The designated (off-topic) Ukraine war thread

[CMStPnP]

Euclid

An interesting report on the makeup of Putin from this source:   Gravitas Plus | Ukraine War: Understanding Russian President Vladimir Putin 4,141,487 views Premiered Feb 26, 2022   How well do we understand Vladimir Putin? Why is he invading Ukraine? Why isn't he afraid of the consequences? Nothing answers these questions better than stories that have shaped Putin's life. Palki Sharma Upadhyay takes you inside Putin's mind.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJLnZ_rNLOU

Indian source and slanted and more to the point the Australian FM had a discussion with India on their slanted opinion already as well as their absentations from UN votes denouncing Russia on Ukraine.   You can Google articles about it.    India is concerned about it's Russian weapons agreements without which it would have a hard time countering Pakistan.    India is also concerned about third parties interjecting themselves into the Kashmir dispute.   And last India is concerned about the Chinese tilt towards Pakistan and vice versa.    So your not going to get an objective viewpoint from Gravitas.

Do you have any close Indian friends.   If you do suggest you ask some hard questions on how that country operates internally.   I did not have to even ask the hard questions the info was volunteered to me by Indians that stated how fortunate it was they were American now and no longer had to live under Indian rule.    Though they are all very highly proud of Indias accomplishments they know full well it is one of the most corrupt governments on Earth.

[CMStPnP]

charlie hebdo

You act as though you are an expert or have accurate information sources. I see no evidence that you do. Nor are you in a better position to judge Putin's mental state than anyone on here.

So now your upset because my opinions are persuasive.    That is your counter here?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

[CMStPnP]

kgbw49

One wonders how long it will take the Russian army to launch an offensive to cut the Ukraine supply lines from the west. They would not even have to take Lviv, only take control of about a 30-mile-wide corridor along the western boundary of Ukraine.

The whole attack plan looks like a 5th grader put it together.   My guess is Putin had a major hand in it vs Russian Generals.    Typically with an invasion you only have at most two fronts of attack not four.    Increasing the fronts of attack greatly increases the complexity of  execution and it does not have any more impact on the opposing force than two fronts of attack.    So from the very start the Russians handicapped themselves with their plan.    Further by attacking on four sides of a five sided country.........where exactly can the opposing force retreat to?   The Ukrainians really canont retreat in an orderly fashion without the risk of rapid Russian envelopment of a chunk of their Army.   Hence the Russians are actually driving part of the stiff resistence themselves along with their brutal execution of the war. 

Secondly in the West it is so far geographically from their military equipment that they do not have adequate air support and my guess is the Ukrainian Air Defense in the West is particularly potent because not only do they have their systems they can rely in part on overlap from the Polish systems for early warning.    Not saying that is going on but it could be.    We have no idea what intel the Poles are passing across the border but the Poles as a NATO country definitely can see far into Ukrainian airspace as well as what is on the ground with ground radar and satellites.   So that is my guess why you only see missiles being fired past the middle of Ukraine into West Ukraine and it is the newer Russian missile models they think can overcome NATO defenses.   Seems to me the Russians think that NATO is assisting with air defense in the West Ukraine in some way.

 

[Paul of Covington]

   I haven't joined this discussion since I don't have the knowledge about it that everyone else does, but here are a couple of PBS Frontline programs that I found interesting:

   On the War:

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/putins-road-to-war/

   Background On Putin (2015):

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/putins-way/

 

 

[Euclid]

CMStPnP

 

 

Euclid

An interesting report on the makeup of Putin from this source:   Gravitas Plus | Ukraine War: Understanding Russian President Vladimir Putin 4,141,487 views Premiered Feb 26, 2022   How well do we understand Vladimir Putin? Why is he invading Ukraine? Why isn't he afraid of the consequences? Nothing answers these questions better than stories that have shaped Putin's life. Palki Sharma Upadhyay takes you inside Putin's mind:

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJLnZ_rNLOU

 

 

 

 

Indian source and slanted and more to the point the Australian FM had a discussion with India on their slanted opinion already as well as their absentations from UN votes denouncing Russia on Ukraine.   You can Google articles about it.    India is concerned about it's Russian weapons agreements without which it would have a hard time countering Pakistan.    India is also concerned about third parties interjecting themselves into the Kashmir dispute.   And last India is concerned about the Chinese tilt towards Pakistan and vice versa.    So your not going to get an objective viewpoint from Gravitas.

