BOXCARS

[tree68]

BaltACD

...or 3rd party logistics consolidators. 

This is why I suggested that all the shipper needs to do is offer the can to the railroad at the appropriate facility.  As you say - the railroad isn't going to come looking for it.

[zugmann]

Gramp

There are always reasons why something won't work?  The question to ask is, what can be done to make it work?

Time machine?

[charlie hebdo]

I don't know the answers but these are relevant questions which must be asked. 

1. Domestic shipments of animal hides currently.   Do trucks use dedicated containers or trailers,  back hauling with other loads or empty? 

2. Would the rails back haul with a different commodity? If so,  how expensive is cleaning satisfactorily?  

3. The cost of cleaning or of having dedicated,  one-way containers. Doesn't this change the marginal cost v revenue equation substantially? 

4. Can the rails avoid/prevent the spoilage problems to the cargo mentioned earlier? 

[greyhounds]

zugmann

Sometimes people with many overly optimistic ideas need to be grounded once in a while.  Besides, if the idea is good, it should have no problem facing a few questions.   Sometimes those in the glass towers overlook concerns (or don't even think of them)  that are blatantly obvious to those outside.

I fully agree with that.

 

But…

 

My thought was to put a palatized load in a container and move it to destination.  There’s nothing overly optimistic about that. 

 

I wasn’t facing questions.  I was facing a flat out “NO, it won’t work.”  This “NO” turned out to be based on personal experience from over 50 years ago.  As the man said, things change.  It’s important for everyone, especially railroads, to keep up and be aware of the changes.

 

A question would have been something like: “Hide loads have caused equipment contamination in the past.  How do you propose dealing with that issue?”  What we had instead was “NO, it won’t work.”

 

An unknowledgeable marketing person would just take that “NO.”  It’s not going to make them any friends in the corporate world if they fight the “NO.”  They’ll be labeled a troublemaker.  They’d have to be really motivated to get the freight on the railroad.  Too many of today’s railroad marketing people are unknowledgeable and not that motivated.  After all, they’ll get slapped down for a new idea.  Nobody likes to be slapped down.

 

There was nothing in the proposal other than putting additional revenue loads on an existing train.  Yet it met fierce resistance.  That happens far too often in today’s railroad industry.

 

This certainly didn’t come out of a glass tower.  It’s just more revenue loads on existing train service.  But it got a big “NO.”

[zugmann]

Here's another question:

 

Is lumber currently being shipped in curtain-side trailers on flatcars? 

[greyhounds]

zugmann

Is lumber currently being shipped in curtain-side trailers on flatcars? 

Not that I know of.

That doesn't mean it can't be so shipped.

[zugmann]

greyhounds

That doesn't mean it can't be so shipped.

I'm just curious about tiedowns.  I've seen more than one boxcar of lumber get transloaded due to shifting in transit. 

Esp now with the price of lumber.  I'm sure the lumber dealers are a little more aware/concerned of damages in transportation than they were a year ago.  Murphy Siding? 

[greyhounds]

zugmann

I'm just curious about tiedowns.  I've seen more than one boxcar of lumber get transloaded due to shifting in transit. 

Well, shifted loads happen.

I'd have to get an engineer or two involved to work out the load securement.  I see it as a problem to be solved, not a barrier.

[SD60MAC9500]

Strapping lumber in a tarpside using nylon straps is the norm. From my experience I always put a twist (spiral) in the strap as opposed to leaving it flat. This eliminates any slack that might develop down the road. Shouldn't be a problem in IM service with reduced slack all purpose spine cars.

[BaltACD]

SD60MAC9500

Strapping lumber in a tarpside using nylon straps is the norm. From my experience I always put a twist (spiral) in the strap as opposed to leaving it flat. This eliminates any slack that might develop down the road. Shouldn't be a problem in IM service with reduced slack all purpose spine cars.

Saw a video on YouTube - a 2 inch ratchet strap twisted has the same breaking strength as a flat one.  A twisted strap won't audibly vibrate at speed in the airstream like a flat strap will.

[Murphy Siding]

zugmann

 

 

greyhounds

That doesn't mean it can't be so shipped.

 

 

I'm just curious about tiedowns.  I've seen more than one boxcar of lumber get transloaded due to shifting in transit. 

Esp now with the price of lumber.  I'm sure the lumber dealers are a little more aware/concerned of damages in transportation than they were a year ago.  Murphy Siding? 

