Probably not. Much of what used to be shipped in boxcars is now in intermodal trailers or containers.
I doubt the Class 1's are looking to expand their boxcar fleets or replace cars when they are retired. The new business model seems to be leased boxcars from GATX or pool cars through TTX. Now; some shortlines, particularly those serving paper mills, may be adding boxcars. Just as an aside, I'm beginning to see a lot of new Crab Orchard & Egyptian boxcars (reporting marks COER).
CW
TTX is still buying new boxcars, not sure about anyone else or if they are getting enough to keep up with attrition.
I've seen plywood and OSB shipped on centrebeams and gypsum/drywall bundles are a regular sight on them out here, but I agree that boxcars are a better way to ship those products.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Greenbrier Industries is still building them, so i'm assuming they still have buyers. Their website shows new CN and NS boxcars, maybe those two railroads purchased some recently. The total number of boxcars in circulation has declined over the years, from about 133,000 in 2009 to around 100,000 today.
Fred:Just curious...you in Monroe, In or Monon, In?
Trying to narrow down the "small" trailer manufacturer in Indiana. I work with several trailer manufacturers and the Monroe is more of a specialty manufacturer. Just had a customer order with them last fall.
Ed (from Indiana)
Fred M CainLumber can be easily shipped on center beam flatcars but plywood and gypsum board cannot be.
What are the concerns with shipping plywood and gypsum board on center beams?
I imagine exposure to the elements, even if wrapped, stop the use of center beams for those.
SD70Dude TTX is still buying new boxcars, not sure about anyone else or if they are getting enough to keep up with attrition. I've seen plywood and OSB shipped on centrebeams and gypsum/drywall bundles are a regular sight on them out here, but I agree that boxcars are a better way to ship those products.
I agree about boxcars being better equipped as well. Though I as well have witnessed gypsum and other board being hauled on centerbeams for years. Example Home Depot DC's that are rail served tend to get alot of their board on center beams. IIRC.
greyhounds Fred M Cain Lumber can be easily shipped on center beam flatcars but plywood and gypsum board cannot be. What are the concerns with shipping plywood and gypsum board on center beams?
Fred M Cain Lumber can be easily shipped on center beam flatcars but plywood and gypsum board cannot be.
It's both exposure and size. Drywall, OSB, plywood, particleboard etc are easily damaged by moisture, and the sheets are often wider than one side of a centrebeam. I've seen plywood bundles on bulkhead flats that were the full width of the car, those might not have fit in a boxcar.
BackshopWould these be regular boxcars or "all door" ones?
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
SD70Dude greyhounds Fred M Cain Lumber can be easily shipped on center beam flatcars but plywood and gypsum board cannot be. What are the concerns with shipping plywood and gypsum board on center beams? It's both exposure and size. Drywall, OSB, plywood, particleboard etc are easily damaged by moisture, and the sheets are often wider than one side of a centrebeam. I've seen plywood bundles on bulkhead flats that were the full width of the car, those might not have fit in a boxcar.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding Receiver of lumber and OSB here. The mills have perfected wrapping the units so they ship dry. Drywall is shrink wrapped. We got a boxcar of plywood-once.
Receiver of lumber and OSB here. The mills have perfected wrapping the units so they ship dry. Drywall is shrink wrapped. We got a boxcar of plywood-once.
I've often seen plastic-wrapped bundles from USG sitting on trains in the pouring rain, and wondered how well wrapped they really were.
CShaveRR Backshop Would these be regular boxcars or "all door" ones? The all-door box cars (Mechanical Designation LU) were pretty much all built in the early 1970s. All of those doors were just expenses waiting to happen. It was almost a misnomer to call them box cars, because what they really were were covered bulkhead flat cars with big, heavy doors hanging from the roof. Wrapping the product made more sense. And when Centerbeam flat cars came along, with higher load limits due to the lack of need for a heavy center sill, that just about did them in. As mentioned above, some loads couldn't fit on a centerbeam car, but bulkhead flat cars, in spite of exposing poorly-protected loads to moisture, were far easier to load and unload (and to clean out) than something that involved passing through doors.
Backshop Would these be regular boxcars or "all door" ones?
CSSHEGEWISCH Probably not. Much of what used to be shipped in boxcars is now in intermodal trailers or containers.
The issue here is that some products are too heavy to be shipped in a container. OSB, plywood and wall panels are HEAVY. Some boxcars can handle 100 tons while containers cannot handle anywhere near that amount of weight. How much weight can you load in a container? 20 tons? 30 tons? Maybe 40 tons? Does anybody know for sure?
SD60MAC9500 I agree about boxcars being better equipped as well. Though I as well have witnessed gypsum and other board being hauled on centerbeams for years. Example Home Depot DC's that are rail served tend to get alot of their board on center beams. IIRC.
MP173 Fred:Just curious...you in Monroe, In or Monon, In? Trying to narrow down the "small" trailer manufacturer in Indiana. I work with several trailer manufacturers and the Monroe is more of a specialty manufacturer. Just had a customer order with them last fall. Ed (from Indiana)
Fred M Cain The issue here is that some products are too heavy to be shipped in a container. OSB, plywood and wall panels are HEAVY. Some boxcars can handle 100 tons while containers cannot handle anywhere near that amount of weight. How much weight can you load in a container? 20 tons? 30 tons? Maybe 40 tons? Does anybody know for sure?
Containers are also relatively tiny, being 40' by 8' by 8-9' feet, when boxcars are 50' or 60' long, 10' wide and 12-13' tall inside for "high cube" cars. Even if you did "cube out" the container before overloading it weight-wise it's a bare fraction of what can be shipped by boxcar.
PLENTY of things are still shipped by boxcar, and as pointed out above, brand new boxcars are still being actively constructed in 2021.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
Juniata Man I doubt the Class 1's are looking to expand their boxcar fleets or replace cars when they are retired. The new business model seems to be leased boxcars from GATX or pool cars through TTX. Now; some shortlines, particularly those serving paper mills, may be adding boxcars. Just as an aside, I'm beginning to see a lot of new Crab Orchard & Egyptian boxcars (reporting marks COER). CW
It's not so much shortlines that are acquiring new boxcars, it's the leasing companies using the shortline reporting marks under some agreement. Most of those AOK, ATW, COER, NOKL, LRS, etc. "shortline" cars are owned by Greenbrier, CIT, Wells Fargo, GATX, or other leasing companies and leased to the railways. Most of those COER cars mentioned are in fact probably being leased directly to various Class I railways and may never at any point in their lives EVER hit "home" rails.
New all door cars haven't been built in 40 years.
There's pretty much two most common "standard" designs for modern boxcars built in recent years:
50' inside length, Plate F excess height "high-cube" cars with single plug doors (FBOX standard)
60' inside length, Plate F excess height "high-cube" cars with double plug doors (TBOX standard)
And plenty of older cars from the nineties similar to the "FBOX" standard are rolling around, and also many many older late 1970s - early 1980s 50' Plate C "standard" height single sliding door (RBOX standard) cars are still out in the pool of general service boxcars, including mid-seventies Plate B cars that have been rebuilt to raise their roofs and internal volume to Plate C or F cars. These have basically less than a decade of interchange service life left in them and will gradually be replaced by the newer plate F 50' cars. (A car built in 1980 has a 50-year service life ending in 2030.)
CN acquired 300 new boxcars through one of the leasing outfits a couple years ago, I forget which one.
They bought 300 new centrebeams from National Steel Car at the same time.
greyhounds There seems to be more to this. In Monday’s (4/19/2021) Wall Street Journal digital edition there is a video titled “How the Pandemic Made Lumber America’s Hottest Commodity.” It’s paywalled. blob:https://www.wsj.com/5933537f-1619-49e8-b059-df80a4f48bc3 The demand for lumber, and lumber products, has increased dramatically. People are buying free standing homes at a very increased pace. This includes new construction. They are also remodeling at a very increased pace. The demand curve for lumber, OSB, etc. has shifted significantly higher. This has naturally driven lumber prices up. The sawmills can only pump out so much. The available rail car fleet capable of carrying lumber is what it is. It can, of course, be increased with new purchases. But you can’t buy a long-term asset for a short-term boom. The purchase analysis will focus on the projected discounted cash flows. The cash flows in the future will be discounted for three things. Once because a dollar ten years out is worth less than a dollar today. Second, because no one can see ten years out and know what the demand for lumber transport will be ten years from now. A rail car asset bought to carry lumber today could well be totally worthless in ten years. That isn’t good for an asset with a projected life of 40 years or so. The future cash flow must be discounted to account for that very real risk. Third, there are alternative uses for the capital investment. The potential returns foregone by buying a rail car instead of buying a peach orchard must be included. IF, the discounted future cash flow projections exceed the purchase price, the new rail car can be reasonably purchased. It doesn’t really matter if the railroad or a 3rd party buys the new car. The numbers must work. I’ll reason some of this difficulty in finding boxcars is due to the increased demand for their use in transporting lumber. And there is no way to justify buying more of them if that increased demand isn’t going to last. And, right now, no one has a clue as to if that increased demand is going to last.
Maybe it's time RR's looked into shifting most building materials into the IM network. Add Flatracks into the mix as they can be double stacked, are relatively cheap to build, don't carry the burden of boxcar investment, and can haul a multitude of items from lumber to steel products. Anything over size can use a flatcar.
To the biggest extent possible - Railroad are trying to minimize their investment in equipment used to haul product and give that responsibility to the user community.
