SD60MAC9500 Here's our answers to shipping hides
Here's our answers to shipping hides
"Heating may occur if insufficient ventilation is provided. Loaded containers should not be exposed to direct sunlight or heat as this will lead to heating and heavy damage."
The article refers to containers in ships. COFC in shade?
I can see where something like this might work in my neck of the woods. What other traffic besides dead animal parts are there in the area that could be used as freight out?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
charlie hebdo SD60MAC9500 Here's our answers to shipping hides "Heating may occur if insufficient ventilation is provided. Loaded containers should not be exposed to direct sunlight or heat as this will lead to heating and heavy damage." The article refers to containers in ships. COFC in shade?
Our tarpside container will have venting drawing cooler air inside and pushing warm air out. The container will be a flatrack design with a composite or wood floor. In practice a tarpside would have cooler temps to transport hides than a all steel box.
The question remains - How much revenue can be derived from hides versus how much it costs to be in the business.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Since we have a boxcar thread, I figured I'd ask in here rather than make a dedicated thread. I've been wondering lately why the Railbox reporting mark (RBOX) seems to be disappearing in favor of TBOX and FBOX (And I think I've seen at least one other variant). What do the different marks signify?
Murphy SidingI can see where something like this might work in my neck of the woods. What other traffic besides dead animal parts are there in the area that could be used as freight out?
BaltACDThe question remains - How much revenue can be derived from hides versus how much it costs to be in the business.
I've answered that question. Do you understand "Marginal Costs?"
greyhounds BaltACD The question remains - How much revenue can be derived from hides versus how much it costs to be in the business. I've answered that question. Do you understand "Marginal Costs?"
BaltACD The question remains - How much revenue can be derived from hides versus how much it costs to be in the business.
Do you understand loss?
BaltACDDo you understand loss?
Yes, but apparently you don't. Did you ever take and pass an accounting or economics course?
I hate to be this blunt, but you just don't understand this stuff.
BackshopYou never answered my question---does the receiver of the hides have rail access and how far away are they?
We're talking about intermodal containers, so rail access doesn't matter one bit.
There are various potential receivers so I can't give you an answer on distance. But, "How far away from what?"
Leo_Ames Since we have a boxcar thread, I figured I'd ask in here rather than make a dedicated thread. I've been wondering lately why the Railbox reporting mark (RBOX) seems to be disappearing in favor of TBOX and FBOX (And I think I've seen at least one other variant). What do the different marks signify?
My speculation based on about a decade of switching them.
RBOX = 50' standard height. Single door, usually sliding.
TBOX = 60' to 65' hi cube. Dual plug doors.
FBOX = 50' hi cube. Single plug door.
Is the other variation TOBX? These cars seem to have been acquired secondhand from other owners, as they seem to have been recently relettered. All the ones I've seen meet the same specs as the TBOX cars.
The larger cars with plug doors have become the new standard boxcar size, so the RBOX cars are disappearing as age catches up with them.
The GONX mark (RailGons) was still being applied to new cars as of a few years ago.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70DudeIs the other variation TOBX? These cars seem to have been acquired secondhand from other owners, as they seem to have been recently relettered. All the ones I've seen meet the same specs as the TBOX cars.
ABOX. Those have a sliding door plus a smaller plug door.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Back to the original question, sidestepping the "smelly hides".
Fred M CainDoes anybody know if North American railroads – or anybody really – plans to buy more boxcars?
Greenbrier has two boxcars available for order:
https://www.gbrx.com/manufacturing/north-america-rail/boxcars/
And in Greenbrier's 2021 Q1 earnings report, the CEO said “…we see strength in boxcars, probably including insulated boxcar.”
And the COO said "...I would say, here in North America, we've had a nice mix of order types, car types and order in the first quarter. I'd say there was probably a fairly more sizable chunk of boxcars, and some tank cars..."
Now, I've never been one to trust earnings calls, but that is what they said.
Sean
HO Scale CSX Modeler
greyhounds OK, let’s try to clean this up. First, hides can be moved in containers without destroying the ability of those containers to handle other freight. Please view this YouTube of an interview with the head of the Tyson Hides and Tannery Division. Note that he’s talking about supplying “Wet Blues.” (Tyson hides out of Dakota City, NE were what we were talking about. Tyson now has the capacity to process 6,000 head of cattle per workday at Dakota City.) Tyson Foods: The tanning industry will continue to consolidate - YouTube Now please view this document provided by Zugmann. https://www.gard.no/Content/24352680/CINS_GuidelinesHidesSkins.pdf Note paragraphs 1.3 and 3.2. “Wet Blues” are the hide type Tyson sells and ships. They require no special container preparation. They’re like any other palatized load. They’re not a special problem. Some people posting here are stuck in the past. Things do change. A special “Good Lord” to Charlie Hebdo for his comments about shipping hides in the shade. The hides are produced and shipped today without being in the shade. This freight moves long distances, and it should move on the railroads. It’s not the rail technology that’s failing. It’s these antiquated concepts held by people living in the past that drive freight off the trains. This should have been a simple "Get the Freight and Revenue" situation. Instead it turned in to a fight over an obsolete belief.