Do you have any close Indian friends.   If you do suggest you ask some hard questions on how that country operates internally.   I did not have to even ask the hard questions the info was volunteered to me by Indians that stated how fortunate it was they were American now and no longer had to live under Indian rule.    Though they are all very highly proud of Indias accomplishments they know full well it is one of the most corrupt governments on Earth.

 

I knew you would say that when I posted it.  But why would an Indian news source post an unflattering story about Putin, considering the pro-Russian bias you say the India source has?

 

I have learned to start with the premise that all information I receive is false, and then just process it with my intuition in relation to all other information to develop some sense of what is coming next.  What I like about that article from WION is the absolutely stunning, well-spoken clarity of the delivery.  That is pure genius. 

 

I also feel it that is likely to be true because it conflicts with the pro-Russia bias that you warn about.  The fact that WION would report in conflict with what you say is their bias tells me that they have no ulterior motive in reporting on the dangerous character in Putin.    

 

WION has also run a similarly clear spoken analysis of how NATO has expressed a constant pushback of aggression against Putin and how there is much more to Putin’s motivation in attacking Ukraine than most people realize.  That of course would support your point about WION being bias in favor of Russia.  But the fact WION reports those diametrically opposed viewpoints supports the premise that they are fundamentally balanced and unbiased.   So it makes both positions more likely to be true. 

[Steven Otte]

Although we are bending the Forum rules by allowing this off-topic thread in the first place, I must insist that we otherwise adhere to the guidelines of remaining civil, impersonal, and respectful in our discussions here. If this thread degenerates, it will be deleted. I'm not going to spend my time cleaning up a fight in an off-topic thread.

That being said: Anyone who I perceive as trying to provoke a fight in order to get this thread killed will, instead, themselves be banned.

[Backshop]

There are constant patrols along the Polish-Ukrainian border by AWACS and Elint planes. I'm sure they are constantly giving information about Russian movements and launches to Ukraine.  They are also storing infor for "future use", if need be.

[CMStPnP]

Euclid

But the fact WION reports those diametrically opposed viewpoints supports the premise that they are fundamentally balanced and unbiased.   So it makes both positions more likely to be true. 

The channel is also owned by a Billionaire Member of India's Parliament whom belongs to one of it's major political parties.     Which I guess you could roughly say is analogous to FOX NEWS and Roger Ailes prior to Roger Ailes departure.   In my opinion it is still slightly more of a biased setup than FOX due to the much more direct political connection to India's government.

[Fr.Al]

I am not trying to provoke a fight. I just don't see why this topic has to be discussed in a forum dedicated to trains.

     As a railfan, I come here to get away from politics. As a priest, I don't come here to push my religion on anyone. Surely there are enough other places to discuss politics or religion. One man's opinion.

[Euclid]

Fr.Al

I am not trying to provoke a fight. I just don't see why this topic has to be discussed in a forum dedicated to trains.

     As a railfan, I come here to get away from politics. As a priest, I don't come here to push my religion on anyone. Surely there are enough other places to discuss politics or religion. One man's opinion.

 

Fr.Al,

I understand your point, but this thread is not about politics or religion.  It is about a monumental current event that is drawing a lot of attention.  The thread was approved by the moderators for discussing this topic.  Anyone who does not want to participate or be exposed to the conversation is free to just not open this thread.    

[Fr.Al]

Yes, but it has become a vehicle for anti-Russian bigotry. We would not tolerate racist or anti-Semitic sentiment here, nor should we. 

[charlie hebdo]

CMStPnP

 

 

charlie hebdo

You act as though you are an expert or have accurate information sources. I see no evidence that you do. Nor are you in a better position to judge Putin's mental state than anyone on here.

 

 So now your upset because my opinions are persuasive.    That is your counter here?

 

You can no more answer my observation in a factual manner, any more than you're able to refute Euclid's remarks with relevant facts.

 

 

 

 

[Backshop]

I prefer to think of it as sentiment against a country that attacked another sovereign country for no reason and now is threatening the rest of  the world with nuclear war.

[Convicted One]

Fr.Al

Yes, but it has become a vehicle for anti-Russian bigotry. We would not tolerate racist or anti-Semitic sentiment here, nor should we. 