You want your product hauled - you supply the rail car, container or trailer - the railroad will provide the the transportation.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
SD60MAC9500Maybe it's time RR's looked into shifting most building materials into the IM network. Add Flatracks into the mix as they can be double stacked, are relatively cheap to build, don't carry the burden of boxcar investment, and can haul a multitude of items from lumber to steel products. Anything over size can use a flatcar.
I'll more than agree with that. (except for the double stack) Going IM would reduce the investment risks since the equipment could be more readily repurposed if the lumber traffic went away. Reducing those risks will reduce the costs of acquiring new equipment. (Again, it doesn’t matter if a railroad or a 3rd party acquires the equipment. The risk costs are there and must be accounted for.)
Here’s my favorite, the curtain side. I’d use containers instead of trailers.
curtain side flatbed - Bing images
A sawmill (or paper mill) is a concentrated point of freight origin. So, an on-site intermodal terminal is a consideration. Bring in empty curtain side containers on spine cars. The shipper can load the containers while they are on the spine cars. No need for container lift on/lift off. The curtain side containers will provide protection for the commodity against the elements.
Pick the car up with the local, as would be done with a boxcar. Move it to an existing IM terminal and get it on a fast train toward destination. The loads can then be distributed by truck to various consignees. This allows them to receive in smaller quantities and reduces their inventory carrying cost.
Unlike a center beam the containers can be loaded in both directions. UPS, FedEx, LTL, most anything, can go in those containers. (Boxcars are also quite limited in their reload potential.)
I actually got something such as this tried. I even got a container leasing company to lend us a flat rack free of charge for a trial. I should have been on the ground for the trial. But I had to go on my two week’s duty with the Illinois National Guard. So, it’s just a memory.
Now, some of you feel free to tell me why this can’t possibly work.
BaltACD You want your product hauled - you supply the rail car, container or trailer - the railroad will provide the the transportation.
Maybe.
Jeff
jeffhergert BaltACD You want your product hauled - you supply the rail car, container or trailer - the railroad will provide the the transportation. Maybe. Jeff
Maybe on the transportation
No way Jose on the vehicle to be transported
greyhounds SD60MAC9500 Maybe it's time RR's looked into shifting most building materials into the IM network. Add Flatracks into the mix as they can be double stacked, are relatively cheap to build, don't carry the burden of boxcar investment, and can haul a multitude of items from lumber to steel products. Anything over size can use a flatcar. I'll more than agree with that. (except for the double stack) Going IM would reduce the investment risks since the equipment could be more readily repurposed if the lumber traffic went away. Reducing those risks will reduce the costs of acquiring new equipment. (Again, it doesn’t matter if a railroad or a 3rd party acquires the equipment. The risk costs are there and must be accounted for.) Here’s my favorite, the curtain side. I’d use containers instead of trailers. curtain side flatbed - Bing images A sawmill (or paper mill) is a concentrated point of freight origin. So, an on-site intermodal terminal is a consideration. Bring in empty curtain side containers on spine cars. The shipper can load the containers while they are on the spine cars. No need for container lift on/lift off. The curtain side containers will provide protection for the commodity against the elements. Pick the car up with the local, as would be done with a boxcar. Move it to an existing IM terminal and get it on a fast train toward destination. The loads can then be distributed by truck to various consignees. This allows them to receive in smaller quantities and reduces their inventory carrying cost. Unlike a center beam the containers can be loaded in both directions. UPS, FedEx, LTL, most anything, can go in those containers. (Boxcars are also quite limited in their reload potential.) I actually got something such as this tried. I even got a container leasing company to lend us a flat rack free of charge for a trial. I should have been on the ground for the trial. But I had to go on my two week’s duty with the Illinois National Guard. So, it’s just a memory. Now, some of you feel free to tell me why this can’t possibly work.
SD60MAC9500 Maybe it's time RR's looked into shifting most building materials into the IM network. Add Flatracks into the mix as they can be double stacked, are relatively cheap to build, don't carry the burden of boxcar investment, and can haul a multitude of items from lumber to steel products. Anything over size can use a flatcar.
This could absolutely work. The equipment, trains and customers exist. But I will tell you what current railroad management will probably do.
Each platform occupies one car of space, so the railroad will probably want to charge a full carload rate for each container, which of course can only carry a fraction of a boxcar's capacity. So the customer will end up paying a much higher shipping rate per bundle of widgets than if they were using boxcars or centrebeams, and will still end up with slow service compared to a normal intermodal shipment.
And of course this is different and will require some attention and effort, especially at the start. PSR doesn't want new business if it you have to work for it or if it doesn't fit the predetermined operating plan. And forget it if it might lower the operating ratio.
There used to be a company in Jefferson IA that loaded a 5 unit spine car. They had their own container lift vehicle. They would off load the empty containers, load them and then reload them on the spine car. IIRC, the load was soy products for export.
The local would spot and deliver the spine car. At the local's home terminal the car would be sent west on the manifest that picked up and set out there. It's been many years since this operation stopped. I think the company closed down.
IIRC that was West Central co-op, I dont think they did the soy export stuff for too long
jeffhergert There used to be a company in Jefferson IA that loaded a 5 unit spine car. They had their own container lift vehicle. They would off load the empty containers, load them and then reload them on the spine car. IIRC, the load was soy products for export. The local would spot and deliver the spine car. At the local's home terminal the car would be sent west on the manifest that picked up and set out there. It's been many years since this operation stopped. I think the company closed down. Jeff
Likely key word there being "export". Load in containers at the source so they can be directly intermodal'ed overseas, rather than being trans-loaded from hoppers to containers at another facility.
For domestic rail shipping car-load traffic loads much more bulk commodity.
cv_acr Likely key word there being "export". Load in containers at the source so they can be directly intermodal'ed overseas, rather than being trans-loaded from hoppers to containers at another facility.
Lots of grain shippers do that here, but the containers are always trucked to and from the nearest intermodal terminals.
There is a customer up in Fort McMurray that ships 20' containers on 89' flatcars that move in regular carload freight service, not on intermodal trains. I'm not sure exactly what they ship, the waybills aren't very clear, but I've always presumed it is some sort of specialty chemicals.
I like your idea. I'm also a fan of tarpsides. Their versatility is awesome they can haul anything from bulk to agriculture. When I had my 3PL I was looking at purchasing a group of tarpsides. I may still do it..
SD70DudePSR doesn't want new business if it you have to work for it or if it doesn't fit the predetermined operating plan. And forget it if it might lower the operating ratio.
Murphy Siding I run a lumber yard that gets OSB and lumber on railcars and by truck. A typical rail car of OSB comes on a centerbeam car. It consists of 2 piles of 27 units, one on each side. Each pile is 4' wide, 72' long and 9' high. Weight of the product is around 186,00#. For a typical lumber delivery, the piles are 49" wide, 80' long, 11'high. Weight is, I believe around 193,000#(?) A typical truckload would be about 13 units of OSB (45,000# more or less). A truckload of wood would be similar in weight. Once you add the tare weight of the container to the spine car, I wonder how much OSB you could put in a softside container? Is 40' the outside dimension of a container? If so, you could only put 4 units end to end. The units are 36" high. How high could yo stack them. How many units @ 3400# each could you put in a softside container? How many total on a spine car? You could get 38' of lumber units in a 40 container. That's about 11,500# per row. How much fits in container, how much on spine car? What holds the units of lumber or OSB in place without a centerbeam to tie the load down too? While the units are wrapped to make them weather-proof, they are now banded with wimpy nylon banding. The material moves a lot in rail transit due slach action. We alos see loads shifted from side-to-side, even when tied to the center beam frame. Trucks have the same problem, maybe worse. I used to work at a lumber yard by an interstate highway. We made money shifting and restacking loads for truckers. Without a center beam to tie to, you'd be moving a tall deck of cards down the rails. Taking that all into account, how competitive would something like this be with trucking? Consider material moving from Western Canada to eastern South Dakota.
If this were actually going somewhere it would be time to talk to the potential shippers and receivers to identify and work out any potential problems.
Some related thoughts-Our yard is 83 miles from the main Sioux City railyard. A driver could make 2 trips a day to us and sleep at home that night.
Since we are used to buying a railcar which is equivalent to about 4 trucks, we could easily do 4 containers at a time. Sometimes we get 2 cars at a time, = 8 containers.A Sioux City intermodal ramp could also service Des Moines and Lincoln which are fair sized markets.Sioux City is served by UP, BNSF and CN.What potential freight could you haul out of Sioux City that doesn't involve refrigerated cow and pig parts?
Murphy Siding What potential freight could you haul out of Sioux City that doesn't involve refrigerated cow and pig parts?
Hides and honey.
greyhounds Murphy Siding What potential freight could you haul out of Sioux City that doesn't involve refrigerated cow and pig parts? Hides and honey.
Murphy SidingHoney?
Sue Bee Honey. Regular shipper back in the day.
Sue Bee - Sioux Honey Association Co-Op
greyhounds Murphy Siding Honey? Sue Bee Honey. Regular shipper back in the day. Sue Bee - Sioux Honey Association Co-Op
Murphy Siding Honey?
While we're talking about my favorite sweet. North Dakota is the top producer in the US when it comes to honey. As of 2020's reporting. ND Apiaries produced 38.6 Million pounds of this deliciousness.
BNSF? CP? Or maybe the margins on this traffic are to low too justify moving it..
