They did not try to slow down, but I wonder what the rules require in a case like that. They said crews cannot always stop safely. I don't think stopping would have been necessary. But what determines whether the train can be stopped safely? How safe is safely? Would they have broken a rule if they slowed down? Would a brake application have jeopardized safety?
Animal strikes are an unfortunate daily occurrence on the railroad. This guy was just stupid enough to film it and publicly post it. They'll probably get disciplined/fired for using a personal electronic device at work, not for hitting the Antelope.
While heavy braking might have made a bit of difference, I don't think they could have avoided all of them. And depending on the track profile, train makeup, and temperature such action by the crew could result in a train separation or significant delay while recharging the air brake system after coming to a stop.
Herds of Bighorn Sheep hang out on the track and inside a curved tunnel near Park Gate on CN's line through Jasper National Park, and on most days there are similar close calls. Fortunately the tunnel and curves are restricted to 25 mph, which conveniently is also the top speed of an unladen sheep. Some do get hit, especially if they are in the tunnel when a train arrives.
If I can I'll try to slow down, but on most occasions there is nothing we can do. I'm just not dumb enough to post video of it online.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
I know that some will get hit as normal routine, but what does the rules say about a situation like this one? You have an unusually large number of animals that are known to try to outrun an appraching danger rather than evade it. So it ought to be obvious that many animals will get killed. I would estimate that the crew would realize that they would hit the animals if they did not slow down. Why would the company be investigating it? For an engineer to video that, it almost seems like he must disagree with the practice, but has been told not to slow down to attempt to prevent animal strikes.
As I said, slowing down might not have made much difference in this case, and in most cases it won't. Shutting off the headlight and ringing the bell is usually enough to make deer and moose run, sheep and elk are more stubborn. So are bears, especially if they have found a rotting grain pile and have had 'a few too many'.
We are supposed to report all animal strikes that happen within the National Park, but most guys don't bother with mundane stuff like single deer, elk or sheep. A large event like this or a predator (especially the endangered Grizzly Bear) would definitely be reported.
If a radio collared bear, wolf, cougar or other animal is hit, the Park will know automatically.
Engineering forces and Park Wardens will try to remove most carcasses from the track, to avoid attracting even more predators. But outside the Park this isn't always done, and it is common to see a big flock of Ravens fighting with a Bald Eagle or Coyote over a carcass, whether it be on or off the track.
I suspect the Ravens and other scavengers have learned that 'scouting' along the track changes their odds of eating from if to when......
One of Al Krug's tales involve a collision with a horse at 60-ish MPH. A picture accompanying the tale showed not much left of the horse but oats, if you will.
I got a deer once that somehow avoided the front truck of the locomotive, tagging the rear truck (under the loco) instead. Mechanical wasn't happy, but the deer literally hit me, instead of the other way around.
We've hit several deer in the past, including that one.
I got a possum once with a locomotive - it was walking on the railhead. The crew on the other locomotive saw it (we were running with a loco on each end of the train) on the return trip. It was literally split in half...
There's only so much you can do...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
As stated in the news article Pronghorn have a difficult time in deep snow. If the snow was of minimal cover they would have no problem outrunning the train and getting off the RoW. Pronghorn can reach speeds of up to 60mph and sustain that speed for roughly 3-5 mins. This is unfortunate, but sometimes things happen outside of your control. Not to nitpick much. Pronghorn are not antelopes. They're actually a distinct member of the order Artiodactyla.
For all their speed, Pronghorn can't jump very well either, and became an endangered species out here during the early years of fencing. Canada actually had two national parks (both since abolished) dedicated to the preservation of the species.
Now barbed wire fences must have a smooth wire on the bottom and it must be a certain minimum height above the ground, so the antelope (as they are commonly called out here) can slide underneath it, just like deer do under railcars.
It is believed that the Pronghorn evolved its great speed to outrun the American Cheetah, which of course is now extinct.
Remember - the routes grain trains operate make a convenient feeding source for wildlife. Cars do leak their contents from time to time and with the record hauls of grain over the past several years wildlife thrives.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Remember - the routes grain trains operate make a convenient feeding source for wildlife. Cars do leak their contents from time to time and with the record hauls of grain over the past several years wildlife thrives.
I recall watching squirrels feasting on the Rochelle cam after a couple of grainers passed through. Could see the same phenomenon along then-highway-395 near Perris CA which paralleled an ATSF line that had a number of grain customers...back in the day.
