Also consider the boxcars that were classified XF for food service. It didn't take too much to contaminate them and it would then require a major cleaning to maintain the classification.
Assuming the container or trailer can be satisfactorily cleaned, how difficult is this and how much does it cost?
I'm honestly asking, perhaps Shadow's Owner could weigh in here.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
BaltACD The composition of the vehicle is not material - wood, metal, composite materials - smell attaches to each material.
The composition of the vehicle is not material - wood, metal, composite materials - smell attaches to each material.
SD60MAC9500 BaltACD The composition of the vehicle is not material - wood, metal, composite materials - smell attaches to each material. If it's a wood floor trailer that will make a difference as the fiberous nature of wood holds oils and liquids longer than metal, and composite floors letting any stench linger. I've never cared for wood floor trailers for that reason. Due to my experience with them when it comes to spills, leaks, etc.. Those may or may not come out and can ruin a good floor.
Wood is the most retentive of smells and other kinds of things. However, all materials are retentive of smells to varying degrees.
Remember humans have among the least sensitive of noses among all mammals.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDWood is the most retentive of smells and other kinds of things. However, all materials are retentive of smells to varying degrees.
And here we are. There is no possible solution? The hides must continue to move by highway transport. Of course the truckers don't want to go back empty. If they were to do so the railroad could also send the equipment back empty and be more than competitive on price. I tell you, those truckers are magic.
I'll agree that the cat's owner can provide better information on clean out prices, but I'd budget $75/load for the clean out.
greyhounds BaltACD Wood is the most retentive of smells and other kinds of things. However, all materials are retentive of smells to varying degrees. And here we are. There is no possible solution? The hides must continue to move by highway transport. Of course the truckers don't want to go back empty. If they were to do so the railroad could also send the equipment back empty and be more than competitive on price. I tell you, those truckers are magic. I'll agree that the cat's owner can provide better information on clean out prices, but I'd budget $75/load for the clean out.
BaltACD Wood is the most retentive of smells and other kinds of things. However, all materials are retentive of smells to varying degrees.
How much revenue will you get from hides? How much will it cost to get the revenue? It is a simple equation.
Hides, to my knowledge are not a high value commodity and thus will not bring in a high amount of revenue per unit shipped. Anything that has to be done to the equipment hauling hides to facilitate the vehicles being used for another commodity detracts from the revenue of the hides.
I believe the hides that the B&O hauled from Herr's Island in Pittsburgh to unknown to me destinations were in assigned service and where returned to Herr's Island for more loads of hides. I could smell the cars as the passed FY Tower and Etna Towers on the B&O's P&W Sub both loaded and empty.
Another question...does the receiver of the hides have rail service? If not, that's another transload for a low revenue item.
When I worked for IBP at Perry Iowa, the day shift did nothing but export hogs for Japan. They even had the hides sent to Japan in refrigerated containers.
Jeff
The sidetrack about smelly cowhides aside, I could see a future in something like this. It might not be that the railroads have to go so low as it is that the trucking rates are going to keep going up. My father was an OTR trucker. It's not a glamorous job and it doesn't pay all that well for what you have to give it. I know a trucker lady will come on here and say that all their drivers make a million bucks a year and are happy as clams. I know better.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
jeffhergertWhen I worked for IBP at Perry Iowa, the day shift did nothing but export hogs for Japan. They even had the hides sent to Japan in refrigerated containers. Jeff
I guess the hides came back to the USA as footballs for the NFL, NCAA and all the High Schools. [/sarcasm]
BaltACDHow much revenue will you get from hides? How much will it cost to get the revenue? It is a simple equation.
Well, here we go again. The truckers can haul this freight but the railroad can’t? And that’s that! A (former) railroad operating person is fighting against bringing new loads and revenue to the railroad. There’s nothing to be done. Can’t do a thing. Just give up and let the truckers have the business.
It is in no way “A simple equation.” Railroad cost accounting is a can of worms. Too many cost elements are but arbitrary allocations of joint costs. No one in the world can really determine “The Cost” of moving a rail load of hides or anything else. The car hire cost is specific to the hide load. It’s one of the cost elements that can be determined. But the crew cost? The maintenance of way cost? The dispatching cost? Etc. They’re joint and cannot be assigned accurately to any specific revenue load.
People can create an average cost. But if average costs are used they’ll produce the wrong answer every time. It’s the marginal revenue vs. marginal cost relationship that counts.
BaltACDHides, to my knowledge are not a high value commodity and thus will not bring in a high amount of revenue per unit shipped. Anything that has to be done to the equipment hauling hides to facilitate the vehicles being used for another commodity detracts from the revenue of the hides.