 

We get semi-loads of lumber, plywood & OSB in curtain vans. To my knowledge, they don't travel on trains. The units are always tied down with nylon straps and sometimes they shift around. I'd be concerned with loads shifting due to slack action or during loading / unloading on a rail car. Does the equipment that does the loading/ unloading keep the trailer level, or do you run the risk of playing 52 card pick-up with 1050 sheets of OSB?

[greyhounds]

Murphy Siding

We get semi-loads of lumber, plywood & OSB in curtain vans. To my knowledge, they don't travel on trains. The units are always tied down with nylon straps and sometimes they shift around. I'd be concerned with loads shifting due to slack action or during loading / unloading on a rail car. Does the equipment that does the loading/ unloading keep the trailer level, or do you run the risk of playing 52 card pick-up with 1050 sheets of OSB? Add Quote to your Post

OK, after you’ve done all possible analysis, all possible computer simulations, dealt with all the “NO, it won’t work” from the operating folks, and had the engineers design a load restraint system, it would be time for a test.  Do not make a major commitment to this concept without test marketing the concept.  That’s a quite common business practice, except in railroading.

 

You’ll only need five curtain side containers and one five platform spine car.

 

Get one lumber source and preferably five different lumber receivers to try it.  As an incentive tell them “This load is on us.”  And make that so.

 

Fly, in one of your corporate jets (They’ll like that.), representatives of the five receivers, the marketing person on the hook for even thinking of such a fool idea, the engineer(s) who designed the load restrain system, and the operating person who was the loudest “NO” to the origin.  Show them a good time.  Take them fly fishing, to a round of golf, whatever.

 

On an appointed day, with all concerned in attendance, have an existing local spot the spine car, with the containers on board, at the shipper.  Everyone concerned should watch the lumber being loaded and secured to the containers while they are on the spine car. Secure the curtains in their proper position.

 

On the following day have the local pick up the spine car.  Move it to where you can put it on an IM train and then move it to the intermodal terminal nearest to the receivers’ locations.  

 

Use your business cars.  All concerned should be in a business car adjacent to, or near, the lumber loads.  Have the engineer(s) check the loads whenever possible.

 

Deliver the loads and seek honest feedback from the shipper and receivers.  Adjust as necessary and possible.  Repeat with different shippers and receivers.

 

You’ll develop a good workable system that will put additional revenue loads on existing trains.  That’s money on the bottom line.

 

Or, it's an "Oh Well".  We'll try the next thing.  But you can't win unless you try.

 

 

[jeffhergert]

Hides have been shipped in containers (refrigerated, ocean boxes) before.  No reason there couldn't be domestic moves.

Lumber moves in containers.  I don't remember if it was domestic or export.

The problem isn't with equipment.  It's that railroads don't go out of their way to find freight to haul, intermodal or car load.  Uncle Pete a while back was crowing about their new marketing department and how they were now focusing on growth.  They were getting loads, mostly intermodal, but it was really more of the low hanging fruit they want.  The stuff that's easy, doesn't cost much to handle.

As long has they worry more about what the cost of handling any potential business is and how it affects the OR instead of how much cash they could be putting in their pockets, they'll leave most freight to others.

Jeff       

[BaltACD]

jeffhergert

Hides have been shipped in containers (refrigerated, ocean boxes) before.  No reason there couldn't be domestic moves.

Lumber moves in containers.  I don't remember if it was domestic or export.

The problem isn't with equipment.  It's that railroads don't go out of their way to find freight to haul, intermodal or car load.  Uncle Pete a while back was crowing about their new marketing department and how they were now focusing on growth.  They were getting loads, mostly intermodal, but it was really more of the low hanging fruit they want.  The stuff that's easy, doesn't cost much to handle.

As long has they worry more about what the cost of handling any potential business is and how it affects the OR instead of how much cash they could be putting in their pockets, they'll leave most freight to others.

Jeff       

PSR's effect has been to eviserate the concept of Marketing in railroads trying to attract business.  The only business desired is that which walks up to the door, fully formed, that does not increase any of the cost metrics within the business.

That will remain until some other 'plan' strikes Wall Street's fancy for operating the industry. 

