Then there's the Chernobyl tank assault.
Nope, not the one you're thinking of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz2nhRaBjQo
Euclid Video on Russia’s possible use of tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine: US Intelligence Report Says Russia’s Doctrine Of ‘Escalate To De-Escalate’ Could Involve Using Tactical Nuclear Weapons In Ukraine https://eurasiantimes.com/russia-involve-using-tactical-nuclear-weapons-in-ukraine/ Quote from the link: “Strategic And Tactical Nukes According to experts, the risk in Ukraine is not the use of giant “strategic” nuclear weapons, but “tactical” nuclear weapons with smaller warheads that will cause localized devastation.”
Euclid Euclid Video on Russia’s possible use of tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine: US Intelligence Report Says Russia’s Doctrine Of ‘Escalate To De-Escalate’ Could Involve Using Tactical Nuclear Weapons In Ukraine https://eurasiantimes.com/russia-involve-using-tactical-nuclear-weapons-in-ukraine/ Quote from the link: “Strategic And Tactical Nukes According to experts, the risk in Ukraine is not the use of giant “strategic” nuclear weapons, but “tactical” nuclear weapons with smaller warheads that will cause localized devastation.” From the article: https://eurasiantimes.com/russia-involve-using-tactical-nuclear-weapons-in-ukraine/ Russia retains the right to use nuclear weapons if the country is “provoked” by NATO, Moscow’s Deputy Ambassador to the UN told Sky News on March 24. “If Russia is provoked by NATO, if Russia is attacked by NATO, why not, we are a nuclear power”, said Dmitry Polyanskiy when asked if President Putin was right to hold the prospect of nuclear war over the rest of the world. The senior Russian Diplomat made these remarks after Kremlin’s chief spokesman Dmitry Peskov said in an interview with CNN that Putin would use nuclear weapons if there is an existential threat to Russia. “It’s not the right thing to threaten Russia and to try to interfere. So when you’re dealing with a nuclear power, of course, you have to calculate all the possible outcomes of your behaviour,” Polyanskiy further said. ************************************************* “If Russia is provoked by NATO, if Russia is attacked by NATO, if there is an existential threat to Russia." Three independent triggers. No requirement for all three to occur in order to trigger. Any one will trigger. A lot depends on what Putin is able to do on his individual command. He has already said that the sanctions are an act of war against Russia. He also said that he will target weapon shipments into Ukraine from NATO countries. We have said that the Polish jets were too provocative and risked starting WWIII. Provocative? What does that mean in the official definitions of doctrines of war? I would conclude the provocation can easily cross borders. Do you think these issues of NATO helping Ukraine and sanctioning Russia “provoke” Putin? In Putin’s mind, is there really a hard line between being defeated in Ukraine with the help of NATO from outside of Ukraine; and having NATO actually enter Ukraine and help? Provocation and threat are largely in the mind of the one they are supposedly happening to. They have no universal standard of measure.
I stand by my previous statements. Your misinterpreting the statements made by the Russian government and even if they wanted to use Tactical Nukes there are just not enough numerically for use in a campaign beyond a warning shot. Which they would not waste on Ukraine given the other weapons in their aresenal. Ukraine is not enough of a threat to them by itself and they would never reach the level of desparation fighting Ukraine unless the Ukrainain Army was able to push out of its borders into Russia and approach Moscow. Which will never happen without NATO entering the war.
CMStPnPThe whole tangental discussion of if he is crazy or not crazy is a side issue that should never impact our actions.
In the case of a dictator of a major (nuclear) power, his or her personality and mental stability is very much a strategic factor.
CMStPnPI stand by my previous statements. Your misinterpreting the statements made by the Russian government and even if they wanted to use Tactical Nukes there are just not enough numerically for use in a campaign beyond a warning shot. Which they would not waste on Ukraine given the other weapons in their aresenal. Ukraine is not enough of a threat to them by itself and they would never reach the level of desparation fighting Ukraine unless the Ukrainain Army was able to push out of its borders into Russia and approach Moscow. Which will never happen without NATO entering the war.