Convicted One I recall several years ago there was a story in Trains magazine stating that once a boxcar hauls hides, thereafter it is unfit for anything else. Stretching memory thin, but I think I recall it was one of the Al Perlman stories, where he couldn't believe that some subordinate was not aware of that aspect.
I recall several years ago there was a story in Trains magazine stating that once a boxcar hauls hides, thereafter it is unfit for anything else.
Stretching memory thin, but I think I recall it was one of the Al Perlman stories, where he couldn't believe that some subordinate was not aware of that aspect.
I remember that article. As I recall, the subordinate had a solution in mind - wrapping the hides in plastic. I pictured it as the kind of plastic wrap that is used to secure small boxes stacked on pallets, but that was just my guess.
cv_acr Domestic containers are 53 ft l x 8' 6" w x 9'6" h exterior measure - basically the same dimensions as a highway trailer. Lumber, plywood, MDF, and gypsum wallboard will weigh out before cubing out in a container. The weight you can load is a function of the lowest allowable highway weight at origin and destination, and the chassis and tractor characteristics. Say roughly 48,000 # in the US, much higher in Canada with a tridem chassis - in the order of 80,000 #. I think the main shift in the boxcar markets has been the one away from a host of specialized car configurations, to a few "standard" types - 50 Ft Plate F single door for rolled paper, and 60 Ft Plate F double door for just about everything else - both 286k MWOR of course. I think TTX, lessors, and the big forest products roads, notably CN, will be acquiring these car types, especially the double doors, for some time. The ones falling out the bottom will be the odds and sods, Plate C's and E's, &tc. Fred M Cain The issue here is that some products are too heavy to be shipped in a container. OSB, plywood and wall panels are HEAVY. Some boxcars can handle 100 tons while containers cannot handle anywhere near that amount of weight. How much weight can you load in a container? 20 tons? 30 tons? Maybe 40 tons? Does anybody know for sure? Containers are also relatively tiny, being 40' by 8' by 8-9' feet, when boxcars are 50' or 60' long, 10' wide and 12-13' tall inside for "high cube" cars. Even if you did "cube out" the container before overloading it weight-wise it's a bare fraction of what can be shipped by boxcar. PLENTY of things are still shipped by boxcar, and as pointed out above, brand new boxcars are still being actively constructed in 2021.
Domestic containers are 53 ft l x 8' 6" w x 9'6" h exterior measure - basically the same dimensions as a highway trailer. Lumber, plywood, MDF, and gypsum wallboard will weigh out before cubing out in a container. The weight you can load is a function of the lowest allowable highway weight at origin and destination, and the chassis and tractor characteristics. Say roughly 48,000 # in the US, much higher in Canada with a tridem chassis - in the order of 80,000 #.
I think the main shift in the boxcar markets has been the one away from a host of specialized car configurations, to a few "standard" types - 50 Ft Plate F single door for rolled paper, and 60 Ft Plate F double door for just about everything else - both 286k MWOR of course. I think TTX, lessors, and the big forest products roads, notably CN, will be acquiring these car types, especially the double doors, for some time. The ones falling out the bottom will be the odds and sods, Plate C's and E's, &tc.
Fred M Cain The issue here is that some products are too heavy to be shipped in a container. OSB, plywood and wall panels are HEAVY. Some boxcars can handle 100 tons while containers cannot handle anywhere near that amount of weight. How much weight can you load in a container? 20 tons? 30 tons? Maybe 40 tons? Does anybody know for sure?
The issue here is that some products are too heavy to be shipped in a container. OSB, plywood and wall panels are HEAVY. Some boxcars can handle 100 tons while containers cannot handle anywhere near that amount of weight. How much weight can you load in a container? 20 tons? 30 tons? Maybe 40 tons? Does anybody know for sure?
Containers are also relatively tiny, being 40' by 8' by 8-9' feet, when boxcars are 50' or 60' long, 10' wide and 12-13' tall inside for "high cube" cars. Even if you did "cube out" the container before overloading it weight-wise it's a bare fraction of what can be shipped by boxcar.
PLENTY of things are still shipped by boxcar, and as pointed out above, brand new boxcars are still being actively constructed in 2021.
How do you get the animal stink out of the curtains? Do they hold smell?
I mean, how clean are these hides? Are they pretty clean, or are they dripping..uhh...stuff?
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann How do you get the animal stink out of the curtains? Do they hold smell? I mean, how clean are these hides? Are they pretty clean, or are they dripping..uhh...stuff?