Years back when I lived in Gillette Wyoming there were big herds antelope everywhere. One hard winter also had an overpopulation of antelope and also of jackrabbits. Both were mowed down in large herds by trains, trucks and cars. When I was a kid I lived in Alaska outside of Anchorage. Moose getting hit by trains, cars and trucks was very common. The trains had cow catcher pilots on the front that were called moose goosers.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
SD70Dude Fortunately the tunnel and curves are restricted to 25 mph, which conveniently is also the top speed of an unladen sheep.
Fortunately the tunnel and curves are restricted to 25 mph, which conveniently is also the top speed of an unladen sheep.
Are these African or European unladen sheep????
Couldn't resist....
SD70Dude For all their speed, Pronghorn can't jump very well either, and became an endangered species out here during the early years of fencing. Canada actually had two national parks (both since abolished) dedicated to the preservation of the species. Now barbed wire fences must have a smooth wire on the bottom and it must be a certain minimum height above the ground, so the antelope (as they are commonly called out here) can slide underneath it, just like deer do under railcars. It is believed that the Pronghorn evolved its great speed to outrun the American Cheetah, which of course is now extinct.
Erik_Mag SD70Dude Fortunately the tunnel and curves are restricted to 25 mph, which conveniently is also the top speed of an unladen sheep. Are these African or European unladen sheep???? Couldn't resist....
I guess every 'area/region/ terrain,etc' has its own hazards for the local faua? I have a friend who used tio reun a BNSF (trackage rights job) betwen Little Rock and Memphis. Aligators crossing were an issue for him... Now he runs[Illini/Saluki] between Chicago and Carbondale.... Deer are the problem there.
Trains can't stop for animals but maybe something can be done to keep herds away from the tracks. I don't know what that would look like, but some jurisdictions like BC have done some interesting stuff with animal crossings and highways.
SD70Dude I suspect the Ravens and other scavengers have learned that 'scouting' along the track changes their odds of eating from if to when......
I've seen something similar here at Bayview Junction. A couple of hawks would wait for a train to pass. In fact as the train rolls through the Junction (which is flanked by hills) the hawks take off and fly directly in front of the train as if to guide it.. sometimes the engineer would sound the horn as the hawks are that close.. once the train has cleared the Junction the hawks circle and gain altitude and then head back into the Junction where they pickup what ever animals had the misfortune of getting hit by the train. I've seen this happen a few times..
I've had more than a few cases of hawks repeatedly flying ahead of our trains, looking for what we scare out of hiding. We generally run 20-25 MPH, so we're not talking bullet train speeds, here.
Land, watch, fly ahead, repeat.
GoodtimingI don’t see any attempt at slowing down through the whole herd. Not good!
Realistically, I don’t think that would make any difference. If the horn doesn’t get them off the tracks, it makes no difference whether the train hits them at 40 mph or 39 mph. In addition, if the engineer slowed down every time there was an animal on the tracks, the trains would fall behind on schedules.
I thought that the suggestion to issue slow orders for the trains when herds were observed to be near the tracks was a reasonable compromise.
Simply dusting ones hands off and blaming it on "overpopulation" is myopic, imo.
Murphy SidingRealistically, I don’t think that would make any difference. If the horn doesn’t get them off the tracks, it makes no difference whether the train hits them at 40 mph or 39 mph. In addition, if the engineer slowed down every time there was an animal on the tracks, the trains would fall behind on schedules.
I think he was attempting a little dark humor about the herd failing to slow down.
Convicted One I thought that the suggestion to issue slow orders for the trains when herds were observed to be near the tracks was a reasonable compromise. Simply dusting ones hands off and blaming it on "overpopulation" is myopic, imo.
I think so too, although the train crews are limited in what they can do. But let's subsititute "rock slide" for "herd" and one can be sure that the railroad would implement measures to ensure trains don't run into fallen rock. Something more could be done I'm sure to protect wildlife without unduly affecting schedules.
Ulrich Convicted One I thought that the suggestion to issue slow orders for the trains when herds were observed to be near the tracks was a reasonable compromise. Simply dusting ones hands off and blaming it on "overpopulation" is myopic, imo. I think so too, although the train crews are limited in what they can do. But let's subsititute "rock slide" for "herd" and one can be sure that the railroad would implement measures to ensure trains don't run into fallen rock. Something more could be done I'm sure to protect wildlife without unduly affecting schedules.
I am surprised it took so long for someone to trot out the Darwin Award.
Murphy Siding Ulrich Convicted One I thought that the suggestion to issue slow orders for the trains when herds were observed to be near the tracks was a reasonable compromise. Simply dusting ones hands off and blaming it on "overpopulation" is myopic, imo. I think so too, although the train crews are limited in what they can do. But let's subsititute "rock slide" for "herd" and one can be sure that the railroad would implement measures to ensure trains don't run into fallen rock. Something more could be done I'm sure to protect wildlife without unduly affecting schedules. I don't want to sound like a heartless antelope killer, but should we then lower the speed limit on highways during those times as well? I bet a lot more animals are killed on roads than railroads. Would you have trains slow down for a whole winter when the antelope population gets big? Do they slow down only when there's a herd on the track? Or near the track? Or when there's a herd in the area? Whether we like it or not, this is Darwin's theory being played out. The antelpoe that get off the tracks when a train approaches are the ones who live another day.