SD60MAC9500 greyhounds Murphy Siding Honey? Sue Bee Honey. Regular shipper back in the day. Sue Bee - Sioux Honey Association Co-Opking about my favorite sweet. North Dakota is the top producer in the US when it comes to honey. As of 2020's reporting. ND Apiaries produced 38.6 Million pounds of this deliciousness. BNSF? CP? Or maybe the margins on this traffic are to low to justify moving it..
greyhounds Murphy Siding Honey? Sue Bee Honey. Regular shipper back in the day. Sue Bee - Sioux Honey Association Co-Opking about my favorite sweet. North Dakota is the top producer in the US when it comes to honey. As of 2020's reporting. ND Apiaries produced 38.6 Million pounds of this deliciousness.
Sue Bee - Sioux Honey Association Co-Opking about my favorite sweet. North Dakota is the top producer in the US when it comes to honey. As of 2020's reporting. ND Apiaries produced 38.6 Million pounds of this deliciousness.
BNSF? CP? Or maybe the margins on this traffic are to low to justify moving it..
SD60MAC9500BNSF? CP? Or maybe the margins on this traffic are to low to justify moving it..
Doesn't seem so. They don't just home consume all that honey in North Dakota.
There is a demand for honey. One governing factor in that demand is the price of honey. The price to the end user must cover all costs, including transport to Chicago, New York, wherever. Since we can all buy honey whenever we've a mind to I'll say it pays to ship the honey from the production centers to the consuming centers.
Sue Bee is a major producer and ships its production to population centers.
OK, enough with the honey.
I once calculated that the Tyson beef plant in Dakota City, NE (it's like nine miles from Sioux City) created ~37 truckloads per workday of cowhides. Since then the plant's capacity has been increased.
The packers don't want to waste a thing from the slaughtered animal. Cowhides are one of the more valuable byproducts.
greyhoundsOK, enough with the honey. I once calculated that the Tyson beef plant in Dakota City, NE (it's like nine miles from Sioux City) created 37 truckloads per workday of cowhides. Since then the plant's capacity has been increased. The packers don't want to waste a thing from the slaughtered animal. Cowhides are one of the more valuable byproducts.
I once calculated that the Tyson beef plant in Dakota City, NE (it's like nine miles from Sioux City) created 37 truckloads per workday of cowhides. Since then the plant's capacity has been increased.
When I worked the B&O's FY Tower in Pittsburgh (that was BOLTED) to the 33rd Street Bridge across the Allegheny River - the bridge had piers on Herr's Island which housed a animal rendering plant - the plant shipped out hides in box cars and in the pre-EPA days dumped all the liquid remanents of their operations directly into the river at about 6 PM daily! On 2nd trick, if you hadn't completed lunch by dump time, you were unlikely to have the taste left to eat anything account the gagging smell.
greyhounds OK, enough with the honey. I once calculated that the Tyson beef plant in Dakota City, NE (it's like nine miles from Sioux City) created ~37 truckloads per workday of cowhides. Since then the plant's capacity has been increased. The packers don't want to waste a thing from the slaughtered animal. Cowhides are one of the more valuable byproducts.
Murphy Siding greyhounds OK, enough with the honey. I once calculated that the Tyson beef plant in Dakota City, NE (it's like nine miles from Sioux City) created ~37 truckloads per workday of cowhides. Since then the plant's capacity has been increased. The packers don't want to waste a thing from the slaughtered animal. Cowhides are one of the more valuable byproducts. If I understand the idea in our example, a truck takes the soft-side container full of cowhides from Dakota City to the IM terminal at Sioux City. From there it's shipped by rail to Timbuctoo. There, they are unloaded and hauled by truck to the ACME recliner factory (or whoever has use for cow hides.) Then, hopefully the container is loaded with something for the midwest market and shipped back to Sioux City. I could see this working and I could see this taking a lot of effort to get started. You'd need to identify all the possible loads in and out of the IM terminal and try to keep the containers loaded and moving.*~37 truckloads of cowhides a day? That seems like a lot. What space does a cowhide take up- 3 to 4 cubic feet maybe? That's a lot of cows per day! I know, I know. It's details, and we need to look at the big picture, but things like that always throw a monkey wrench into my over-analyzing mind....I wonder how many monkey wrenches it takes to fill a container?
If I understand the idea in our example, a truck takes the soft-side container full of cowhides from Dakota City to the IM terminal at Sioux City. From there it's shipped by rail to Timbuctoo. There, they are unloaded and hauled by truck to the ACME recliner factory (or whoever has use for cow hides.) Then, hopefully the container is loaded with something for the midwest market and shipped back to Sioux City. I could see this working and I could see this taking a lot of effort to get started. You'd need to identify all the possible loads in and out of the IM terminal and try to keep the containers loaded and moving.*~37 truckloads of cowhides a day? That seems like a lot. What space does a cowhide take up- 3 to 4 cubic feet maybe? That's a lot of cows per day! I know, I know. It's details, and we need to look at the big picture, but things like that always throw a monkey wrench into my over-analyzing mind....I wonder how many monkey wrenches it takes to fill a container?
Hides SMELL - anything that is used to haul hides - basically cannot be used to haul anything else - at least anything else that is subject to having useers smell it.
Murphy Siding I could see this working and I could see this taking a lot of effort to get started. You'd need to identify all the possible loads in and out of the IM terminal and try to keep the containers loaded and moving.
Yes, that was part of my job in marketing. That's what we're there to do.
Murphy Siding *~37 truckloads of cowhides a day? That seems like a lot. What space does a cowhide take up- 3 to 4 cubic feet maybe? That's a lot of cows per day! I know, I know. It's details, and we need to look at the big picture, but things like that always throw a monkey wrench into my over-analyzing mind....I wonder how many monkey wrenches it takes to fill a container?
*~37 truckloads of cowhides a day? That seems like a lot. What space does a cowhide take up- 3 to 4 cubic feet maybe? That's a lot of cows per day! I know, I know. It's details, and we need to look at the big picture, but things like that always throw a monkey wrench into my over-analyzing mind....I wonder how many monkey wrenches it takes to fill a container?
Well, they were killing around 4,000 cattle per day back then. They kill more today. I'll try to go back to the calculation, but 4,000 hides per day worked out to ~37 truckloads. If you've got a better figure I'll consider it. I don't claim perfection, but I do projections. I accept that I can project incorrectly. Show me that I did.
Upon further review, I cannot recreate my number of 37 truckloads of hides per day. And I can't find the calculation that produced that number.
My new number is 7.33 truckloads of hides per day.
This is calculated at 5,000 cattle per work day times 66 pounds per hide. I've estimated a truckload at 45,000 ponds.
I'll thank Murphy Siding for catching my error.
greyhounds I've estimated a truckload at 45,000 ponds.
Will they cube out or tare out?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 greyhounds I've estimated a truckload at 45,000 ponds. Will they cube out or tare out?
Seriously: I'd expect tare long before cube for hides. Depends to an extent how the hides are packaged for shipping, and what sort of dunnage is appropriate.
tree68Will they cube out or tare out?
greyhounds The needed skill for the marketing department is to know the markets and how the railroad can profitably serve those markets. You can't ad hoc the operation for every customer. Unfortunately, I don’t currently see much of that skill in the railroads’ marketing efforts. Today’s marketing people don’t seem to know what a railroad can do. Along the way someone is inevitably going to say: “No, that can’t possibly work.” If the marketing folks don’t know better, and it seems they don’t, they’ll take that “No.” There is a natural conflict between marketing and operations. This conflict can be beneficial, or it can be toxic. A weak, unknowledgeable marketing department makes it toxic. Here’s a great example of what can be done with some creativity and knowledge. CN established an intermodal terminal in Chippewa Falls, WI. CNIntermodal_FactSheet2page.pdf (chippewa-wi.com) The facility is focused on reloading containers to Asia with animal feed. Primarily distillers’ dried grains. These are what is left over after corn is turned in to ethanol for motor fuel. There are a whole lot of other such opportunities. It's critical to relize that the problem is not that the railroads don't want the business. It's that they simply don't have the ability to evaluate and develop the business.
It is also worth noting that when PSR 'streamlines' operations the marketing department is hit hard. No real need to communicate with customers if you are going to dictate what sort of service they will receive. And forget about recruiting new business.
The Chippewa Falls example is not the only smaller intermodal terminal on CN. Prince George exists mainly to reload forest products into containers (mostly westbound for export through Prince Rupert), and I believe Arcadia, WI is almost completely dedicated to Ashley Furniture's business.
greyhounds Upon further review, I cannot recreate my number of 37 truckloads of hides per day. And I can't find the calculation that produced that number. My new number is 7.33 truckloads of hides per day. This is calculated at 5,000 cattle per work day times 66 pounds per hide. I've estimated a truckload at 45,000 ponds. I'll thank Murphy Siding for catching my error.
BaltACDHides SMELL - anything that is used to haul hides - basically cannot be used to haul anything else - at least anything else that is subject to having useers smell it.
greyhounds BaltACD Hides SMELL - anything that is used to haul hides - basically cannot be used to haul anything else - at least anything else that is subject to having useers smell it. I certainly don’t want to get crosswise with Balt. He brings experience and knowledge to these discussions and expresses himself well without resorting to personal attacks. But… This is an example of a “No, this can’t possibly work” statement that will stop a marketing business development idea cold. Unless the marketing people are determined and knowledgeable this “It’ll wreck the equipment” statement will leave the hide loads on the highway. This needs to be dealt with as a problem to be solved. Not as a total showstopper. I’ll agree that if the container were to have a wood floor or wood siding the hide loads would badly contaminate the wood and make the container unsuitable for transporting much else. So, don’t use wood. Use a container with a metal floor (aluminum or steel) and curtain sides. A good power washout at the hides’ destination should solve the problem. But the marketing folks must know this and have the will to push back. Today’s rail marketing folks don’t seem to have the required knowledge or will.