SALfan1 Convicted One I recall several years ago there was a story in Trains magazine stating that once a boxcar hauls hides, thereafter it is unfit for anything else. Stretching memory thin, but I think I recall it was one of the Al Perlman stories, where he couldn't believe that some subordinate was not aware of that aspect. I remember that article. As I recall, the subordinate had a solution in mind - wrapping the hides in plastic. I pictured it as the kind of plastic wrap that is used to secure small boxes stacked on pallets, but that was just my guess.
Smell has a way of defeating many of the measures meant to contain it.
Many truckstops have truck/tanker washout services. Where do railroads get theirs done, if needed?
BackshopMany truckstops have truck/tanker washout services. Where do railroads get theirs done, if needed?
Not at truckstops.
Most terminals have a cleaning track out somewhere in an isolated corner and a contractor to do the cleaning - usually sent out there by the rip-track forces.
(In La Junta, there is enough of a chemical reaction in the dunnage pile that piece of ground burns all winter long.)
BaltACDNot at truckstops.
OK, why can't the intermodal containers be washed out at truckstops?
zugmannHow do you get the animal stink out of the curtains? Do they hold smell?
Backshop Many truckstops have truck/tanker washout services. Where do railroads get theirs done, if needed?
At a tank car shop.
The vast majority of tank cars are owned/leased by the shipper, returned empty and reloaded with the same or compatibe materials.
Mac
PNWRMNM Backshop Many truckstops have truck/tanker washout services. Where do railroads get theirs done, if needed? At a tank car shop. The vast majority of tank cars are owned/leased by the shipper, returned empty and reloaded with the same or compatibe materials. Mac
Further to this....
Some large customers (chemical plants, refineries) may have their own car inspectors and shop facilities right at the plant site. Such an arrangement can greatly expedite cleaning and repair work.
There are also standalone railcar repair shops. Sending a car to such a facility usually takes at least one additional day of transit time each way, this time is often longer. As an example, Procor's Edmonton tank car shop is only connected to CP, so if one of their cars is bad ordered while on CN it must first be interchanged to CP before going to the shop. Not a big, big deal in the grand scheme of things, but it does add to the transit time.
I don't see any reason why containers or trailers couldn't be cleaned at a truck & trailer wash facility.
It would be desirable to clean the animal hide service equipment immediately after it is unloaded if it is to be used for any other freight.
greyhounds zugmann How do you get the animal stink out of the curtains? Do they hold smell? The curtain sides are made of impenetrable material (some kind of plastic?) that keeps the cargo protected from the elements. The yucky, smelly stuff should wash off them just as it washes off the metal floor.
zugmann How do you get the animal stink out of the curtains? Do they hold smell?
And what happens when the odor doesn't get washed out despite the action described and the next shipper refuses to accept the car.
greyhounds BaltACD Not at truckstops. OK, why can't the intermodal containers be washed out at truckstops?
BaltACD Not at truckstops.
I am talking about railcars.
BaltACD greyhounds BaltACD Not at truckstops. OK, why can't the intermodal containers be washed out at truckstops? I am talking about railcars.
I was recently reading US Grant's autobiography. He describes in pungent detail the horrible, lingering stench of the tannery business. Anyone planning to use a container or railcar better plan on their being dedicated to that usage alone.
charlie hebdoI was recently reading US Grant's autobiography. He describes in pungent detail the horrible, lingering stench of the tannery business. Anyone planning to use a container or railcar better plan on their being dedicated to that usage alone.
So, are we to be governed by what a tannery smelled like 170 years ago?
If the truckers can clean out and get a return load so can a railroad. If the truckers have to return empty they're a sitting duck and a railroad can easily take the freight and revenue.
greyhounds charlie hebdo I was recently reading US Grant's autobiography. He describes in pungent detail the horrible, lingering stench of the tannery business. Anyone planning to use a container or railcar better plan on their being dedicated to that usage alone. So, are we to be governed by what a tannery smelled like 170 years ago? If the truckers can clean out and get a return load so can a railroad. If the truckers have to return empty they're a sitting duck and a railroad can easily take the freight and revenue.
charlie hebdo I was recently reading US Grant's autobiography. He describes in pungent detail the horrible, lingering stench of the tannery business. Anyone planning to use a container or railcar better plan on their being dedicated to that usage alone.
Have you been in contact with hide haulers?
Here's our answers to shipping hides
Also: https://www.gard.no/Content/24352680/CINS_GuidelinesHidesSkins.pdf
With pictures!
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