[Murphy Siding]

greyhounds

 

Murphy Siding

We get semi-loads of lumber, plywood & OSB in curtain vans. To my knowledge, they don't travel on trains. The units are always tied down with nylon straps and sometimes they shift around. I'd be concerned with loads shifting due to slack action or during loading / unloading on a rail car. Does the equipment that does the loading/ unloading keep the trailer level, or do you run the risk of playing 52 card pick-up with 1050 sheets of OSB? Add Quote to your Post

 

 

OK, after you’ve done all possible analysis, all possible computer simulations, dealt with all the “NO, it won’t work” from the operating folks, and had the engineers design a load restraint system, it would be time for a test.  Do not make a major commitment to this concept without test marketing the concept.  That’s a quite common business practice, except in railroading.

 

You’ll only need five curtain side containers and one five platform spine car.

 

Get one lumber source and preferably five different lumber receivers to try it.  As an incentive tell them “This load is on us.”  And make that so.

 

Fly, in one of your corporate jets (They’ll like that.), representatives of the five receivers, the marketing person on the hook for even thinking of such a fool idea, the engineer(s) who designed the load restrain system, and the operating person who was the loudest “NO” to the origin.  Show them a good time.  Take them fly fishing, to a round of golf, whatever.

 

On an appointed day, with all concerned in attendance, have an existing local spot the spine car, with the containers on board, at the shipper.  Everyone concerned should watch the lumber being loaded and secured to the containers while they are on the spine car. Secure the curtains in their proper position.

 

On the following day have the local pick up the spine car.  Move it to where you can put it on an IM train and then move it to the intermodal terminal nearest to the receivers’ locations.  

 

Use your business cars.  All concerned should be in a business car adjacent to, or near, the lumber loads.  Have the engineer(s) check the loads whenever possible.

 

Deliver the loads and seek honest feedback from the shipper and receivers.  Adjust as necessary and possible.  Repeat with different shippers and receivers.

 

You’ll develop a good workable system that will put additional revenue loads on existing trains.  That’s money on the bottom line.

 

Or, it's an "Oh Well".  We'll try the next thing.  But you can't win unless you try.

 

 

 

Sorry, but you lost me. Wine and dine and promise the world probably got you somewhere 40 years ago. Shock and awe doesn't work anymore. Maybe it never did.

      The way I see it, you would develop a plan. Tell people what you can do for them. Sell them on the idea. Then deliver what you  promised and expand the program. Corporate jets, golfing, fishing, booze, and steaks...whatever. Rodney Dangerfield said his parents used to tie a porkchop around his neck just so the dog would play with him. I see parallels.

[Backshop]

I'm still trying to figure out how (and why), a thread about boxcars has turned into one about stinky hides in trailers or containers.  

[SD60MAC9500]

 

Murphy Siding

 

 

greyhounds

 

Murphy Siding

We get semi-loads of lumber, plywood & OSB in curtain vans. To my knowledge, they don't travel on trains. The units are always tied down with nylon straps and sometimes they shift around. I'd be concerned with loads shifting due to slack action or during loading / unloading on a rail car. Does the equipment that does the loading/ unloading keep the trailer level, or do you run the risk of playing 52 card pick-up with 1050 sheets of OSB? Add Quote to your Post

 

 

OK, after you’ve done all possible analysis, all possible computer simulations, dealt with all the “NO, it won’t work” from the operating folks, and had the engineers design a load restraint system, it would be time for a test.  Do not make a major commitment to this concept without test marketing the concept.  That’s a quite common business practice, except in railroading.

 

You’ll only need five curtain side containers and one five platform spine car.

 

Get one lumber source and preferably five different lumber receivers to try it.  As an incentive tell them “This load is on us.”  And make that so.

 

Fly, in one of your corporate jets (They’ll like that.), representatives of the five receivers, the marketing person on the hook for even thinking of such a fool idea, the engineer(s) who designed the load restrain system, and the operating person who was the loudest “NO” to the origin.  Show them a good time.  Take them fly fishing, to a round of golf, whatever.

 

On an appointed day, with all concerned in attendance, have an existing local spot the spine car, with the containers on board, at the shipper.  Everyone concerned should watch the lumber being loaded and secured to the containers while they are on the spine car. Secure the curtains in their proper position.

 

On the following day have the local pick up the spine car.  Move it to where you can put it on an IM train and then move it to the intermodal terminal nearest to the receivers’ locations.  

 

Use your business cars.  All concerned should be in a business car adjacent to, or near, the lumber loads.  Have the engineer(s) check the loads whenever possible.

 

Deliver the loads and seek honest feedback from the shipper and receivers.  Adjust as necessary and possible.  Repeat with different shippers and receivers.