BaltACD Hides SMELL - anything that is used to haul hides - basically cannot be used to haul anything else - at least anything else that is subject to having useers smell it.
As long as you Steam Clean the vehicles after Hide use and you are next transporting a commodity that doesn't have smell or the lack thereof as some element of its sale appeal. The composition of the vehicle is not material - wood, metal, composite materials - smell attaches to each material.
Smell is a powerful element of the human existance - for good and for ill. It doesn't take much of a 'bad smell' to turn public sentiments. When I was living in Jacksonville there was a major political effort to get rid of the smells of paper making from the paper plants in the area. The 19th and early 20th Century people accepted smell as a necessary part of local economic activity. The smell of hides, the smell of paper making, the smell of rubber making - in the late 20th and into the 21st Century those smells are no longer acceptable.
BaltACD greyhounds BaltACD Hides SMELL - anything that is used to haul hides - basically cannot be used to haul anything else - at least anything else that is subject to having useers smell it. I certainly don’t want to get crosswise with Balt. He brings experience and knowledge to these discussions and expresses himself well without resorting to personal attacks. But… This is an example of a “No, this can’t possibly work” statement that will stop a marketing business development idea cold. Unless the marketing people are determined and knowledgeable this “It’ll wreck the equipment” statement will leave the hide loads on the highway. This needs to be dealt with as a problem to be solved. Not as a total showstopper. I’ll agree that if the container were to have a wood floor or wood siding the hide loads would badly contaminate the wood and make the container unsuitable for transporting much else. So, don’t use wood. Use a container with a metal floor (aluminum or steel) and curtain sides. A good power washout at the hides’ destination should solve the problem. But the marketing folks must know this and have the will to push back. Today’s rail marketing folks don’t seem to have the required knowledge or will. As long as you Steam Clean the vehicles after Hide use and you are next transporting a commodity that doesn't have smell or the lack thereof as some element of its sale appeal. The composition of the vehicle is not material - wood, metal, composite materials - smell attaches to each material. Smell is a powerful element of the human existance - for good and for ill. It doesn't take much of a 'bad smell' to turn public sentiments. When I was living in Jacksonville there was a major political effort to get rid of the smells of paper making from the paper plants in the area. The 19th and early 20th Century people accepted smell as a necessary part of local economic activity. The smell of hides, the smell of paper making, the smell of rubber making - in the late 20th and into the 21st Century those smells are no longer acceptable.
BaltACDSmell is a powerful element of the human existance - for good and for ill. It doesn't take much of a 'bad smell' to turn public sentiments.
I recall several years ago there was a story in Trains magazine stating that once a boxcar hauls hides, thereafter it is unfit for anything else.
Stretching memory thin, but I think I recall it was one of the Al Perlman stories, where he couldn't believe that some subordinate was not aware of that aspect.
Also consider the boxcars that were classified XF for food service. It didn't take too much to contaminate them and it would then require a major cleaning to maintain the classification.
Assuming the container or trailer can be satisfactorily cleaned, how difficult is this and how much does it cost?
I'm honestly asking, perhaps Shadow's Owner could weigh in here.
BaltACD The composition of the vehicle is not material - wood, metal, composite materials - smell attaches to each material.
The composition of the vehicle is not material - wood, metal, composite materials - smell attaches to each material.
SD60MAC9500 BaltACD The composition of the vehicle is not material - wood, metal, composite materials - smell attaches to each material. If it's a wood floor trailer that will make a difference as the fiberous nature of wood holds oils and liquids longer than metal, and composite floors letting any stench linger. I've never cared for wood floor trailers for that reason. Due to my experience with them when it comes to spills, leaks, etc.. Those may or may not come out and can ruin a good floor.
Wood is the most retentive of smells and other kinds of things. However, all materials are retentive of smells to varying degrees.
Remember humans have among the least sensitive of noses among all mammals.
BaltACDWood is the most retentive of smells and other kinds of things. However, all materials are retentive of smells to varying degrees.
And here we are. There is no possible solution? The hides must continue to move by highway transport. Of course the truckers don't want to go back empty. If they were to do so the railroad could also send the equipment back empty and be more than competitive on price. I tell you, those truckers are magic.
I'll agree that the cat's owner can provide better information on clean out prices, but I'd budget $75/load for the clean out.
greyhounds BaltACD Wood is the most retentive of smells and other kinds of things. However, all materials are retentive of smells to varying degrees. And here we are. There is no possible solution? The hides must continue to move by highway transport. Of course the truckers don't want to go back empty. If they were to do so the railroad could also send the equipment back empty and be more than competitive on price. I tell you, those truckers are magic. I'll agree that the cat's owner can provide better information on clean out prices, but I'd budget $75/load for the clean out.
BaltACD Wood is the most retentive of smells and other kinds of things. However, all materials are retentive of smells to varying degrees.
How much revenue will you get from hides? How much will it cost to get the revenue? It is a simple equation.
Hides, to my knowledge are not a high value commodity and thus will not bring in a high amount of revenue per unit shipped. Anything that has to be done to the equipment hauling hides to facilitate the vehicles being used for another commodity detracts from the revenue of the hides.
I believe the hides that the B&O hauled from Herr's Island in Pittsburgh to unknown to me destinations were in assigned service and where returned to Herr's Island for more loads of hides. I could smell the cars as the passed FY Tower and Etna Towers on the B&O's P&W Sub both loaded and empty.
Another question...does the receiver of the hides have rail service? If not, that's another transload for a low revenue item.
When I worked for IBP at Perry Iowa, the day shift did nothing but export hogs for Japan. They even had the hides sent to Japan in refrigerated containers.
The sidetrack about smelly cowhides aside, I could see a future in something like this. It might not be that the railroads have to go so low as it is that the trucking rates are going to keep going up. My father was an OTR trucker. It's not a glamorous job and it doesn't pay all that well for what you have to give it. I know a trucker lady will come on here and say that all their drivers make a million bucks a year and are happy as clams. I know better.
jeffhergertWhen I worked for IBP at Perry Iowa, the day shift did nothing but export hogs for Japan. They even had the hides sent to Japan in refrigerated containers. Jeff
I guess the hides came back to the USA as footballs for the NFL, NCAA and all the High Schools. [/sarcasm]
BaltACDHow much revenue will you get from hides? How much will it cost to get the revenue? It is a simple equation.
Well, here we go again. The truckers can haul this freight but the railroad can’t? And that’s that! A (former) railroad operating person is fighting against bringing new loads and revenue to the railroad. There’s nothing to be done. Can’t do a thing. Just give up and let the truckers have the business.
It is in no way “A simple equation.” Railroad cost accounting is a can of worms. Too many cost elements are but arbitrary allocations of joint costs. No one in the world can really determine “The Cost” of moving a rail load of hides or anything else. The car hire cost is specific to the hide load. It’s one of the cost elements that can be determined. But the crew cost? The maintenance of way cost? The dispatching cost? Etc. They’re joint and cannot be assigned accurately to any specific revenue load.
People can create an average cost. But if average costs are used they’ll produce the wrong answer every time. It’s the marginal revenue vs. marginal cost relationship that counts.
BaltACDHides, to my knowledge are not a high value commodity and thus will not bring in a high amount of revenue per unit shipped. Anything that has to be done to the equipment hauling hides to facilitate the vehicles being used for another commodity detracts from the revenue of the hides.
Convicted One I recall several years ago there was a story in Trains magazine stating that once a boxcar hauls hides, thereafter it is unfit for anything else. Stretching memory thin, but I think I recall it was one of the Al Perlman stories, where he couldn't believe that some subordinate was not aware of that aspect.
I remember that article. As I recall, the subordinate had a solution in mind - wrapping the hides in plastic. I pictured it as the kind of plastic wrap that is used to secure small boxes stacked on pallets, but that was just my guess.
cv_acr Domestic containers are 53 ft l x 8' 6" w x 9'6" h exterior measure - basically the same dimensions as a highway trailer. Lumber, plywood, MDF, and gypsum wallboard will weigh out before cubing out in a container. The weight you can load is a function of the lowest allowable highway weight at origin and destination, and the chassis and tractor characteristics. Say roughly 48,000 # in the US, much higher in Canada with a tridem chassis - in the order of 80,000 #. I think the main shift in the boxcar markets has been the one away from a host of specialized car configurations, to a few "standard" types - 50 Ft Plate F single door for rolled paper, and 60 Ft Plate F double door for just about everything else - both 286k MWOR of course. I think TTX, lessors, and the big forest products roads, notably CN, will be acquiring these car types, especially the double doors, for some time. The ones falling out the bottom will be the odds and sods, Plate C's and E's, &tc. Fred M Cain The issue here is that some products are too heavy to be shipped in a container. OSB, plywood and wall panels are HEAVY. Some boxcars can handle 100 tons while containers cannot handle anywhere near that amount of weight. How much weight can you load in a container? 20 tons? 30 tons? Maybe 40 tons? Does anybody know for sure? Containers are also relatively tiny, being 40' by 8' by 8-9' feet, when boxcars are 50' or 60' long, 10' wide and 12-13' tall inside for "high cube" cars. Even if you did "cube out" the container before overloading it weight-wise it's a bare fraction of what can be shipped by boxcar. PLENTY of things are still shipped by boxcar, and as pointed out above, brand new boxcars are still being actively constructed in 2021.
