what all the gibberish coming over their fax was for.
Someday the total reliance on electronics in everything is going to bite us hard, whether it is caused intentionally or by nature.
Erik_Maggiven a powerful enough jammer
Who has that exactly? Also who has overcome the anti-spoofing and anti-jamming capabilities of a U.S. military reciever. I am just curious because the military has spent a lot of money in this area. I never heard it happening in any conflict. I've heard of our military jamming others GPS access (civilian GPS I believe) but not the reverse.
BBC report on Ukraine train service.
Pushchair passed over heads in desperate train station scenes - BBC Newss
CMStPnPWho has that exactly?
Given the higher frequencies in use by GPS, it would be difficult to jam from terrestial locations (like a ship off shore) for any distance, but it could probably be done. Just a brute force, high powered signal would be enough to cause problems. And that could wreak havoc on GPS use along the coasts.
Pulling that off further inland would involve, well, spies, if you will.
Doing it from space would imply that said interference was planned well ahead of time.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
BMPT-72 Urban Combat Vehicles were spotted in a train headed for Ukraine
https://imgur.com/Af5Jyl1
https://imgur.com/a/nsoV6l2
Nine are in service with Russia, all in the 90th Tank Division. They were developed after Ivan had his head handed to him in Grozny by the Chechens. The white patches are hastily applied whitewash in an attempt at camouflage
mvlandswSomeday the total reliance on electronics in everything is going to bite us hard, whether it is caused intentionally or by nature.
Something I've believed for years. I've called it a "Digital Titanic."
It hasn't happened yet, but it won't surprise me if someday it does.
mvlandswI was working a local out of Glenwood during the CSX virus problem. We couldn't get train messages for three days, even though Jacksonville was sending them over a fax machine. They kept saying they were sent but they never arrived. I finally asked what number they were sending them to. It turned out that they had a number that hadn't been used for years. Joe's Pizza Shop or someone was probably wondering what all the gibberish coming over their fax was for. Someday the total reliance on electronics in everything is going to bite us hard, whether it is caused intentionally or by nature.
One thing that cropped up over time - the CSX 'TechnoFax' system required manual input of the correct telephone numbers. Over time with the explosion of cell phones areas were running out of telephone numbers and in many cases specific locations had their area codes changed as the telephone systems responded to the increased demand for telephone numbers.
In some cases, like Maryland, the new area codes just overlayed the service areas of existing area codes - old numbers still existed they just had to be dial with the full area code when calls are made from within the area code - this didn't affect the TechnoFax system as it was already using the 10 digit number, however, in the more frequent case, new geographical boundaries were given to area codes and the existing boundaries got redefined. Thus a fax location that had been set up with a 904 area code could be place in a new area code area such as 562 and thus Technofax is dialing the wrong number after the change.
The Technofax was normally utilized for about 2 hours every Sunday morning 0045 to 0300 when the CSX Main Frame went through its weekly update maintenance. Needless to say - on a routine basis - very few of the TechnoFax destinations were being exercised during this time period as the operation in general was designed around the outage to limit the need to use the TechnoFax means of communication.
Technically, the term for spoofing is "Meaconing" - a term the British invented when they applied it against German air raids in World War 2
Meaconing - Wikipedia
Shadow the Cats ownerBut as to your fear of beacon spoofing -- from what I found out from asking our satcom people is there's backups for the backups already in place for the US system. So even if one satellite is spoofed another takes over and you would barely notice the problem.
Flintlock76 I've called it a "Digital Titanic."
I like that, and intend to use it.
Convicted One Flintlock76 I've called it a "Digital Titanic." I like that, and intend to use it.
Feel free to, and with my blessing! It ain't copyrighted, so don't worry!
It already happens sporadically, but not because of hostile intentions. Unless you figure a backhoe operator who didn't bother to call "811" as hostile...
We recently had comms in five counties in northern New York affected by just such an event. Local calling, etc, was not affected, but anything long-line was, and these days, that would likely include the web.
Our local 9-1-1 system relies on long-line comms to resolve addresses. Our public safety radio system uses microwave, so an errant backhoe isn't a problem.