I don't want to sound like a heartless antelope killer, but should we then lower the speed limit on highways during those times as well? I bet a lot more animals are killed on roads than railroads. Would you have trains slow down for a whole winter when the antelope population gets big? Do they slow down only when there's a herd on the track? Or near the track? Or when there's a herd in the area? Whether we like it or not, this is Darwin's theory being played out. The antelpoe that get off the tracks when a train approaches are the ones who live another day.
I've thought about this problem for a grand total of about 15 minutes, so I will be the first one to admit that I don't have all the answers or even one answer. But.. I believe that with some careful thought and planning something could be done that would be along the lines of a satisfactory outcome for both man and beast.
Here's an idea.. perhaps drones could be used to fly ahead of trains in areas where large animal herds have been known to congregate.. the drones would relay back to crews and to the train dispatch center.. " herd two miles ahead".. engineer may then apply the brakes and avoid killing a bunch of animals. Or perhaps better yet, drones could be used to shepard herds off the tracks and to safety. Good ideas or not, I'm sure we can do better than to simply run animals down.
Murphy SidingI don't want to sound like a heartless antelope killer, but should we then lower the speed limit on highways during those times as well? I bet a lot more animals are killed on roads than railroads. Would you have trains slow down for a whole winter when the antelope population gets big? Do they slow down only when there's a herd on the track?
I suspect that some of us find it a little less challenging to be sympathetic to wildlife than others do. "Share the planet" and I'll leave it at that.
UlrichHere's an idea.. perhaps drones could be used to fly ahead of trains in areas where large animal herds have been known to congregate.. the drones would relay back to crews and to the train dispatch center.. " herd two miles ahead".. engineer may then apply the brakes and avoid killing a bunch of animals. Or perhaps better yet, drones could be used to shepherd herds off the tracks and to safety.
I would suggest something additional, though: that some combination of animal-rights groups and directed personal funds appeals, perhaps including crowdsourcing, be used to pay the 'marginal cost' to provide, maintain, and run it. That might in turn defray some pro rata cost to provide the overall drone infrastructure or 'tip over' railroads into adopting some version of the technology.
I am not sure what effects get animals to move. Perhaps dust off the photic drivers from the '60s? Those would work well on herds of 'graffiti writers', too...
Deer hit my car once. Wife & I were camping in Brown Cty State Park in Indiana, I was driving at about 10 mph on the road from the campground and there was a car in front of me and a ranger behind. Herd of about six deer in field to the left of the road suddenly chose to go to the other side of the road. One struck my car right smack dab in the middle of my door. Door had a significant dent, and the deer was down on the pavement. We and the ranger got out of the vehicles and stood looking at the deer. I think we all knew to be afraid of its hooves. After about three or four minutes, the deer raised its head, looked around, stood up and bolted for the trees. Why a deer can't see a car, I don't know.
The other animal, train incident was on a trip on BC Rail. I was allowed to ride up front in the lead RDC with the engineer. After leaving Williams Bay for Prince George, we came upon a black bear on the tracks and it took off toward P.G. at a good clip. But we were doing better than 60 mph and I thought we were going to hit it. But fortunately, for it, and I think us, it veered off the roadbed about 20 feet before impact. Engineer said they don't get many.
Electroliner 1935Why a deer can't see a car, I don't know.
At one time I lived in an 'enclave' that was reached by driving over two very substantial little hills (likely raised in the New Madrid earthquake of 1811). As more houses were built, these summits were 'cut down' leaving fairly large "berms" at the crest, diminishing to level and then a slight fill in between. I was driving over the first of these hills when a substantial buck jumped from berm to berm RIGHT above headlight level, without any warning at all -- there was nothing, then my windshield was completely full of ruminant -- then a second later he was gone. He left small traces of blood and skin in one of the headlight surrounds, it was that close; had I been less than half a second further along he's have been transversely through the windshield, in what I suspect would have been an unsurvivable accident.
On two occasions I was driving over to the San Fernando Valley from Hollywood in fog, to come suddenly upon some local species of deer trotting along right in front of me. In neither case did I have full time to react and brake to a stop; in both cases I contacted the hindquarters lightly and they fell over ... only to get up and keep right along trotting in the road.