Perhaps if you actually had read my post, you would see it was a quotation from the article which was dealing at length with technical aspects of shipping various animal hides in containers. Instead you engage in snippy attacks on anyone on this thread with the temerity to raise questions and do little more than sloganeering.
greyhounds BaltACD Do you understand loss? Yes, but apparently you don't. Did you ever take and pass an accounting or economics course? I hate to be this blunt, but you just don't understand this stuff.
BaltACD Do you understand loss?
You don't really address the questions at hand about the costs. Instead you attack BALT's credentials. Why do you assume he never studied those subjects or more importantly, never used them in his career? In your transportation masters program, we can assume you had some coursework in those departments. How far really?
Others on here had some (like me, two undergrad econ and two accountancy classes at UI) and others with many, like our resident accountant, JPS.
It's sometimes easy to tell when someone retires and feels the need to remain relevant...
charlie hebdo greyhounds BaltACD Do you understand loss? Yes, but apparently you don't. Did you ever take and pass an accounting or economics course? I hate to be this blunt, but you just don't understand this stuff. You don't really address the questions at hand about the costs. Instead you attack BALT's credentials. Why do you assume he never studied those subjects or more importantly, never used them in his career? In your transportation masters program, we can assume you had some coursework in those departments. How far really? Others on here had some (like me, two undergrad econ and two accountancy classes at UI) and others with many, like our resident accountant, JPS.
I have had a number of Economics and Accounting courses at a variety of institutions of higher learning culminating in a Bachelors of Business Administration degree with specialization in marketing and transportation management. I also understand reality.
BaltACDI also understand reality.
That's really the core of it. Back in the day of entrepreneurial ownership, you might have gotten someone excited with the marginal-cost presentation, punctuated by the opportunity to "stick it to the truckers".
Stockholders and institutional investors are not swayed by emotion. They are going to say "what do you mean that this new business cannot pay it's proportionate share of real costs, yet still you feel it worth going after?"
BaltACD charlie hebdo greyhounds BaltACD Do you understand loss? Yes, but apparently you don't. Did you ever take and pass an accounting or economics course? I hate to be this blunt, but you just don't understand this stuff. You don't really address the questions at hand about the costs. Instead you attack BALT's credentials. Why do you assume he never studied those subjects or more importantly, never used them in his career? In your transportation masters program, we can assume you had some coursework in those departments. How far really? Others on here had some (like me, two undergrad econ and two accountancy classes at UI) and others with many, like our resident accountant, JPS. I have had a number of Economics and Accounting courses at a variety of institutions of higher learning culminating in a Bachelors of Business Administration degree with specialization in marketing and transportation management. I also understand reality.
Exactly. Likely some others had formal study and/or real world experience. He is not the only member who understands the concept of marginal revenue but doesn't make it the be all, end all.
BaltACD have had a number of Economics and Accounting courses at a variety of institutions of higher learning culminating in a Bachelors of Business Administration degree with specialization in marketing and transportation management. I also understand reality.
1) Do we now have agreement that hides, particularly “Wet Blues”, can be hauled in containers without destroying the containers’ usefulness to move other products?
2) Why are you so adamantly opposed to hauling this freight by rail?
3) Do you agree that it is impossible to determine the cost of moving any one load by rail because so many rail costs are “Joint” and can only be applied to any one load by arbitrary allocation?
4) Do you agree that because of the joint cost issue how much a railroad “Makes” on any one load is impossible to determine?
5) Do you agree that it is the marginal revenue vs marginal cost (as can be known) difference that determines whether the railroad should seek the additional loads?
6) Do you agree that the value of the commodity has little or nothing to do with establishing freight rates?
7) Do you have any evidence to show that a railroad doesn’t have a cost advantage over trucking at 800 miles or so? (I'll contend it's a lot less than 800 miles.)
charlie hebdoYou don't really address the questions at hand about the costs. Instead you attack BALT's credentials. Why do you assume he never studied those subjects or more importantly, never used them in his career? In your transportation masters program, we can assume you had some coursework in those departments. How far really? Others on here had some (like me, two undergrad econ and two accountancy classes at UI) and others with many, like our resident accountant, JPS.
I've decided to answer this.
First, I deny attacking Balt's credentials. I ask. I wanted to know if he understood marginal costs/revenue.
Second, I did answer his question as best I could. I provided a SWAG about the revenue which I SWAGED at $2.59 per competing highway mile. I also explained the impossibility of accurately determining "The Cost" of any individual rail shipment. This impossibility makes it further impossible to determine how much a railroad "Makes" on any particular shipment.