Domestic containers are 53 ft l x 8' 6" w x 9'6" h exterior measure - basically the same dimensions as a highway trailer. Lumber, plywood, MDF, and gypsum wallboard will weigh out before cubing out in a container. The weight you can load is a function of the lowest allowable highway weight at origin and destination, and the chassis and tractor characteristics. Say roughly 48,000 # in the US, much higher in Canada with a tridem chassis - in the order of 80,000 #.
I think the main shift in the boxcar markets has been the one away from a host of specialized car configurations, to a few "standard" types - 50 Ft Plate F single door for rolled paper, and 60 Ft Plate F double door for just about everything else - both 286k MWOR of course. I think TTX, lessors, and the big forest products roads, notably CN, will be acquiring these car types, especially the double doors, for some time. The ones falling out the bottom will be the odds and sods, Plate C's and E's, &tc.
How do you get the animal stink out of the curtains? Do they hold smell?
I mean, how clean are these hides? Are they pretty clean, or are they dripping..uhh...stuff?
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann How do you get the animal stink out of the curtains? Do they hold smell? I mean, how clean are these hides? Are they pretty clean, or are they dripping..uhh...stuff?
SALfan1 Convicted One I recall several years ago there was a story in Trains magazine stating that once a boxcar hauls hides, thereafter it is unfit for anything else. Stretching memory thin, but I think I recall it was one of the Al Perlman stories, where he couldn't believe that some subordinate was not aware of that aspect. I remember that article. As I recall, the subordinate had a solution in mind - wrapping the hides in plastic. I pictured it as the kind of plastic wrap that is used to secure small boxes stacked on pallets, but that was just my guess.
Smell has a way of defeating many of the measures meant to contain it.
Many truckstops have truck/tanker washout services. Where do railroads get theirs done, if needed?
BackshopMany truckstops have truck/tanker washout services. Where do railroads get theirs done, if needed?
Not at truckstops.
Most terminals have a cleaning track out somewhere in an isolated corner and a contractor to do the cleaning - usually sent out there by the rip-track forces.
(In La Junta, there is enough of a chemical reaction in the dunnage pile that piece of ground burns all winter long.)
BaltACDNot at truckstops.
OK, why can't the intermodal containers be washed out at truckstops?
zugmannHow do you get the animal stink out of the curtains? Do they hold smell?
Backshop Many truckstops have truck/tanker washout services. Where do railroads get theirs done, if needed?
At a tank car shop.
The vast majority of tank cars are owned/leased by the shipper, returned empty and reloaded with the same or compatibe materials.
Mac
PNWRMNM Backshop Many truckstops have truck/tanker washout services. Where do railroads get theirs done, if needed? At a tank car shop. The vast majority of tank cars are owned/leased by the shipper, returned empty and reloaded with the same or compatibe materials. Mac
Further to this....
Some large customers (chemical plants, refineries) may have their own car inspectors and shop facilities right at the plant site. Such an arrangement can greatly expedite cleaning and repair work.
There are also standalone railcar repair shops. Sending a car to such a facility usually takes at least one additional day of transit time each way, this time is often longer. As an example, Procor's Edmonton tank car shop is only connected to CP, so if one of their cars is bad ordered while on CN it must first be interchanged to CP before going to the shop. Not a big, big deal in the grand scheme of things, but it does add to the transit time.
I don't see any reason why containers or trailers couldn't be cleaned at a truck & trailer wash facility.
It would be desirable to clean the animal hide service equipment immediately after it is unloaded if it is to be used for any other freight.
greyhounds zugmann How do you get the animal stink out of the curtains? Do they hold smell? The curtain sides are made of impenetrable material (some kind of plastic?) that keeps the cargo protected from the elements. The yucky, smelly stuff should wash off them just as it washes off the metal floor.
zugmann How do you get the animal stink out of the curtains? Do they hold smell?
And what happens when the odor doesn't get washed out despite the action described and the next shipper refuses to accept the car.
greyhounds BaltACD Not at truckstops. OK, why can't the intermodal containers be washed out at truckstops?
BaltACD Not at truckstops.
I am talking about railcars.
BaltACD greyhounds BaltACD Not at truckstops. OK, why can't the intermodal containers be washed out at truckstops? I am talking about railcars.
I was recently reading US Grant's autobiography. He describes in pungent detail the horrible, lingering stench of the tannery business. Anyone planning to use a container or railcar better plan on their being dedicated to that usage alone.
charlie hebdoI was recently reading US Grant's autobiography. He describes in pungent detail the horrible, lingering stench of the tannery business. Anyone planning to use a container or railcar better plan on their being dedicated to that usage alone.
So, are we to be governed by what a tannery smelled like 170 years ago?
If the truckers can clean out and get a return load so can a railroad. If the truckers have to return empty they're a sitting duck and a railroad can easily take the freight and revenue.
greyhounds charlie hebdo I was recently reading US Grant's autobiography. He describes in pungent detail the horrible, lingering stench of the tannery business. Anyone planning to use a container or railcar better plan on their being dedicated to that usage alone. So, are we to be governed by what a tannery smelled like 170 years ago? If the truckers can clean out and get a return load so can a railroad. If the truckers have to return empty they're a sitting duck and a railroad can easily take the freight and revenue.
charlie hebdo I was recently reading US Grant's autobiography. He describes in pungent detail the horrible, lingering stench of the tannery business. Anyone planning to use a container or railcar better plan on their being dedicated to that usage alone.
Have you been in contact with hide haulers?
Here's our answers to shipping hides
Also: https://www.gard.no/Content/24352680/CINS_GuidelinesHidesSkins.pdf
With pictures!
SD60MAC9500 Here's our answers to shipping hides
"Heating may occur if insufficient ventilation is provided. Loaded containers should not be exposed to direct sunlight or heat as this will lead to heating and heavy damage."
The article refers to containers in ships. COFC in shade?
I can see where something like this might work in my neck of the woods. What other traffic besides dead animal parts are there in the area that could be used as freight out?
charlie hebdo SD60MAC9500 Here's our answers to shipping hides "Heating may occur if insufficient ventilation is provided. Loaded containers should not be exposed to direct sunlight or heat as this will lead to heating and heavy damage." The article refers to containers in ships. COFC in shade?
Our tarpside container will have venting drawing cooler air inside and pushing warm air out. The container will be a flatrack design with a composite or wood floor. In practice a tarpside would have cooler temps to transport hides than a all steel box.
The question remains - How much revenue can be derived from hides versus how much it costs to be in the business.
Since we have a boxcar thread, I figured I'd ask in here rather than make a dedicated thread. I've been wondering lately why the Railbox reporting mark (RBOX) seems to be disappearing in favor of TBOX and FBOX (And I think I've seen at least one other variant). What do the different marks signify?
Murphy SidingI can see where something like this might work in my neck of the woods. What other traffic besides dead animal parts are there in the area that could be used as freight out?
BaltACDThe question remains - How much revenue can be derived from hides versus how much it costs to be in the business.
I've answered that question. Do you understand "Marginal Costs?"
greyhounds BaltACD The question remains - How much revenue can be derived from hides versus how much it costs to be in the business. I've answered that question. Do you understand "Marginal Costs?"
BaltACD The question remains - How much revenue can be derived from hides versus how much it costs to be in the business.
Do you understand loss?
BaltACDDo you understand loss?
Yes, but apparently you don't. Did you ever take and pass an accounting or economics course?
I hate to be this blunt, but you just don't understand this stuff.
BackshopYou never answered my question---does the receiver of the hides have rail access and how far away are they?
We're talking about intermodal containers, so rail access doesn't matter one bit.
There are various potential receivers so I can't give you an answer on distance. But, "How far away from what?"
Leo_Ames Since we have a boxcar thread, I figured I'd ask in here rather than make a dedicated thread. I've been wondering lately why the Railbox reporting mark (RBOX) seems to be disappearing in favor of TBOX and FBOX (And I think I've seen at least one other variant). What do the different marks signify?
My speculation based on about a decade of switching them.
RBOX = 50' standard height. Single door, usually sliding.
TBOX = 60' to 65' hi cube. Dual plug doors.
FBOX = 50' hi cube. Single plug door.
Is the other variation TOBX? These cars seem to have been acquired secondhand from other owners, as they seem to have been recently relettered. All the ones I've seen meet the same specs as the TBOX cars.
The larger cars with plug doors have become the new standard boxcar size, so the RBOX cars are disappearing as age catches up with them.
The GONX mark (RailGons) was still being applied to new cars as of a few years ago.
SD70DudeIs the other variation TOBX? These cars seem to have been acquired secondhand from other owners, as they seem to have been recently relettered. All the ones I've seen meet the same specs as the TBOX cars.
ABOX. Those have a sliding door plus a smaller plug door.
Back to the original question, sidestepping the "smelly hides".
Fred M CainDoes anybody know if North American railroads – or anybody really – plans to buy more boxcars?
Greenbrier has two boxcars available for order:
https://www.gbrx.com/manufacturing/north-america-rail/boxcars/
And in Greenbrier's 2021 Q1 earnings report, the CEO said “…we see strength in boxcars, probably including insulated boxcar.”
And the COO said "...I would say, here in North America, we've had a nice mix of order types, car types and order in the first quarter. I'd say there was probably a fairly more sizable chunk of boxcars, and some tank cars..."