But my first thought when I saw that comment was that back in the dark ages, when I was a kid, we wandered the streets, went to school, etc, and so on, with no communications but a land-line telephone at the house, at the school office, at work, or at a payphone (and mom yelling out the door, "Johnny, time for supper"). If you wanted to talk to your friends, you had to hope mom didn't need the phone, or you just went to their house and talked to them face to face. Kids these days are getting cell phones at younger and younger ages, and many of today's parents would freak out if they were forced back to the environment of my youth.
tree68 many of today's parents would freak out if they were forced back to the environment of my youth.
Makes me think of the somewhat eccentric character played by Gene Hackman in the movie "Enemy of the State" where he asserts that the more accustomed one becomes to enjoying the benefits of all the available services, then the more "they" own you.
tree68many of today's parents would freak out if they were forced back to the environment of my youth.
I suspect that many of us old-timers would freak out if we were forced back into the environment of our parents' youths.
tree68Kids these days are getting cell phones at younger and younger ages, and many of today's parents would freak out if they were forced back to the environment of my youth.
We were up in northern New Jersey when Hurricane Sandy hit, knocking out power all over the area. The newspapers that managed to publish, and most did, were full of pictures and stories of young people addicted to their SmartPhones having meltdowns because they couldn't recharge them and they had everything on those phones. Poor kids, they didn't know what to do!
charlie hebdoI suspect that many of us old-timers would freak out if we were forced back into the environment of our parents' youths.
If you grew up in the late 50's and into the 60's as I (and I suspect you) did you should give us (and yourself) a little more credit. Our parents, who grew up in the 30's and 40's in urban and suburban areas (mine anyway) grew up in a world not too much different from the one we did. Aside from television just about everything we took for granted was in existance in those days.
Although I'll grant you a LOT of us might had trouble with manual shift cars!
(Not me! )
My grandparents DID have a coal furnace in their home in Tenafly NJ, they still had it into the 1960s. They didn't have any trouble keeping it going and in fact if they DID have a power failure the coal furnace still gave them heat and hot water. They had a gas stove so a power failure was no problem there either. The only thing they wouldn't have was electricity for the lights or the radio.
We'd get used to it quickly. You can get used to anything.
I'm with Flintlock on this one.
My generation didn't see the sea change that the current generations have experienced.
Sure, things changed. But I can identify with the life my parents lived, even if I didn't live the same life. I'm fortunate to be aware of that life. My maternal grandfather was, at one point, a lumberjack. My maternal grandmother taught in a one-room schoolhouse. My father's parents ran a coal yard.
I've never milked a cow, but I can drive a tractor and stack hay on a wagon. I've ridden miles on a bike, without Mom knowing where I was.
Today we see things such as kids freaking out because their entire life revolves around a small electronic device. Kids actually walking down the mall together, but communicating with each other on their phones.
There's a facebook meme along the lines of "my kids asked me what it was like when I was a kid, so I took away their Nintendo, their cell phone, and pushed them outside."
tree68 charlie hebdo I suspect that many of us old-timers would freak out if we were forced back into the environment of our parents' youths. I'm with Flintlock on this one. My generation didn't see the sea change that the current generations have experienced. Sure, things changed. But I can identify with the life my parents lived, even if I didn't live the same life. I'm fortunate to be aware of that life. My maternal grandfather was, at one point, a lumberjack. My maternal grandmother taught in a one-room schoolhouse. My father's parents ran a coal yard. I've never milked a cow, but I can drive a tractor and stack hay on a wagon. I've ridden miles on a bike, without Mom knowing where I was. Today we see things such as kids freaking out because their entire life revolves around a small electronic device. Kids actually walking down the mall together, but communicating with each other on their phones. There's a facebook meme along the lines of "my kids asked me what it was like when I was a kid, so I took away their Nintendo, their cell phone, and pushed them outside."
charlie hebdo I suspect that many of us old-timers would freak out if we were forced back into the environment of our parents' youths.