 

You’ll develop a good workable system that will put additional revenue loads on existing trains.  That’s money on the bottom line.

 

Or, it's an "Oh Well".  We'll try the next thing.  But you can't win unless you try.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, but you lost me. Wine and dine and promise the world probably got you somewhere 40 years ago. Shock and awe doesn't work anymore. Maybe it never did.

      The way I see it, you would develop a plan. Tell people what you can do for them. Sell them on the idea. Then deliver what you  promised and expand the program. Corporate jets, golfing, fishing, booze, and steaks...whatever. Rodney Dangerfield said his parents used to tie a porkchop around his neck just so the dog would play with him. I see parallels.

 

 

I'll agree with Murphy on this one. Railroads would be best to give a trial period. You know something similiar too try us for 30 days before commiting. If you have a service product give them a trial period. Show up to the potential customer lay out your service product plan (SPP we'll call it) to entice the potential customer into becoming a long term customer. The SPP will include all pre contractual agreements, and contract agreements upon signing authorization of a long term contract. Give them free switches for a period of time along with free demurrage charges. Show the customer you can provide consistency.

 

[tree68]

Backshop

I'm still trying to figure out how (and why), a thread about boxcars has turned into one about stinky hides in trailers or containers.  

Threads morph.  At least in this case, at least we're still talking about things that can be carried by trains - and recall that the hides started out in boxcars in this discussion.

[charlie hebdo]

jeffhergert

Hides have been shipped in containers (refrigerated, ocean boxes) before.  No reason there couldn't be domestic moves.

That partially answered my question.  The remaining portion is "Can that container be cleaned sufficiently to transport other sensitive freight and how costly is that?"  Ken seems to dismiss details such as cost in his zeal to grab new freight customers. 

[greyhounds]

Murphy Siding

Sorry, but you lost me. Wine and dine and promise the world probably got you somewhere 40 years ago. Shock and awe doesn't work anymore. Maybe it never did.       The way I see it, you would develop a plan. Tell people what you can do for them. Sell them on the idea. Then deliver what you  promised and expand the program. Corporate jets, golfing, fishing, booze, and steaks...whatever. Rodney Dangerfield said his parents used to tie a porkchop around his neck just so the dog would play with him. I see parallels.

OK, you're right.  But it would have been fun.

Edit to add:  "Lumber futures for May delivery ended Friday at $1,500.50 per thousand board feet, an all-time high and roughly four times the typical price this time of year. Futures have risen by the daily maximum allowed by the Chicago Mercantile Exchange during nine of the last 17 trading sessions."

From today's Wall Street Journal.  

If the demand for lumber is off the chart, so is the demand for transportation vehicles to move the lumber.

[greyhounds]

Backshop

I'm still trying to figure out how (and why), a thread about boxcars has turned into one about stinky hides in trailers or containers.  

Boxcars, intermodal containers, and over the road trailers are simply different tools for doing the same thing.  They add time and place utility to a product.  They get it to where it's needed when it's needed.  They are interchangeable.  

The market will select the most efficient such tool for a particular instance.

The hides came in when it came into question what the containers could move out of the Sioux Falls area.

 

[rdamon]

This looks like a interesting tool to load lumber.

 

[Murphy Siding]

rdamon

This looks like a interesting tool to load lumber.

 

 

Not to be a sayser, but... That looks like an interesting contraption. It appears that the lumber is being loaded in Finnland perhaps? I can't figure out what kind of magic keeps the unloading spatula from snapping the nylon banding on the bottom.

[Gramp]

The rollers?

[cv_acr]

Another system of quickly loading containers with lumber.

Loading curtain-side/flat-rack containers that never come off spine cars would not work as well. You'd have to strap down and stabilize the load since there's no structure provided by the walls.

The whole reason center-beam flatcars exist is to provide the stabilizing structure with the central truss (otherwise other pieces of wood dunnage need to be used as stabilizers) and winches that are part of the car strap the bundles down instead of having to use a whole bunch of strapping to unitize the load.

Flat-rack/curtain side containers is a huge step backwards... I mean, lumber is loaded onto regular flat-bed trucks for local distribution, and accordingly strapped down etc. but loading directly onto spine cars instead of centerbeams just reduces the volume of wood you're shipping per railcar unit.

And you want to transport nasty, smelly hides in essentially open containers? No one is going to want that travelling anywhere near them.

[BaltACD]

cv_acr

Another system of quickly loading containers with lumber.