Electroliner 1935 Why a deer can't see a car, I don't know
Just a theory of mine, but geese are notoriously prone to getting hit by cars, as well.
Try to sneek up on a goose while you are on foot sometime.
I suspect it has something to do with the smooth movement on wheels being deceptive, where they are more accustomed to perceiving threat from an undulating gait.
Working as a boiler inspector in New York's Hudson valley years ago, I had to inspect the boiler at a rod and gun club near the Connecticut border. On the driveway were 4 big deer, just standing there. I had to honk the horn several times to get them to move. You should have seen the look on the club guy's face when I told him that I could have bagged one with my 3-cell Maglite.
Electroliner 1935Deer hit my car once.
Piker...
I've gotten four... Plus one we hit with our old rescue truck on the way back from a call.
A contractor was taking our fire department pumper to a test site for its annual pump test.
This is a "custom" apparatus, with the big, boxy cab.
I heard a report of a deer hit, just outside of our district, involving a fire truck, so I moseyed down for a looksee. It was ours.
The truck hit the deer mid-flight (the truck was doing the speed limit - 55). The collision damaged the warning lights above the headlights, the siren (in the grille), a windshield wiper, and even managed to chip the paint on the passenger side A post. The deer was that far off the ground.
I think the damage came in around at almost $10,000...
54light15On the driveway were 4 big deer, just standing there. I had to honk the horn several times to get them to move.
Many years ago, my father and I went hunting north of the Brooks Range in Alaska ... technically after Dall sheep, but note I said 'hunting', not 'shooting'. The proper technique to stalk these animals is interesting: their eyes are like little 8x telescopes and they're always carefully watching ... in fact they'll set lookouts to do that job, usually in prominent places. Consequently your recourse to get 'within range' is to come from somewhere unexpected -- for example, over the top of the sort of mountain associated with bighorn sheep, quietly and from downwind, and perhaps as many as 20 times per day -- this being August in the 'land of the midnight sun' the day started about 7 and ended with failing light well after midnight.
Now, there was one young ram that the guide and I observed early, right near where we made base camp. He had found a nifty promontory projecting out from a mountainside, where he had but to turn his head to see over 270 degrees of terrain, and -- he thought -- have plenty of time to detect potential predator approach. In fact he would sit up there cocky as hell, tracking you as you went down the valleys in the morning and came back at night.
By the last day of this my ankles had swollen to where I couldn't put my hands around either one, and we were returning on 'short final' when I realized there was a track up that mountain that would get me between the promontory and the 'rest of the world'. So I motioned to the guide to follow me -- he nervously repeating 'you're not going to shoot him, right?' (apparently a large cross-section of hunters affluent enough to handle a week there are prone to get red mist and take each other's shot no matter how long they've known a 'buddy', so everyone has to go alone). Up the track we went, until I came to cover behind a large rock -- from which I could see our young friend. I chambered a cartridge -- this producing yet another flurry from the guide -- carefully locked the bolt, and eased the safety off -- just to prove the threat was genuine. I then very ostentatiously pulled the bolt out of battery -- ears pricked up. Then I pulled the bolt back, hard, ejecting the cartridge which made a satisfying metallic clatter -- head turned to see. Then I closed the bolt on the empty chamber and 'click' pulled the trigger.... then stood up in full view. At this point he was up ... and discovered that to get off his promontory, he was going to have to walk past me. Which he proceeded to do ... slowly and carefully, looking at me with extremely big dark eyes. As he passed me I reached over and patted him on the flank and said, sternly, "don't you ever let this happen to you again".
What was most interesting, perhaps, was that he sidled past me, watching carefully, and disappeared off into the gloom ... never breaking stride, never scrambling suddenly once he was in safety; I think he knew.
I'd like to think he had a long and successful career with his own herd after that, not assuming that good position can make you complacent...
tree68 Electroliner 1935 Deer hit my car once. Piker... I've gotten four... Plus one we hit with our old rescue truck on the way back from a call. A contractor was taking our fire department pumper to a test site for its annual pump test. This is a "custom" apparatus, with the big, boxy cab. I heard a report of a deer hit, just outside of our district, involving a fire truck, so I moseyed down for a looksee. It was ours. The truck hit the deer mid-flight (the truck was doing the speed limit - 55). The collision damaged the warning lights above the headlights, the siren (in the grille), a windshield wiper, and even managed to chip the paint on the passenger side A post. The deer was that far off the ground. I think the damage came in around at almost $10,000...
Electroliner 1935 Deer hit my car once.
Don't know if they actually work - but I have put 'deer whistles' on my vehicles for the past 20 years - in driving, mostly at night, I have seen numerous deer both along Interstates and secondary roads.