Obviously so. Thanks, Euclid.
charlie hebdoIn the case of a dictator of a major (nuclear) power, his or her personality and mental stability is very much a strategic factor.
Which is a statement that contradicts itself. "The man is crazy so lets see if we can appease him to modify his behavior". Wait a minute you just said he was crazy. You will never reach the goal this way and it will be like forever chasing a carrot on a stick. Additionally psychoanalysis of a leader of a country your at war with is also another form of analysis paralysis. Your forever creating hypothetical rabbit holes and land mines impeding your decision making on what to do.
CMStPnP charlie hebdo In the case of a dictator of a major (nuclear) power, his or her personality and mental stability is very much a strategic factor. Which is a statement that contradicts itself. "The man is crazy so lets see if we can appease him to modify his behavior". Wait a minute you just said he was crazy. You will never reach the goal this way and it will be like forever chasing a carrot on a stick. Additionally psychoanalysis of a leader of a country your at war with is also another form of analysis paralysis. Your forever creating hypothetical rabbit holes and land mines impeding your decision making on what to do.
charlie hebdo In the case of a dictator of a major (nuclear) power, his or her personality and mental stability is very much a strategic factor.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
This may be more essential with battling Putin than with most other adversaries. The basic point is to know what your enemy is likely to do next. It is a critical requirement for any competition. Dismissing it as just determining whether an opponent is crazy or not is nonsense.
EuclidI don't think I am misinterpreting the statementes of the Russian government regarding what it would take to trigger them into a nuclear response. For one thing, I am not convinced that they speak for Putin. And the statements do refer to provocation. I see no definition as to what they believe constitutes sufficent provocation.
I think if you ever did research prior to your posts you would see it was laid out by Mr. Putin himself quite clearly much before the Ukraine war. He also used the term extensial threat. Ukraine is not now and was not before a threat to Russia militarily.....period and does not figure into the statement. You took what the diplomat stated and connected dots he did not connect so that it would fit your argument. Where did he mention Ukraine as a threat in his statement for example? As for the rest of your post. I am not the only poster here refuting your statements several others have tried.
I am moving on as the others have done.
Euclid It is a matter of knowing your enemy. It is not a distraction to make this effort to know your enemy. It is an essential ingredient to the winning formula. https://suntzusaid.com/book/3/18 This may be more essential with battling Putin than with most other adversaries. The basic point is to know what your enemy is likely to do next. It is a critical requirement for any competition. Dismissing it as just determining whether an opponent is crazy or not is nonsense.
Did I say any of the above? No I don't believe I did. I stated you should hold the country accountable for the actions taken not the leader. Putin himself hasn't fired a shot in Ukraine. Did we hold Hitler accountable and excuse everyone else? Again,.... moving on.
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Oh my! I never said Putin was crazy. It's not a term we use professionally. I actually said he is a sociopath who is possibly decompensating. If you don't comprehend the importance of understanding the mindset of an enemy, then that's about all one could expect from you.
How different this war would have been if Ukraine had had the following defensive weapons in its arsenal before the conflict started:
100 land-based Harpoons on mobile launching platforms
200 M109A7 Paladin Artillery System units
50 surveilance drones capable of identifying the source of incoming artillery fire for targeting counter battery fire
1,000 BGM-71 TOW 2B anti-tank missiles mounted on a variety of Hummers, and other wheeled vehicles
While it is a bit wishful thinking, these defensive armaments plus a steady supply of Javelins and Stingers would have made for an even more prickly porcupine.
kgbw49 How different this war would have been if Ukraine had had the following defensive weapons in its arsenal before the conflict started: 100 land-based Harpoons on mobile launching platforms 200 M109A7 Paladin Artillery System units 50 surveilance drones capable of identifying the source of incoming artillery fire for targeting counter battery fire 1,000 BGM-71 TOW 2B anti-tank missiles mounted on a variety of Hummers, and other wheeled vehicles While it is a bit wishful thinking, these defensive armaments plus a steady supply of Javelins and Stingers would have made for an even more prickly porcupine.