Yep, Back in the mid-fifties, I took one of my one-day this way that way trips using the PRR from Cincinnati to Terre Haute returning via NYC. PRR to Richmond where I was to transfer to the NYC-St.L PennTexas. It hit a car in Dayton and was delayed. This caused me to miss my return train in Terre Haute but NYC had a later train that would put me into Cincinnati later in the evening. BUT there was an AT&T operator strike so I couldn't call home collect. Had to use Western Union to send a telegraph. Then the Chicago-Cincinnati train I was to connect to at Indianapolis got stuck behind a stalled freight N of Lebanon and was not going to get into Cincinnati in time to make the last bus (10 pm) home. Had to call dad from a pay phone (in Cincy) to meet me at the end of the trolley bus route. And LD telephone was expensive. In the 80's when my daughter went to Cincy for College, I got her a touch tone adaptor for the dorm room's rotary phone (local only) so she could reach Sprint to call us or her boy friend.
My Grandfather entered the world in 1892 and was 11 when the Wright Brothers managed to get something heavier than air into the air. He formed his family and my father was born 10 years after the Wright Brothers achievment. I was told my Grandfather's father was a Conductor on horse car moving people about the city of Baltimore. My Grandfather hired out on the B&O in 1910 at a age of 18 and retired in 1957 having seen the coming of diesels and the end of steam being squarely in sight. He embraced 'console' radio and had one about five feet high - a piece of furniture. He normally commuted to and from work at Camden Station using the Baltimore & Annapolis interurbans between his home in Severna Park and downtown - until the B&A expired in 1953. He embraced the telephone - and before a dial system was installed in the early 1960's his telephone number was 'Severna Park 45' which got accessed by a operator with patch cables. When his phone was converted to dial - his number was the assigned three digits for Severna Park with the last four being 4545. After retirement he and his wife would Snowbird in Ormond Beach, FL and make arrangements to have the local Daytona Beach newspaper sent to me during the Daytona Speed Weeks. After his wife passed on from a lingerling illness, my father (retired at the time also) got him to fly to Florida for a vacation. He also got the opportunity to watch man walk on the Moon - quite a transition from when man could not fly. Unfortunately my father preceeded him in death by about 8 years and he died at age 98.
I can't comprehend all the discoveries that went past his eyes during his lifetime. To be honest I can barely comprehend the discoveries that have gone past my own eyes in my 75 years.
The things that impressed my kids the most when they asked me what were the things I remember that were different from their lives:
1. I didn't have TV until I was 15 and we only had 2 channels.
2. I traveled in passenger trains pulled by steam locomotives.
3. I started earning money at the age of 8 [mowing, raking, shoveling snow] and had a steady after school job at the age of 12 that wasn't delivering newspapers [illegal of course but it was common in my area] making 35 cents an hour.
4. Candy bars and soft drinks cost a nickel in my younger years.
5. Phone numbers were first 4 digits then 5 digits in my area.
CMStPnP Erik_Mag given a powerful enough jammer Who has that exactly? Also who has overcome the anti-spoofing and anti-jamming capabilities of a U.S. military reciever. I am just curious because the military has spent a lot of money in this area. I never heard it happening in any conflict. I've heard of our military jamming others GPS access (civilian GPS I believe) but not the reverse.
Erik_Mag given a powerful enough jammer
A little bit of searching for GPS transmitter power came up with 500W effective radiated power (ERP) for the L1 signals. Given that the satellites are very roughly 10,000 miles away, a transmitter 100 miles away would need 50mW ERP to equal the received signal strength from the satellite. A local UHF-TV station was operating with an ERP of 4MW on a frequency not much lower than the L1 signals so it's conceivable that a transmitter could be made that would provide a signal level about 80dB higher than the signals from the satellites which would likely overwhelm any processing gains from the direct sequence spread spectrum modulation used by GPS. This is simply brute force.
500W ERP from 100 miles would probably degrade the accuracy.
Spoofing would require a lot more sophistication, but Iran was apparently able to use GPS spoofing to capture a US drone a number of years ago. I strongly suspect that a fairly spoof resistant receiver could be made by using a good atomic clock, a phased array antenna system and just the civilian GPS channels.
One of my life rules is to never discuss politics or religion. It holds true here.
ccltrainsOne of my life rules is to never discuss politics or religion. It holds true here.
Naked agression against a sovereign peaceful country is worlds beyond politics.
BaltACDNaked agression against a sovereign peaceful country is worlds beyond politics.
Frankly Balt, I'm a little skeptical that we are being given the pure, unvarnished truth. Can't really delve into it adequately here without upsetting the powers, etc. But I do believe that neither side is above distortion.
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