When I had my 84 Dodge Daytona Turbo I discovered one deer that needed 'rain tires' I saw him, he saw me and put the brakes on - but he only stopped when he hit the side of the car and knocked off the passenger side mirror. Looked in the central mirror and he was shaking his head and walking away.
BaltACD Don't know if they actually work - but I have put 'deer whistles' on my vehicles for the past 20 years...
Don't know if they actually work - but I have put 'deer whistles' on my vehicles for the past 20 years...
I've never hit a deer, nor any other on-foot wild animal while driving. Never hit an oil tanker stopped straddling the road either.
I've read different things about the deer whistles. Some say they work, some don't. I also have them on our vehicles. (Saw a deer standing by the road coming home tonight.)
I've hit deer and other wild life, both with my vehicle and with the train. The last two vehicle accidents were the deer running into the side of us. One was damage that could be repaired, one totaled the vehicle.
A few years ago on the train, it was a Friday night and three nice bucks were out on the town. They were about to cross the tracks, one stopped the others didn't.
One afternoon we finished off a deer that had already been hit. It's back was broken and it couldn't move it's hind legs. It was trying to get up and off the tracks and couldn't. I hated what was about to happen, but I guess it was for the best.
One day leaving town approaching the river, I noticed a dead fawn between the rails on the adjacent track. A vulture was starting to eat it. When we went past it, I noticed mom was still standing off to the side, just watching. We go another mile and there is another dead fawn, with mom still watching and waiting.
We ran over a big turtle. It was high centered on the rail and I figured we might shove it off. Nope. We hit it. The next day coming back I saw it. A Half on each side of the rail. At least it was the first rail of four it needed to cross. It would've been worse if it was the last rail on it's journey.
Jeff
jeffhergert I've read different things about the deer whistles. Some say they work, some don't. I also have them on our vehicles.
I've read different things about the deer whistles. Some say they work, some don't. I also have them on our vehicles.
If I recall correctly, we once responded to a car vs deer accident. The young lady was quite upset, of course, and even moreso since she had the whistles...
jeffhergert We ran over a big turtle. It was high centered on the rail and I figured we might shove it off.
We ran over a big turtle. It was high centered on the rail and I figured we might shove it off.
Been there. Those big snappers are no match for a locomotive.
dwill49965 This links to a very disturbing video. I know freight trains can't stop on a dime, but in rewatching it several times, it doesn't even look like they tried to slow down (maybe it would have been fruitless anyway). My apologies if it has already been posted here, but I had a look at recent topics and didn't see it. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/cp-rail-video-train-runs-over-antelope-herd-1.5828740
This links to a very disturbing video. I know freight trains can't stop on a dime, but in rewatching it several times, it doesn't even look like they tried to slow down (maybe it would have been fruitless anyway).
My apologies if it has already been posted here, but I had a look at recent topics and didn't see it.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/cp-rail-video-train-runs-over-antelope-herd-1.5828740
It's not like they won't birth more. I could see if it was like the last herd in Canada but it's not and antelope are all over the United States as well.
Would blowing the horn have made any difference, since it might scare the pronghorn sheep?
Caldreamer
caldreamer Would blowing the horn have made any difference, since it might scare the pronghorn sheep? Caldreamer
They were blowing the horn and the animals were scared. But their main impluse is to stay in the shallow snow and try to outrun the train. So the only thing that would have likely prevented it was to slow down, reducing speed by about 20 mph. Otherwise the outcome was inevitable.
Euclid So the only thing that would have likely prevented it was to slow down, reducing speed by about 20 mph.
I have to wonder if the railroad has an official policy that would prohibit doing so? Where the engineer was forced to either hit the animals, or answer to disciplinary action?
Euclid caldreamer Would blowing the horn have made any difference, since it might scare the pronghorn sheep? Caldreamer They were blowing the horn and the animals were scared. But their main impluse is to stay in the shallow snow and try to outrun the train. So the only thing that would have likely prevented it was to slow down, reducing speed by about 20 mph. Otherwise the outcome was inevitable.
Murphy Siding How do you propose they reduce speed by about 20 mph?
By shutting off power and applying brakes.
Got a call from my manager a few years ago...
"Wayne, I need you to take some of Steve's service calls."
"Why? What happened?"
"He hit a deer, and his truck's all messed up."
"Wait a minute, did he hit the deer, or did the deer hit him?"
"Deer hit him."
"OK, that figures. Steve's a nice guy, he'd never throw the first punch!"
I'll go quietly...
Flintlock76I'll go quietly...
SD70Dude addressed some of these issues earlier in the thread, and his points make sense.