Loading curtain-side/flat-rack containers that never come off spine cars would not work as well. You'd have to strap down and stabilize the load since there's no structure provided by the walls.

The whole reason center-beam flatcars exist is to provide the stabilizing structure with the central truss (otherwise other pieces of wood dunnage need to be used as stabilizers) and winches that are part of the car strap the bundles down instead of having to use a whole bunch of strapping to unitize the load.

Flat-rack/curtain side containers is a huge step backwards... I mean, lumber is loaded onto regular flat-bed trucks for local distribution, and accordingly strapped down etc. but loading directly onto spine cars instead of centerbeams just reduces the volume of wood you're shipping per railcar unit.

And you want to transport nasty, smelly hides in essentially open containers? No one is going to want that travelling anywhere near them.

Is there a C-Unloader?  Shoving stuff into a box is the easy part of the equation.  Murphy's end ?????

[greyhounds]

cv_acr

Loading curtain-side/flat-rack containers that never come off spine cars would not work as well. You'd have to strap down and stabilize the load since there's no structure provided by the walls. The whole reason center-beam flatcars exist is to provide the stabilizing structure with the central truss (otherwise other pieces of wood dunnage need to be used as stabilizers) and winches that are part of the car strap the bundles down instead of having to use a whole bunch of strapping to unitize the load. Flat-rack/curtain side containers is a huge step backwards...

He goes on.

Please go back and read through the entire thread.  Your comments and concerns have been addressed.  I don’t feel like going back to square one.

But, of particular note:

 

1)      The “Nasty, smelly hides” are not, in fact, “Nasty, smelly hides.”  They’re “Wet Blues” which are shipped shrink wrapped and palatalized.  They are no special problem to transport.

 

2)      The thread started when a lumber receiver expressed concern about there being enough boxcars to move the lumber.  There is a current spike in the demand for lumber.  The sawmills cannot produce to the increased demand.  This has driven the price of lumber way high.

 

As the demand for lumber has spiked, so has the demand for vehicles, truck or rail, to move the lumber.

 

3)      It’s not financially wise to buy a long-term asset, such as a boxcar or center beam, to meet a short-term demand spike.  Nobody knows how long the increased demand will continue.

 

4)      Lumber is shipped long distances by over the road trucking.  Yes, they have to tie it down.  The truckers seem to deal with that OK.

 

5)      Center beam rail cars are fine if the receiver desires to get 90+ tons of lumber at one time.  It’s often better for them to order in smaller quantities that are now moved by over the road trucking.  These smaller lots improve their cash flow and reduce their inventory carrying costs.  It all depends on how fast they can sell how much lumber.  Curtain side containers would facilitate moving these smaller lots by rail.  

 

6)      Center beams go back to the sawmill empty.  Curtain side containers can carry a return load.

 

7)      Curtain sides can be repurposed when the lumber demand spike ends.  Center beam cars would go into storage and create red ink.

 

 

 

 

 

[Backshop]

BaltACD

Is there a C-Unloader?  Shoving stuff into a box is the easy part of the equation.  Murphy's end ?????

That's the 800lb gorilla in the room.

[zugmann]

Step 1: back up to the dock really, really, really fast...

[SD60MAC9500]

 

cv_acr

Another system of quickly loading containers with lumber.

Loading curtain-side/flat-rack containers that never come off spine cars would not work as well. You'd have to strap down and stabilize the load since there's no structure provided by the walls.

The whole reason center-beam flatcars exist is to provide the stabilizing structure with the central truss (otherwise other pieces of wood dunnage need to be used as stabilizers) and winches that are part of the car strap the bundles down instead of having to use a whole bunch of strapping to unitize the load.

Flat-rack/curtain side containers is a huge step backwards... I mean, lumber is loaded onto regular flat-bed trucks for local distribution, and accordingly strapped down etc. but loading directly onto spine cars instead of centerbeams just reduces the volume of wood you're shipping per railcar unit.

And you want to transport nasty, smelly hides in essentially open containers? No one is going to want that travelling anywhere near them.

 

Far from quick.. Shipping forest products in a domestic tarpside container would be a step forward. In addition it wouldn't need expensive contraptions like that to load the containers.. Just use the exsiting forklifts without any modification or fancy tools. At 6:25 in the video who doesn't clean snow off product before it's loaded? ..

Looking at the video you posted these appear to be export loads going to or at the Port of Prince Rupert.