Now, I've never been one to trust earnings calls, but that is what they said.
Sean
HO Scale CSX Modeler
greyhounds OK, let’s try to clean this up. First, hides can be moved in containers without destroying the ability of those containers to handle other freight. Please view this YouTube of an interview with the head of the Tyson Hides and Tannery Division. Note that he’s talking about supplying “Wet Blues.” (Tyson hides out of Dakota City, NE were what we were talking about. Tyson now has the capacity to process 6,000 head of cattle per workday at Dakota City.) Tyson Foods: The tanning industry will continue to consolidate - YouTube Now please view this document provided by Zugmann. https://www.gard.no/Content/24352680/CINS_GuidelinesHidesSkins.pdf Note paragraphs 1.3 and 3.2. “Wet Blues” are the hide type Tyson sells and ships. They require no special container preparation. They’re like any other palatized load. They’re not a special problem. Some people posting here are stuck in the past. Things do change. A special “Good Lord” to Charlie Hebdo for his comments about shipping hides in the shade. The hides are produced and shipped today without being in the shade. This freight moves long distances, and it should move on the railroads. It’s not the rail technology that’s failing. It’s these antiquated concepts held by people living in the past that drive freight off the trains. This should have been a simple "Get the Freight and Revenue" situation. Instead it turned in to a fight over an obsolete belief.
Perhaps if you actually had read my post, you would see it was a quotation from the article which was dealing at length with technical aspects of shipping various animal hides in containers. Instead you engage in snippy attacks on anyone on this thread with the temerity to raise questions and do little more than sloganeering.
greyhounds BaltACD Do you understand loss? Yes, but apparently you don't. Did you ever take and pass an accounting or economics course? I hate to be this blunt, but you just don't understand this stuff.
BaltACD Do you understand loss?
You don't really address the questions at hand about the costs. Instead you attack BALT's credentials. Why do you assume he never studied those subjects or more importantly, never used them in his career? In your transportation masters program, we can assume you had some coursework in those departments. How far really?
Others on here had some (like me, two undergrad econ and two accountancy classes at UI) and others with many, like our resident accountant, JPS.
It's sometimes easy to tell when someone retires and feels the need to remain relevant...
charlie hebdo greyhounds BaltACD Do you understand loss? Yes, but apparently you don't. Did you ever take and pass an accounting or economics course? I hate to be this blunt, but you just don't understand this stuff. You don't really address the questions at hand about the costs. Instead you attack BALT's credentials. Why do you assume he never studied those subjects or more importantly, never used them in his career? In your transportation masters program, we can assume you had some coursework in those departments. How far really? Others on here had some (like me, two undergrad econ and two accountancy classes at UI) and others with many, like our resident accountant, JPS.
I have had a number of Economics and Accounting courses at a variety of institutions of higher learning culminating in a Bachelors of Business Administration degree with specialization in marketing and transportation management. I also understand reality.
BaltACDI also understand reality.
That's really the core of it. Back in the day of entrepreneurial ownership, you might have gotten someone excited with the marginal-cost presentation, punctuated by the opportunity to "stick it to the truckers".
Stockholders and institutional investors are not swayed by emotion. They are going to say "what do you mean that this new business cannot pay it's proportionate share of real costs, yet still you feel it worth going after?"
BaltACD charlie hebdo greyhounds BaltACD Do you understand loss? Yes, but apparently you don't. Did you ever take and pass an accounting or economics course? I hate to be this blunt, but you just don't understand this stuff. You don't really address the questions at hand about the costs. Instead you attack BALT's credentials. Why do you assume he never studied those subjects or more importantly, never used them in his career? In your transportation masters program, we can assume you had some coursework in those departments. How far really? Others on here had some (like me, two undergrad econ and two accountancy classes at UI) and others with many, like our resident accountant, JPS. I have had a number of Economics and Accounting courses at a variety of institutions of higher learning culminating in a Bachelors of Business Administration degree with specialization in marketing and transportation management. I also understand reality.
Exactly. Likely some others had formal study and/or real world experience. He is not the only member who understands the concept of marginal revenue but doesn't make it the be all, end all.
BaltACD have had a number of Economics and Accounting courses at a variety of institutions of higher learning culminating in a Bachelors of Business Administration degree with specialization in marketing and transportation management. I also understand reality.
1) Do we now have agreement that hides, particularly “Wet Blues”, can be hauled in containers without destroying the containers’ usefulness to move other products?
2) Why are you so adamantly opposed to hauling this freight by rail?
3) Do you agree that it is impossible to determine the cost of moving any one load by rail because so many rail costs are “Joint” and can only be applied to any one load by arbitrary allocation?
4) Do you agree that because of the joint cost issue how much a railroad “Makes” on any one load is impossible to determine?
5) Do you agree that it is the marginal revenue vs marginal cost (as can be known) difference that determines whether the railroad should seek the additional loads?
6) Do you agree that the value of the commodity has little or nothing to do with establishing freight rates?
7) Do you have any evidence to show that a railroad doesn’t have a cost advantage over trucking at 800 miles or so? (I'll contend it's a lot less than 800 miles.)
charlie hebdoYou don't really address the questions at hand about the costs. Instead you attack BALT's credentials. Why do you assume he never studied those subjects or more importantly, never used them in his career? In your transportation masters program, we can assume you had some coursework in those departments. How far really? Others on here had some (like me, two undergrad econ and two accountancy classes at UI) and others with many, like our resident accountant, JPS.
I've decided to answer this.
First, I deny attacking Balt's credentials. I ask. I wanted to know if he understood marginal costs/revenue.
Second, I did answer his question as best I could. I provided a SWAG about the revenue which I SWAGED at $2.59 per competing highway mile. I also explained the impossibility of accurately determining "The Cost" of any individual rail shipment. This impossibility makes it further impossible to determine how much a railroad "Makes" on any particular shipment.
The railroads can haul hides without ruining their equipment. Just like the truckers. The freight charges on hides should be at, or near, the same as other intermodal freight. What's the problem?
Balt adamantly fought the hide traffic concept. I see this as all too typical of railroad people who just fight business development and growth. For no discernible reason.
greyhounds charlie hebdo You don't really address the questions at hand about the costs. Instead you attack BALT's credentials. Why do you assume he never studied those subjects or more importantly, never used them in his career? In your transportation masters program, we can assume you had some coursework in those departments. How far really? Others on here had some (like me, two undergrad econ and two accountancy classes at UI) and others with many, like our resident accountant, JPS. I've decided to answer this. First, I deny attacking Balt's credentials. I ask. I wanted to know if he understood marginal costs/revenue. Second, I did answer his question as best I could. I provided a SWAG about the revenue which I SWAGED at $2.59 per competing highway mile. I also explained the impossibility of accurately determining "The Cost" of any individual rail shipment. This impossibility makes it further impossible to determine how much a railroad "Makes" on any particular shipment. The railroads can haul hides without ruining their equipment. Just like the truckers. The freight charges on hides should be at, or near, the same as other intermodal freight. What's the problem? Balt adamantly fought the hide traffic concept. I see this as all too typical of railroad people who just fight business development and growth. For no discernible reason.
charlie hebdo You don't really address the questions at hand about the costs. Instead you attack BALT's credentials. Why do you assume he never studied those subjects or more importantly, never used them in his career? In your transportation masters program, we can assume you had some coursework in those departments. How far really? Others on here had some (like me, two undergrad econ and two accountancy classes at UI) and others with many, like our resident accountant, JPS.
The hides and cars that hauled them that I PERSONALLY witnessed in the late 1960's ruined the cars and the olfactory senses of people they passed. The hides were not 'shrink wrapped' in plastic as that form of packaging had yet to be developed. As I stated, in the pre-EPA World, smell and enviornmental destruction was just the normal way of doing business.
Thankfully times have changed.
greyhoundsI see this as all too typical of railroad people who just fight business development and growth. For no discernible reason.
Sometimes people with many overly optimistic ideas need to be grounded once in a while. Besides, if the idea is good, it should have no problem facing a few questions. Sometimes those in the glass towers overlook concerns (or don't even think of them) that are blatantly obvious to those outside.*
* I mean, if we're going to turn this into broad generalizations.
If the trailers aren't properly cleaned, how many times is a shipper going to reject them before they get ticked off and just hire their own trucks? Then you're left with stinky trailers with no backhauls.
If it's a given that someone is determined to ship hides via modular container, I can see no good reason why a railroad should not go after the transportation aspect. Let the customer wrangle out the details on the container.
There are always reasons why something won't work? The question to ask is, what can be done to make it work?
Convicted One If it's a given that someone is determined to ship hides via modular container, I can see no good reason why a railroad should not go after the transportation aspect. Let the customer wrangle out the details on the container.
I would opine that the railroad is actually a small part of this - someone has to obtain a suitable container, load it, and present it to the railroad for transport to the desired destination, where someone has to receive it, take it where they want to unload it, and deal with the results.
In that respect, it's no different from any other commodity. Heck, you could do that with your household goods if you were moving a great distance. All you need is a broker to make the necessary arrangements.
The one variable of any consequence is how long this will take vs what would be acceptable for the commodity at hand.
tree68 Convicted One If it's a given that someone is determined to ship hides via modular container, I can see no good reason why a railroad should not go after the transportation aspect. Let the customer wrangle out the details on the container. I would opine that the railroad is actually a small part of this - someone has to obtain a suitable container, load it, and present it to the railroad for transport to the desired destination, where someone has to receive it, take it where they want to unload it, and deal with the results. In that respect, it's no different from any other commodity. Heck, you could do that with your household goods if you were moving a great distance. All you need is a broker to make the necessary arrangements. The one variable of any consequence is how long this will take vs what would be acceptable for the commodity at hand.