However, in this case - flat, straight Prairie track, good visibility for miles, and a bright, clear sunny day - it seems to me that earlier prudent slowing action without endangering lives or equipment, or significantly affecting the train's schedule could have been taken. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, will come of the "review", and if the public will hear about it.
I also noted SD70Dude's claim that the facebook poster would probably face disciplinary action. And then I opened this months newly arrived Trains Magazine, and see on the cover "How to kill a railroad career" (I haven't read it yet though). Timely.
dwill49965 And then I opened this months newly arrived Trains Magazine, and see on the cover "How to kill a railroad career" (I haven't read it yet though).
A fire service site I follow refers to the modern version of this as "SMACSS," or Social Media Assisted Career Suicide Syndrome.
Often known as putting your foot in your mouth...
Ulrich Here's an idea.. perhaps drones could be used to fly ahead of trains in areas where large animal herds have been known to congregate.. the drones would relay back to crews and to the train dispatch center.. " herd two miles ahead".. engineer may then apply the brakes and avoid killing a bunch of animals. Or perhaps better yet, drones could be used to shepard herds off the tracks and to safety.
Here's an idea.. perhaps drones could be used to fly ahead of trains in areas where large animal herds have been known to congregate.. the drones would relay back to crews and to the train dispatch center.. " herd two miles ahead".. engineer may then apply the brakes and avoid killing a bunch of animals. Or perhaps better yet, drones could be used to shepard herds off the tracks and to safety.
BackshopMost commercial, inexpensive drones have limited range and endurance.
Nothing was said about how the drone pilots would be linked, but I suspect at least some of the 'flight' activity would be comparable to Predator missioning ... which can be deployed to a reasonable level of control for the purposes in this thread over reasonably low-latency satellite links.
There have been a couple of threads about launch and recovery from the locomotive under prospective inclement conditions; I suspect that the state of the art in semiautonomous drone guidance as BNSF is considering it has only improved since then.
Since this thread is about amimal - vehicle colisions, I have a queation.
When I was in high school (early '50s), I was in a study hall and my English lit book had a short story of a new freight diesel locomotive (FT?) on a demonstration trip somewhere in the plains (like Kansas) and I was reading it. As the story was telling the story every thing was interesting and then I came to where the locomotive hits a qrouse that smashed through the windshield and lands agains the back of the cab. The crew looked back at it and as they did, it threw up over thedeck. At this point I started laughing and could not stop. Teacher and all the other classmates were looking at me and I could not stop. The image was just more than I could repress. Did early Diesels have safety glass?
Convicted One Euclid So the only thing that would have likely prevented it was to slow down, reducing speed by about 20 mph. I have to wonder if the railroad has an official policy that would prohibit doing so? Where the engineer was forced to either hit the animals, or answer to disciplinary action?
I assume they do have such a rule that prohibits any attempt to yield to animals. Why else would this have happened? Obviously, the engineer resented it. What else would explain it other than a rule?
Electroliner 1935Did early Diesels have safety glass?
On the other hand, laminated armored glass was well known by 1939, and I believe substantial work into aircraft windshields had been done beginning in the early '30s. I would expect that railroads engaging in high-speed streamlined design (many of which would involve E units) would be concerned with things like birdstrike or foreign-object penetration and design windshields and mountings accordingly.
However, while my knowledge is both sketchy and anecdotal, it does not appear that either armored glass or appropriate cushioned sealed mounts in the windshield and cab/nose framing were used on 'production' E units right up to cessation of production circa 1964. In particular I remember one result of a fuel-truck collision, between a gasoline truck and an IC E8 with the E8-style curved glass numberboards, where both the numberboards and the windshields had promptly fractured in the impact and let flaming gasoline in torrents straight into the cab. That image has stuck with me over the years and significantly influenced my thinking on even medium-speed locomotive crash resistance -- its potential relevance here being that two decades or more after the FT era, GM cab-unit windshields were still minimally impact-resistant in applicable terms.
Overmod... In particular I remember one result of a fuel-truck collision, between a gasoline truck and an IC E8 with the E8-style curved glass numberboards, where both the numberboards and the windshields had promptly fractured in the impact and let flaming gasoline in torrents straight into the cab. That image has stuck with me over the years and significantly influenced my thinking on even medium-speed locomotive crash resistance -- its potential relevance here being that two decades or more after the FT era, GM cab-unit windshields were still minimally impact-resistant in applicable terms.
In particular I remember one result of a fuel-truck collision, between a gasoline truck and an IC E8 with the E8-style curved glass numberboards, where both the numberboards and the windshields had promptly fractured in the impact and let flaming gasoline in torrents straight into the cab. That image has stuck with me over the years and significantly influenced my thinking on even medium-speed locomotive crash resistance -- its potential relevance here being that two decades or more after the FT era, GM cab-unit windshields were still minimally impact-resistant in applicable terms.