 

There  is a strong sense of community here, particularly among some members. As such, it might be of interest to see how  "ol so-and-so" feels about a current event that is touching all our lives.

 Since it is prohibited in the local Terms of Service to solicit traffic away from this site to a neutral venue, and since the Private Messaging system here is all but completely broken, that leaves very few alternatives.

So, I'm appreciative for the leeway and tolerance that the host has shown, up to this point.

 I do agree with you that the acutely anti-Russian tone of several of these posts are both regrettable and unnecessary.  But not completely unexpected, either.

[charlie hebdo]

Backshop

I prefer to think of it as sentiment against a country that attacked another sovereign country for no reason and now is threatening the rest of  the world with nuclear war.

 

I agree.  The opinions on here are not racist or anti-Semitic or particularly anti-Russian. I for one sympathize with the brave Russians who demonstrate against the Putin regime.

Is there someone here who actually thinks Russia was justified in launching an attack on another sovereign nation (sovereignty to which Russia was a signatory). If so, what is your source?  

 

[York1]

deleted by poster

 

[Euclid]

charlie hebdo

Is there someone here who actually thinks Russia was justified in launching an attack on another sovereign nation (sovereignty to which Russia was a signatory). If so, what is your source?  

I doubt that anybody here believes that.  Obviously Putin believes that.  Worldwide, there are probably millions who believe that.  There are published narratives of the theory that indicate Putin has a valid point, but what I have seen stops way short of agreeing with his resolution by attacking Ukraine.  Even if Putin were judged to have a legitimate grievance, what he is doing in Ukraine is out of bounds. 

 

The narrative that agrees with Putin’s narrative need not convince people that Putin is justified in invading Ukraine.  But it does explain why Putin thinks he is justified.  Without that explanation, his actions make it impossible to know thy enemy.

[Convicted One]

Euclid

I doubt that anybody here believes that.

 

I believe there is more to the story than is out in the open.  It's easy to pound our fists declaring "right" from "wrong" based upon no more than the talking points we've been spoon fed. But that is amall assurance that the opinion driving those fists are  fully informed.  Which (IMO)  in a way reveals the folly of proposing to draw authorative conclusion on a rail message board.  

We are told only what the muckie-mucks WANT us to know.

[charlie hebdo]

Convicted One

 

 

Euclid

I doubt that anybody here believes that.

 

 

 

I believe there is more to the story than is out in the open.  It's easy to pound our fists declaring "right" from "wrong" based upon no more than the talking points we've been spoon fed. But that is amall assurance that the opinion driving those fists are  fully informed.  Which (IMO)  in a way reveals the folly of having such discourse on a rail message board.  

We are told only what the muckie-mucks WANT us to know.

 

So let's have a straight, definitive answer to the question I posed above, plus one more. Do you think think videos of cities in Ukraine and interviews with Ukrainians are real?

[Convicted One]

Charlie, don't take this personal, because it is in no way intended as such,  but If I posted what I really think is going on, this thread would get closed down, and there is a good chance that I'd be placed on moderation.

Neither of which do I have  much desire for.

Yes, I do think the pictures of damage are real. I just don't feel well enough informed to pass definitive judgement.

Years ago I dated a gal who emigrated here from Lech Walesa's Poland.  And I can tell you with certainty that the concept we knew as the "Iron Curtain" was seen in an entirely different perspective from within than the one we westerners were conditioned to see it as.

 

So, it isn't hard for me to surmise that artistic privilege is still shading the "truth"  prepared for our consumption.  That's really about as indepth as I can go without risking the ire of swift and certain moderation.   

[charlie hebdo]

Yes news can be spun and shaded. However if you check news from a variety of sources in various countries, one finds a consensus. 

I have a friend who works for CCTV in China. She has clearly explained how the government manages the news there. In the case of Ukraine, they were simply repeating translated news releases from Moscow until recently.

Another friend, Bob Woodward, has made it clear to me that the US governmental line is not simply repeated in the entire US press, though some unspecified media do.

There is a relatively objective reality, not the false eauivalency perspective you and others choose to espouse.

[Convicted One]

You see? I just don't buy the "Putin is the Boogieman" narrative. I don't believe that he gets up every morning and says "well, I'm the bad guy, so how can I outdo myself today?"