With PSR's skletonizing of RR Marketing organizations in the name of OR - you won't see railroads seeking hides or any other kind of trailer/container business. Whatever they get will be from ocean carriers or 3rd party logistics consolidators.
Railroad thinking in PSR is 'Give us the box, we will haul it', what happens on either end is up to the Shipper/Consignee and whatever drayage they contract.
Well, what I was thinking ....if there already are 20(+/-) containers of hides per month headed from the central US to Asia via the port of LA, there is no reason why the railroads shouldn't relish snagging the domestic leg of that transport. You're not going to beat the trucks on speed, so that pretty much governs your sales pitch.
It's never going to be a huge segment, so as we used to say of such limited potential that it's only worth reaching so far for. We also used to say there is little point competing with a fool, you'll chase him into the poor house trying to snag his business.
BaltACD...or 3rd party logistics consolidators.
This is why I suggested that all the shipper needs to do is offer the can to the railroad at the appropriate facility. As you say - the railroad isn't going to come looking for it.
GrampThere are always reasons why something won't work? The question to ask is, what can be done to make it work?
Time machine?
I don't know the answers but these are relevant questions which must be asked.
1. Domestic shipments of animal hides currently. Do trucks use dedicated containers or trailers, back hauling with other loads or empty?
2. Would the rails back haul with a different commodity? If so, how expensive is cleaning satisfactorily?
3. The cost of cleaning or of having dedicated, one-way containers. Doesn't this change the marginal cost v revenue equation substantially?
4. Can the rails avoid/prevent the spoilage problems to the cargo mentioned earlier?
zugmannSometimes people with many overly optimistic ideas need to be grounded once in a while. Besides, if the idea is good, it should have no problem facing a few questions. Sometimes those in the glass towers overlook concerns (or don't even think of them) that are blatantly obvious to those outside.
Here's another question:
Is lumber currently being shipped in curtain-side trailers on flatcars?
zugmannIs lumber currently being shipped in curtain-side trailers on flatcars?
Not that I know of.
That doesn't mean it can't be so shipped.
greyhoundsThat doesn't mean it can't be so shipped.
I'm just curious about tiedowns. I've seen more than one boxcar of lumber get transloaded due to shifting in transit.
Esp now with the price of lumber. I'm sure the lumber dealers are a little more aware/concerned of damages in transportation than they were a year ago. Murphy Siding?
zugmannI'm just curious about tiedowns. I've seen more than one boxcar of lumber get transloaded due to shifting in transit.
Well, shifted loads happen.
I'd have to get an engineer or two involved to work out the load securement. I see it as a problem to be solved, not a barrier.
Strapping lumber in a tarpside using nylon straps is the norm. From my experience I always put a twist (spiral) in the strap as opposed to leaving it flat. This eliminates any slack that might develop down the road. Shouldn't be a problem in IM service with reduced slack all purpose spine cars.
SD60MAC9500Strapping lumber in a tarpside using nylon straps is the norm. From my experience I always put a twist (spiral) in the strap as opposed to leaving it flat. This eliminates any slack that might develop down the road. Shouldn't be a problem in IM service with reduced slack all purpose spine cars.
Saw a video on YouTube - a 2 inch ratchet strap twisted has the same breaking strength as a flat one. A twisted strap won't audibly vibrate at speed in the airstream like a flat strap will.
zugmann greyhounds That doesn't mean it can't be so shipped. I'm just curious about tiedowns. I've seen more than one boxcar of lumber get transloaded due to shifting in transit. Esp now with the price of lumber. I'm sure the lumber dealers are a little more aware/concerned of damages in transportation than they were a year ago. Murphy Siding?
greyhounds That doesn't mean it can't be so shipped.
Murphy SidingWe get semi-loads of lumber, plywood & OSB in curtain vans. To my knowledge, they don't travel on trains. The units are always tied down with nylon straps and sometimes they shift around. I'd be concerned with loads shifting due to slack action or during loading / unloading on a rail car. Does the equipment that does the loading/ unloading keep the trailer level, or do you run the risk of playing 52 card pick-up with 1050 sheets of OSB? Add Quote to your Post
Hides have been shipped in containers (refrigerated, ocean boxes) before. No reason there couldn't be domestic moves.
Lumber moves in containers. I don't remember if it was domestic or export.
The problem isn't with equipment. It's that railroads don't go out of their way to find freight to haul, intermodal or car load. Uncle Pete a while back was crowing about their new marketing department and how they were now focusing on growth. They were getting loads, mostly intermodal, but it was really more of the low hanging fruit they want. The stuff that's easy, doesn't cost much to handle.
As long has they worry more about what the cost of handling any potential business is and how it affects the OR instead of how much cash they could be putting in their pockets, they'll leave most freight to others.
jeffhergertHides have been shipped in containers (refrigerated, ocean boxes) before. No reason there couldn't be domestic moves. Lumber moves in containers. I don't remember if it was domestic or export. The problem isn't with equipment. It's that railroads don't go out of their way to find freight to haul, intermodal or car load. Uncle Pete a while back was crowing about their new marketing department and how they were now focusing on growth. They were getting loads, mostly intermodal, but it was really more of the low hanging fruit they want. The stuff that's easy, doesn't cost much to handle. As long has they worry more about what the cost of handling any potential business is and how it affects the OR instead of how much cash they could be putting in their pockets, they'll leave most freight to others. Jeff
PSR's effect has been to eviserate the concept of Marketing in railroads trying to attract business. The only business desired is that which walks up to the door, fully formed, that does not increase any of the cost metrics within the business.
That will remain until some other 'plan' strikes Wall Street's fancy for operating the industry.
greyhounds Murphy Siding We get semi-loads of lumber, plywood & OSB in curtain vans. To my knowledge, they don't travel on trains. The units are always tied down with nylon straps and sometimes they shift around. I'd be concerned with loads shifting due to slack action or during loading / unloading on a rail car. Does the equipment that does the loading/ unloading keep the trailer level, or do you run the risk of playing 52 card pick-up with 1050 sheets of OSB? Add Quote to your Post OK, after you’ve done all possible analysis, all possible computer simulations, dealt with all the “NO, it won’t work” from the operating folks, and had the engineers design a load restraint system, it would be time for a test. Do not make a major commitment to this concept without test marketing the concept. That’s a quite common business practice, except in railroading. You’ll only need five curtain side containers and one five platform spine car. Get one lumber source and preferably five different lumber receivers to try it. As an incentive tell them “This load is on us.” And make that so. Fly, in one of your corporate jets (They’ll like that.), representatives of the five receivers, the marketing person on the hook for even thinking of such a fool idea, the engineer(s) who designed the load restrain system, and the operating person who was the loudest “NO” to the origin. Show them a good time. Take them fly fishing, to a round of golf, whatever. On an appointed day, with all concerned in attendance, have an existing local spot the spine car, with the containers on board, at the shipper. Everyone concerned should watch the lumber being loaded and secured to the containers while they are on the spine car. Secure the curtains in their proper position. On the following day have the local pick up the spine car. Move it to where you can put it on an IM train and then move it to the intermodal terminal nearest to the receivers’ locations. Use your business cars. All concerned should be in a business car adjacent to, or near, the lumber loads. Have the engineer(s) check the loads whenever possible. Deliver the loads and seek honest feedback from the shipper and receivers. Adjust as necessary and possible. Repeat with different shippers and receivers. You’ll develop a good workable system that will put additional revenue loads on existing trains. That’s money on the bottom line. Or, it's an "Oh Well". We'll try the next thing. But you can't win unless you try.
Murphy Siding We get semi-loads of lumber, plywood & OSB in curtain vans. To my knowledge, they don't travel on trains. The units are always tied down with nylon straps and sometimes they shift around. I'd be concerned with loads shifting due to slack action or during loading / unloading on a rail car. Does the equipment that does the loading/ unloading keep the trailer level, or do you run the risk of playing 52 card pick-up with 1050 sheets of OSB? Add Quote to your Post
I'm still trying to figure out how (and why), a thread about boxcars has turned into one about stinky hides in trailers or containers.