The railroads can haul hides without ruining their equipment. Just like the truckers. The freight charges on hides should be at, or near, the same as other intermodal freight. What's the problem?
Balt adamantly fought the hide traffic concept. I see this as all too typical of railroad people who just fight business development and growth. For no discernible reason.
greyhounds charlie hebdo You don't really address the questions at hand about the costs. Instead you attack BALT's credentials. Why do you assume he never studied those subjects or more importantly, never used them in his career? In your transportation masters program, we can assume you had some coursework in those departments. How far really? Others on here had some (like me, two undergrad econ and two accountancy classes at UI) and others with many, like our resident accountant, JPS. I've decided to answer this. First, I deny attacking Balt's credentials. I ask. I wanted to know if he understood marginal costs/revenue. Second, I did answer his question as best I could. I provided a SWAG about the revenue which I SWAGED at $2.59 per competing highway mile. I also explained the impossibility of accurately determining "The Cost" of any individual rail shipment. This impossibility makes it further impossible to determine how much a railroad "Makes" on any particular shipment. The railroads can haul hides without ruining their equipment. Just like the truckers. The freight charges on hides should be at, or near, the same as other intermodal freight. What's the problem? Balt adamantly fought the hide traffic concept. I see this as all too typical of railroad people who just fight business development and growth. For no discernible reason.
charlie hebdo You don't really address the questions at hand about the costs. Instead you attack BALT's credentials. Why do you assume he never studied those subjects or more importantly, never used them in his career? In your transportation masters program, we can assume you had some coursework in those departments. How far really? Others on here had some (like me, two undergrad econ and two accountancy classes at UI) and others with many, like our resident accountant, JPS.
The hides and cars that hauled them that I PERSONALLY witnessed in the late 1960's ruined the cars and the olfactory senses of people they passed. The hides were not 'shrink wrapped' in plastic as that form of packaging had yet to be developed. As I stated, in the pre-EPA World, smell and enviornmental destruction was just the normal way of doing business.
Thankfully times have changed.
greyhoundsI see this as all too typical of railroad people who just fight business development and growth. For no discernible reason.
Sometimes people with many overly optimistic ideas need to be grounded once in a while. Besides, if the idea is good, it should have no problem facing a few questions. Sometimes those in the glass towers overlook concerns (or don't even think of them) that are blatantly obvious to those outside.*
* I mean, if we're going to turn this into broad generalizations.
If the trailers aren't properly cleaned, how many times is a shipper going to reject them before they get ticked off and just hire their own trucks? Then you're left with stinky trailers with no backhauls.
If it's a given that someone is determined to ship hides via modular container, I can see no good reason why a railroad should not go after the transportation aspect. Let the customer wrangle out the details on the container.
There are always reasons why something won't work? The question to ask is, what can be done to make it work?
Convicted One If it's a given that someone is determined to ship hides via modular container, I can see no good reason why a railroad should not go after the transportation aspect. Let the customer wrangle out the details on the container.
I would opine that the railroad is actually a small part of this - someone has to obtain a suitable container, load it, and present it to the railroad for transport to the desired destination, where someone has to receive it, take it where they want to unload it, and deal with the results.
In that respect, it's no different from any other commodity. Heck, you could do that with your household goods if you were moving a great distance. All you need is a broker to make the necessary arrangements.
The one variable of any consequence is how long this will take vs what would be acceptable for the commodity at hand.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 Convicted One If it's a given that someone is determined to ship hides via modular container, I can see no good reason why a railroad should not go after the transportation aspect. Let the customer wrangle out the details on the container. I would opine that the railroad is actually a small part of this - someone has to obtain a suitable container, load it, and present it to the railroad for transport to the desired destination, where someone has to receive it, take it where they want to unload it, and deal with the results. In that respect, it's no different from any other commodity. Heck, you could do that with your household goods if you were moving a great distance. All you need is a broker to make the necessary arrangements. The one variable of any consequence is how long this will take vs what would be acceptable for the commodity at hand.
With PSR's skletonizing of RR Marketing organizations in the name of OR - you won't see railroads seeking hides or any other kind of trailer/container business. Whatever they get will be from ocean carriers or 3rd party logistics consolidators.
Railroad thinking in PSR is 'Give us the box, we will haul it', what happens on either end is up to the Shipper/Consignee and whatever drayage they contract.
Well, what I was thinking ....if there already are 20(+/-) containers of hides per month headed from the central US to Asia via the port of LA, there is no reason why the railroads shouldn't relish snagging the domestic leg of that transport. You're not going to beat the trucks on speed, so that pretty much governs your sales pitch.
It's never going to be a huge segment, so as we used to say of such limited potential that it's only worth reaching so far for. We also used to say there is little point competing with a fool, you'll chase him into the poor house trying to snag his business.
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