What was the reason for not providing those weapons to Urkraine? The invasion was said to a certainty. What would the cost of those items have been and how quickly could they have been gotten there?
CMStPnPWhich is a statement that contradicts itself. "The man is crazy so lets see if we can appease him to modify his behavior". Wait a minute you just said he was crazy. You will never reach the goal this way and it will be like forever chasing a carrot on a stick. Additionally psychoanalysis of a leader of a country your at war with is also another form of analysis paralysis. Your forever creating hypothetical rabbit holes and land mines impeding your decision making on what to do.
Nobody every said or implied that. The point of judging his thought process is to predict what he might do in a war, so you can better prepare for it. It has nothing do with excusing or appeasing him because he has some type of mental issue.
Chicago Milwaukee Saint Pal and Pacific
Not often that I am impelled to defend Euclid but:
Yes, there were war-crimes trials, and leaders who commited crimes received great punishment, death or long prison terms.
The average German suffered as the result of war's devistation, but was not specifically punished. Isn't there a logical reason for this difference?
Does the average Russian know that Russia has bombed schools and hospitals?
It would have taken the US to recognize that Russia was not bluffing about invading Ukraine, and a strategic resolute decision to arm up Ukraine as the Russians built up.
In a previous post way back at the start of the conflict I mentioned the agricultural output if Ukraine. Much like the Plains States are the breadbasket of the US, so is Ukraine the breadbasket of Europe. For example, about 1/6 of the world's corn and wheat comes from Ukraine.
None of that, or at best very little, is going to be planted and harvested this year. There will be food shortages in 2023 as a result.
This war is a rolling disaster for the people of Ukraine and also in a delayed reaction, for people around the globe because of the impending food shortage.
The conventional wisdom projection was that Ukraine would fall in a few days. Russia would quickly take over and then it would be business as usual in Ukraine but with the Russians in charge.
Like so many projections of the US Govenment, it was wrong. The Russians were not capable of executing a Thunder Run like the US Army in Kuwait or Iraq, and the Ukraine people are clearly made of very tough stuff, probably due to defending their imperfect democracy, but still a democracy, compared to the government of Saddam.
So the Russians have reverted to their usual grinding war of attrition as has been their history. Siege, bombardment, and conscript as many expendable infantry as needed while turning cities and towns to rubble, artillery shell by artillery shell.
And while that happens, 1/6 of the world's wheat and corn will not be planted this year and the bountiful crop lands of Ukraine will lay fallow.
A reminder: Keep domestic politics out of this thread. And for those who say "I don't know what you're talking about, I don't see any violations," that's because I deleted them.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
kgbw49The conventional wisdom projection was that Ukraine would fall in a few days. Russia would quickly take over and then it would be business as usual in Ukraine but with the Russians in charge.
This was what Russian intelligence might have thought. It at least what Putin thought. He apparently believed that Russian troops would be welcomed with flowers as liberators.
It's exactly as I stated before, same diplomat. The diplomat was clarifying for people that connected dots that were not in the original statement:
https://www.axios.com/ukraine-russia-war-nuclear-weapons-fff70393-586f-4fe6-8e59-8bae85c9c47a.html?utm_medium=partner&utm_source=verizon&utm_content=edit&utm_campaign=subs-partner-vmg
daveklepper Chicago Milwaukee Saint Pal and Pacific Not often that I am impelled to defend Euclid but: Yes, there were war-crimes trials, and leaders who commited crimes received great punishment, death or long prison terms. The average German suffered as the result of war's devistation, but was not specifically punished. Isn't there a logical reason for this difference? Does the average Russian know that Russia has bombed schools and hospitals?
kgbw4900 BGM-71 TOW 2B anti-tank missiles mounted on a variety of Hummers, and other wheeled vehicles
Is TOW2B same as ITAS TOW? They keep changing the name.
CMStPnPGerman war memorials all accept the German people were responsible and did not do enough to expunge the Hitler regime (yes they mention the various coup attempts but state it was far too little).
Can you show an example of this?
charlie hebdoCan you show an example of this?