Murphy Siding greyhounds Murphy Siding We get semi-loads of lumber, plywood & OSB in curtain vans. To my knowledge, they don't travel on trains. The units are always tied down with nylon straps and sometimes they shift around. I'd be concerned with loads shifting due to slack action or during loading / unloading on a rail car. Does the equipment that does the loading/ unloading keep the trailer level, or do you run the risk of playing 52 card pick-up with 1050 sheets of OSB? Add Quote to your Post OK, after you’ve done all possible analysis, all possible computer simulations, dealt with all the “NO, it won’t work” from the operating folks, and had the engineers design a load restraint system, it would be time for a test. Do not make a major commitment to this concept without test marketing the concept. That’s a quite common business practice, except in railroading. You’ll only need five curtain side containers and one five platform spine car. Get one lumber source and preferably five different lumber receivers to try it. As an incentive tell them “This load is on us.” And make that so. Fly, in one of your corporate jets (They’ll like that.), representatives of the five receivers, the marketing person on the hook for even thinking of such a fool idea, the engineer(s) who designed the load restrain system, and the operating person who was the loudest “NO” to the origin. Show them a good time. Take them fly fishing, to a round of golf, whatever. On an appointed day, with all concerned in attendance, have an existing local spot the spine car, with the containers on board, at the shipper. Everyone concerned should watch the lumber being loaded and secured to the containers while they are on the spine car. Secure the curtains in their proper position. On the following day have the local pick up the spine car. Move it to where you can put it on an IM train and then move it to the intermodal terminal nearest to the receivers’ locations. Use your business cars. All concerned should be in a business car adjacent to, or near, the lumber loads. Have the engineer(s) check the loads whenever possible. Deliver the loads and seek honest feedback from the shipper and receivers. Adjust as necessary and possible. Repeat with different shippers and receivers. You’ll develop a good workable system that will put additional revenue loads on existing trains. That’s money on the bottom line. Or, it's an "Oh Well". We'll try the next thing. But you can't win unless you try. Sorry, but you lost me. Wine and dine and promise the world probably got you somewhere 40 years ago. Shock and awe doesn't work anymore. Maybe it never did. The way I see it, you would develop a plan. Tell people what you can do for them. Sell them on the idea. Then deliver what you promised and expand the program. Corporate jets, golfing, fishing, booze, and steaks...whatever. Rodney Dangerfield said his parents used to tie a porkchop around his neck just so the dog would play with him. I see parallels.
Sorry, but you lost me. Wine and dine and promise the world probably got you somewhere 40 years ago. Shock and awe doesn't work anymore. Maybe it never did. The way I see it, you would develop a plan. Tell people what you can do for them. Sell them on the idea. Then deliver what you promised and expand the program. Corporate jets, golfing, fishing, booze, and steaks...whatever. Rodney Dangerfield said his parents used to tie a porkchop around his neck just so the dog would play with him. I see parallels.
I'll agree with Murphy on this one. Railroads would be best to give a trial period. You know something similiar too try us for 30 days before commiting. If you have a service product give them a trial period. Show up to the potential customer lay out your service product plan (SPP we'll call it) to entice the potential customer into becoming a long term customer. The SPP will include all pre contractual agreements, and contract agreements upon signing authorization of a long term contract. Give them free switches for a period of time along with free demurrage charges. Show the customer you can provide consistency.
Backshop I'm still trying to figure out how (and why), a thread about boxcars has turned into one about stinky hides in trailers or containers.
Threads morph. At least in this case, at least we're still talking about things that can be carried by trains - and recall that the hides started out in boxcars in this discussion.
jeffhergertHides have been shipped in containers (refrigerated, ocean boxes) before. No reason there couldn't be domestic moves.
That partially answered my question. The remaining portion is "Can that container be cleaned sufficiently to transport other sensitive freight and how costly is that?" Ken seems to dismiss details such as cost in his zeal to grab new freight customers.
Murphy SidingSorry, but you lost me. Wine and dine and promise the world probably got you somewhere 40 years ago. Shock and awe doesn't work anymore. Maybe it never did. The way I see it, you would develop a plan. Tell people what you can do for them. Sell them on the idea. Then deliver what you promised and expand the program. Corporate jets, golfing, fishing, booze, and steaks...whatever. Rodney Dangerfield said his parents used to tie a porkchop around his neck just so the dog would play with him. I see parallels.
OK, you're right. But it would have been fun.
Edit to add: "Lumber futures for May delivery ended Friday at $1,500.50 per thousand board feet, an all-time high and roughly four times the typical price this time of year. Futures have risen by the daily maximum allowed by the Chicago Mercantile Exchange during nine of the last 17 trading sessions."
From today's Wall Street Journal.
If the demand for lumber is off the chart, so is the demand for transportation vehicles to move the lumber.
BackshopI'm still trying to figure out how (and why), a thread about boxcars has turned into one about stinky hides in trailers or containers.
Boxcars, intermodal containers, and over the road trailers are simply different tools for doing the same thing. They add time and place utility to a product. They get it to where it's needed when it's needed. They are interchangeable.
The market will select the most efficient such tool for a particular instance.
The hides came in when it came into question what the containers could move out of the Sioux Falls area.
This looks like a interesting tool to load lumber.
rdamon This looks like a interesting tool to load lumber.
The rollers?
Another system of quickly loading containers with lumber.
Loading curtain-side/flat-rack containers that never come off spine cars would not work as well. You'd have to strap down and stabilize the load since there's no structure provided by the walls.
The whole reason center-beam flatcars exist is to provide the stabilizing structure with the central truss (otherwise other pieces of wood dunnage need to be used as stabilizers) and winches that are part of the car strap the bundles down instead of having to use a whole bunch of strapping to unitize the load.
Flat-rack/curtain side containers is a huge step backwards... I mean, lumber is loaded onto regular flat-bed trucks for local distribution, and accordingly strapped down etc. but loading directly onto spine cars instead of centerbeams just reduces the volume of wood you're shipping per railcar unit.
And you want to transport nasty, smelly hides in essentially open containers? No one is going to want that travelling anywhere near them.
cv_acrAnother system of quickly loading containers with lumber. Loading curtain-side/flat-rack containers that never come off spine cars would not work as well. You'd have to strap down and stabilize the load since there's no structure provided by the walls. The whole reason center-beam flatcars exist is to provide the stabilizing structure with the central truss (otherwise other pieces of wood dunnage need to be used as stabilizers) and winches that are part of the car strap the bundles down instead of having to use a whole bunch of strapping to unitize the load. Flat-rack/curtain side containers is a huge step backwards... I mean, lumber is loaded onto regular flat-bed trucks for local distribution, and accordingly strapped down etc. but loading directly onto spine cars instead of centerbeams just reduces the volume of wood you're shipping per railcar unit. And you want to transport nasty, smelly hides in essentially open containers? No one is going to want that travelling anywhere near them.
Is there a C-Unloader? Shoving stuff into a box is the easy part of the equation. Murphy's end ?????
cv_acrLoading curtain-side/flat-rack containers that never come off spine cars would not work as well. You'd have to strap down and stabilize the load since there's no structure provided by the walls. The whole reason center-beam flatcars exist is to provide the stabilizing structure with the central truss (otherwise other pieces of wood dunnage need to be used as stabilizers) and winches that are part of the car strap the bundles down instead of having to use a whole bunch of strapping to unitize the load. Flat-rack/curtain side containers is a huge step backwards...
He goes on.
1) The “Nasty, smelly hides” are not, in fact, “Nasty, smelly hides.” They’re “Wet Blues” which are shipped shrink wrapped and palatalized. They are no special problem to transport.
2) The thread started when a lumber receiver expressed concern about there being enough boxcars to move the lumber. There is a current spike in the demand for lumber. The sawmills cannot produce to the increased demand. This has driven the price of lumber way high.
As the demand for lumber has spiked, so has the demand for vehicles, truck or rail, to move the lumber.
3) It’s not financially wise to buy a long-term asset, such as a boxcar or center beam, to meet a short-term demand spike. Nobody knows how long the increased demand will continue.
4) Lumber is shipped long distances by over the road trucking. Yes, they have to tie it down. The truckers seem to deal with that OK.
5) Center beam rail cars are fine if the receiver desires to get 90+ tons of lumber at one time. It’s often better for them to order in smaller quantities that are now moved by over the road trucking. These smaller lots improve their cash flow and reduce their inventory carrying costs. It all depends on how fast they can sell how much lumber. Curtain side containers would facilitate moving these smaller lots by rail.
6) Center beams go back to the sawmill empty. Curtain side containers can carry a return load.
7) Curtain sides can be repurposed when the lumber demand spike ends. Center beam cars would go into storage and create red ink.
BaltACD Is there a C-Unloader? Shoving stuff into a box is the easy part of the equation. Murphy's end ?????
Step 1: back up to the dock really, really, really fast...
cv_acr Another system of quickly loading containers with lumber. Loading curtain-side/flat-rack containers that never come off spine cars would not work as well. You'd have to strap down and stabilize the load since there's no structure provided by the walls. The whole reason center-beam flatcars exist is to provide the stabilizing structure with the central truss (otherwise other pieces of wood dunnage need to be used as stabilizers) and winches that are part of the car strap the bundles down instead of having to use a whole bunch of strapping to unitize the load. Flat-rack/curtain side containers is a huge step backwards... I mean, lumber is loaded onto regular flat-bed trucks for local distribution, and accordingly strapped down etc. but loading directly onto spine cars instead of centerbeams just reduces the volume of wood you're shipping per railcar unit. And you want to transport nasty, smelly hides in essentially open containers? No one is going to want that travelling anywhere near them.
Far from quick.. Shipping forest products in a domestic tarpside container would be a step forward. In addition it wouldn't need expensive contraptions like that to load the containers.. Just use the exsiting forklifts without any modification or fancy tools. At 6:25 in the video who doesn't clean snow off product before it's loaded? ..
Looking at the video you posted these appear to be export loads going to or at the Port of Prince Rupert.
Probably not much, have only seen a few around in recent years. I love them because this was the type of car I saw most in the Frisco yard where Dad worked. Tank cars was the other. I would look for the logos on them and figure out which RR they belonged to. Parents and I would watch for Frisco ones on our trips. We saw one at Rawlins or Rock Springs, WY, that was the farthest from home we saw. And learned their nickname was "sidedoor Pullman", because of the hobos catching a ride. Sometimes the yard bulls would find one and either hold him to be arrested or run him off the property.
Convicted Onecentral US to Asia via the port of LA
Russell
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