The accident is described in HE 1780 .A34 no. NTSB-RHR-71-7. It can be accessed through https://dotlibrary.specialcollection.net/Home . The form of the site has been changed and makes it harder to access accident reports if you are 'fishing', The accident happened on the Illinois Central Railroad on January 24, 1970.
I might add that while trying to find the above accident, I stumbled across a IC accident when a tank car load of nitromethane exploded. At the time nitromethane was not considered a hazardous material. ???????? Rules written in blood.
EuclidI assume they do have such a rule that prohibits any attempt to yield to animals. Why else would this have happened? Obviously, the engineer resented it. What else would explain it other than a rule?
I doubt that it is spelled out that blatently, What I was thinking.....actually something more along the lines of a prohibition against a crew "knowingly impeding" employer's primary mission, or " failure to execute employee's duty in the most expeditious manner possible",,,,,with a verbal instruction that stopping for animals is seen as such an instance.
But yeah, I agree, the video is very likely some form of protest by a disgruntled whistleblower.
Convicted OneWhat I was thinking.....actually something more along the lines of a prohibition against a crew "knowingly impeding" employer's primary mission, or " failure to execute employee's duty in the most expeditious manner possible",,,,,with a verbal instruction that stopping for animals is seen as such an instance.
Probably the only real effective 'mitigation' is to do as in Britain and fence the whole of the line against intrusion. That's laughable to consider in most of the West, just for starters.
The idea of long-range monitoring and, perhaps, the option of more controlled stopping or 'airborne persuasion' remains interesting if it can be made cost-effective and reliable -- probably, as I noted, by being 'piggybacked' on other, more important or 'rewarding, functionality.
Animals have occupied the land long before 'property rights' and migrate to follow their food sources over the course of a year.
All the calls to erect fences and wall act in a negative manner to the historical inhabitants of the land - inhabitants that have been a part of the land from long before the creation of man made history.
OvermodI suspect it may be as simple as referencing the time-honored "the safe course must always be followed"
Perhaps coupled with a little ~institutional knowledge~ that -" Ol' Billy-Bob stopped for some sheep a few years back and got a 30 day vacation, as a reward"-?
Our current rulebook and operating manual does not say anything about animal strikes, one way or the other. The instructions I referenced about reporting animal strikes are from a specific bulletin that only applies to the trackage within Jasper National Park.
I believe there used to be instructions requiring crews to report accidents involving livestock, but this was so the farmer could be compensated, and had nothing to do with animal welfare.
The biggest step railways, car owners and shippers could do to reduce animal strikes would be to fix leaking grain hopper gates and quit spilling grain on top of the cars. It is this free food that lures so many animals to the track.
I used to work a branchline that didn't have any grain traffic, and animal strikes were very rare there.
Murphy SidingI guess it would be prudent then to ask airplanes to reduse their speed by 1/3rd or more whenever there are birds in the area?
Hey, in a modern reality where police budget cuts are expected to make us safer, I don't see your suggestion as completely without merit.
So if you were flying an airliner with 300 passengers, and came up on the tail of a large flock of geese, what would you do? Notch 8 and yell "YEE HAA!"?
Convicted One Euclid I assume they do have such a rule that prohibits any attempt to yield to animals. Why else would this have happened? Obviously, the engineer resented it. What else would explain it other than a rule? I doubt that it is spelled out that blatently, What I was thinking.....actually something more along the lines of a prohibition against a crew "knowingly impeding" employer's primary mission, or " failure to execute employee's duty in the most expeditious manner possible",,,,,with a verbal instruction that stopping for animals is seen as such an instance. But yeah, I agree, the video is very likely some form of protest by a disgruntled whistleblower.
Euclid I assume they do have such a rule that prohibits any attempt to yield to animals. Why else would this have happened? Obviously, the engineer resented it. What else would explain it other than a rule?
That would be called "Delaying Trains."
It's a catch-all for running too slow for their liking, not taking off from a stop fast enough or even stopping when not otherwise required. Like malicious compliance, it's threatened more often than actually used.
Convicted One Murphy Siding I guess it would be prudent then to ask airplanes to reduse their speed by 1/3rd or more whenever there are birds in the area? Hey, in a modern reality where police budget cuts are expected to make us safer, I don't see your suggestion as completely without merit. So if you were flying an airliner with 300 passengers, and came up on the tail of a large flock of geese, what would you do? Notch 8 and yell "YEE HAA!"?
Murphy Siding I guess it would be prudent then to ask airplanes to reduse their speed by 1/3rd or more whenever there are birds in the area?