 I have to suspect that for what ever reason, he feels his motives to be just .  AND SINCE OUR SOURCES REFUSE to be more deliberate in that area,  I suspect the  claimed aura of mystery is likely crafted for effect more than we have been allowed to know

[CMStPnP]

Convicted One

We are told only what the muckie-mucks WANT us to know.

My ISP is AT&T and it reaches well into the U.S. Army,  Poland, Ukraine and into several recent Russian emigre communities.   I stay away from attempting direct contacts with Russia because at some point that means hackers and trolls.    So why are you having problems getting first person accounts here and why do you have to even rely on the media?    Also, BTW, most news articles come with an email of the author in which you can also ask questions for their first person account if they choose to answer.

[Convicted One]

charlie hebdo

not the false eauivalency perspective you and others choose to espouse.

 

Pure excelsior. Consider our dialog concluded.

[CMStPnP]

Convicted One

AND SINCE OUR SOURCES REFUSE to be more deliberate in that area, 

Your supposed to search for the truth.   Not sit back and listen to what others tell you.

[Backshop]

Convicted One

Years ago I dated a gal who emigrated here from Lech Walesa's Poland.  And I can tell you with certainty that the concept we knew as the "Iron Curtain" was seen in an entirely different perspective from within than the one we westerners were conditioned to see it as. 

While I agree that all news is slanted to some degree, I'll posit that our news is more acccurate than what the "other side" said.  It's telling that so many Eastern European countries joined NATO the first chance that they got.  They did it voluntarily, unlike when they joined the Warsaw Pact.

[Convicted One]

Again knowing that I am repeating myself. But If I really laid out my true feelings on this matter,  I'd be "back in chains". 

[CMStPnP]

Backshop

It's telling that so many Eastern European countries joined NATO the first chance that they got.  They did it voluntarily, unlike when they joined the Warsaw Pact. Add Quote to your Post

Russia threatened each on of them with implied invasion prior to them joining NATO which drove them into NATO's arms further.    Did you read Medeveds comments recently about Poland learning to retun to the embrace of Russia?    Very insulting to their history and very arrogant thing to say.    Thats a big reason why Poland is in NATO today.   

Russian government and a chunk of the extremist Russians in power are their own worst enemy.    Medeved also stated on his tour of the Kuril Isles years ago that Russia had no intention of returning them to Japan.    Again, very arrogant and shortsighted thing to say publicly to a Pacific Powerhouse that could invest tons of money to build up Eastern Russia and is willing to do so after settlement of their border dispute which land wise is tiny.    They complain the United States is holding back Russia............it is actually their arrogance, public comments and foriegn policy choices with countries other than the United States.

[Euclid]

charlie hebdo

 

 

Convicted One

 

 

Euclid

I doubt that anybody here believes that.

 

 

 

I believe there is more to the story than is out in the open.  It's easy to pound our fists declaring "right" from "wrong" based upon no more than the talking points we've been spoon fed. But that is amall assurance that the opinion driving those fists are  fully informed.  Which (IMO)  in a way reveals the folly of having such discourse on a rail message board.  

We are told only what the muckie-mucks WANT us to know.

 

 

 

 

So let's have a straight, definitive answer to the question I posed above, plus one more. Do you think think videos of cities in Ukraine and interviews with Ukrainians are real?

 

 

I attempted to answer your question a few posts back when I responded as follows.  Of course I don’t really know what others here believe.  I am totally against what Putin is doing in Ukraine.  But I am aware of there being, historically, two sides to the issue that has brought us to this point.  One of those sides is the reason Putin is doing what he is doing.  That does not mean that I agree with Putin’s side in the grievance.  Earlier post reply to your question:

 

charlie hebdo

Is there someone here who actually thinks Russia was justified in launching an attack on another sovereign nation (sovereignty to which Russia was a signatory). If so, what is your source?  

 

Euclid

I doubt that anybody here believes that.  Obviously Putin believes that.  Worldwide, there are probably millions who believe that.  There are published narratives of the theory that indicate Putin has a valid point, but what I have seen stops way short of agreeing with his resolution by attacking Ukraine.  Even if Putin were judged to have a legitimate grievance, what he is doing in Ukraine is out of bounds. 

[BaltACD]

Having a seat and voice in the UN General Assembly is all the bonafides that a country needs to be considered a sovereign nation in the eyes of the world.