It's in the historical literature they hand out to tourists at Riechstag and Bergen Belsen Concentration Camp as well as the Chronological board at Bergen-Belsen and Riechstag (though now that the Riechstag is an active chamber, who knows if it is still there (probably still there but may have moved it)..........should still be on the chronology board at Bergen Belsen. You know where those are geophraphically located, right? Maybe on your next visit.
Well in at least one respect, perhaps their conquest of Chernobyl was not as clean as I thought. I cannot believe the complete disregard for Russian Soldiers lives the Russian chain of command has. I could possibly understand it with a larger military but with a downsized military this the fast lane to a broken Army....
https://www.yahoo.com/news/unprotected-russian-soldiers-disturbed-radioactive-165419388.html
CMStPnP charlie hebdo Can you show an example of this? It's in the historical literature they hand out to tourists at Riechstag and Bergen Belsen Concentration Camp as well as the Chronological board at Bergen-Belsen and Riechstag (though now that the Riechstag is an active chamber, who knows if it is still there (probably still there but may have moved it)..........should still be on the chronology board at Bergen Belsen. You know where those are geophraphically located, right? Maybe on your next visit.
charlie hebdo Can you show an example of this?
Yes, I do. What you claim is said about the guilt of all Germans is not in evidence in online pamphlets from Bergen-Belsen, at the Reichstag or Dachau or Buchenwald, the latter three of which I have paid mutiple visits.
As usual, you make statements which you cannot back up with hard evidence, then try to worm out of make a snide comment.
charlie hebdoYes, I do. What you claim is said about the guilt of all Germans is not in evidence in online pamphlets from Bergen-Belsen, at the Reichstag or Dachau or Buchenwald, the latter three of which I have paid mutiple visits. As usual, you make statements which you cannot back up with hard evidence, then try to worm out of make a snide comment.
To be absolutely honest, I think it is how you interpret things. You misinterpreted the Constitution in another thread. I don't have to be a Constitutional Lawyer to point that out. As for a snide comment, I don't see that in my response to you which I thought was respectful. Perhaps you should take a rest from the forums for a while and regain your composure.
Also, your public doubting of other peoples credibility is insulting to multiple posters as you can see from their responses to you. I stated over and over again this is an informal forum. If you constantly demand to see evidence of everything you ruin the experience for others. Its perfectly fine to say you disagree with someone or had another interpretation. It happens.
Same goes for publicly declaring someone an expert or not an expert. It's an internet forum let the other posters decide for themselves, you do not need to be a referee here and in a lot of cases the person posting was not claiming to be an expert but was only claiming specific knowledge. Again an interpretation issue on your part.
charlie hebdo CMStPnP charlie hebdo Can you show an example of this? It's in the historical literature they hand out to tourists at Riechstag and Bergen Belsen Concentration Camp as well as the Chronological board at Bergen-Belsen and Riechstag (though now that the Riechstag is an active chamber, who knows if it is still there (probably still there but may have moved it)..........should still be on the chronology board at Bergen Belsen. You know where those are geophraphically located, right? Maybe on your next visit. Yes, I do. What you claim is said about the guilt of all Germans is not in evidence in online pamphlets from Bergen-Belsen, at the Reichstag or Dachau or Buchenwald, the latter three of which I have paid mutiple visits. As usual, you make statements which you cannot back up with hard evidence, then try to worm out of make a snide comment.
So says the satirist.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD charlie hebdo CMStPnP charlie hebdo Can you show an example of this? It's in the historical literature they hand out to tourists at Riechstag and Bergen Belsen Concentration Camp as well as the Chronological board at Bergen-Belsen and Riechstag (though now that the Riechstag is an active chamber, who knows if it is still there (probably still there but may have moved it)..........should still be on the chronology board at Bergen Belsen. You know where those are geophraphically located, right? Maybe on your next visit. Yes, I do. What you claim is said about the guilt of all Germans is not in evidence in online pamphlets from Bergen-Belsen, at the Reichstag or Dachau or Buchenwald, the latter three of which I have paid mutiple visits. As usual, you make statements which you cannot back up with hard evidence, then try to worm out of make a snide comment. So says the satirist.
So says the .......
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