Murph, one thing that planes can do that trains can't is alter the flight path in any one of four different directions, hopefully gradually enough not to wreak havoc with the passengers and/or flight attendants...
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
Nobody is suggesting that all animal strikes must be eliminated. So why offer the choice of either fencing all the railroads; or intentionally running down and killing a heard of wild animals?
When I look at this video, I see no attempt to slow down. The train appears to be traveling about 50 mph, and the animals at 30 mph. The train closes that gap in about 10 seconds, so it has traveled 730 ft.
The video begins with the animals in plain sight, so they had to have been observed on the track prior to the start of the video. It seems reasonable to conclude that there was at least another ten seconds in the visual approach prior to the start of the video.
So that is 20 seconds or 1460 feet of reaction time to reduce speed by 20 mph, which would have let the animals escape.
The defensive claim that the train could not stop in time is nonsense. There was no need to stop. The need was to reduce speed from 50 mph to 30 mph over a course of 1460 feet.
Anyone with experience would know that the animals would see their only option would be to try to outrun the train.
On most trains even emergency braking wouldn't slow you from 50 to 30 mph in less than 1500 feet.
And then there is the issue of train delay and blaming the crew for taking such unusual action.
Euclid Nobody is suggesting that all animal strikes must be eliminated. So why offer the choice of either fencing all the railroads; or intentionally running down and killing a heard of wild animals? When I look at this video, I see no attempt to slow down. The train appears to be traveling about 50 mph, and the animals at 30 mph. The train closes that gap in about 10 seconds, so it has traveled 730 ft. The video begins with the animals in plain sight, so they had to have been observed on the track prior to the start of the video. It seems reasonable to conclude that there was at least another ten seconds in the visual approach prior to the start of the video. So that is 20 seconds or 1460 feet of reaction time to reduce speed by 20 mph, which would have let the animals escape. The defensive claim that the train could not stop in time is nonsense. There was no need to stop. The need was to reduce speed from 50 mph to 30 mph over a course of 1460 feet. Anyone with experience would know that the animals would see their only option would be to try to outrun the train.
Murphy Siding Serious question- if the train had been able to slow down to 30 mph / antelope speed, wouldn't they just be following the herd along at antelope speed? The animals are on the track because the snow isn't as deep. If the horns didn't scare them off, they'd probably want to keep on running on the tracks.
I don't know what would have happened in that case. Maybe the animals could take siding somewhere.
I've 'chased' deer or coyotes for miles on a few occasions, if the snow is deep the track provides the easiest (only) trail for them.
This was also on a branchline where we were doing less than 30 mph in the first place, and with short trains where slowing down was not such a big deal.
Murphy SidingWhat do the pilots do now? A jet traveling at 500 mph covers 8-1/3 miles in a minute's time. I don't think tapping the brakes when you see a flock of geese will gain you much.
I suppose you could pull a "Kenneth Arnold" and blame it on forces beyond your comprehension...
Euclid Murphy Siding Serious question- if the train had been able to slow down to 30 mph / antelope speed, wouldn't they just be following the herd along at antelope speed? The animals are on the track because the snow isn't as deep. If the horns didn't scare them off, they'd probably want to keep on running on the tracks. I don't know what would have happened in that case. Maybe the animals could take siding somewhere.
They could do that - or - the train could swerve around them! [/sarcasm]
Murphy SidingSerious question- if the train had been able to slow down to 30 mph / antelope speed, wouldn't they just be following the herd along at antelope speed? The animals are on the track because the snow isn't as deep.
Seriously, I believe if the train had managed as you propose, that would have given more animals opportunity to "peel off" as the video indicates some were doing. Reducing the waste.
Just speaking from my personal perspective, the most disturbing thing of all about the video is the appearance that the locomotive appears to remain under power throughout the episode, as though no effort whatsoever was made to mitigate the carnage.
Like Euclid, I don't expect any perfect solution exists that could totally eliminate this sort of thing, but merely writing it off to "stupid animals!! oh well" doesn't appear to be a responsible outcome, either.
Convicted OneLike Euclid, I don't expect any perfect solution exists that could totally eliminate this sort of thing, but merely writing it off to "stupid animals!! oh well" doesn't appear to be a responsible outcome, either.
Conservation officials here in northern New York are concerned about reduced numbers of hunters. That translates into a reduced take, and an increase in the numbers of car/deer collisions.
Had a gentleman bag a nice five point with the front of his car the other day. I was going to take the deer (law enforcement can issue a tag just for that), but when you factor in the possibly totalled car, that's some expensive meat for the freezer...
Just another point of view.
Convicted OneJust speaking from my personal perspective, the most disturbing thing of all about the video is the appearance that the locomotive appears to remain under power throughout the episode, as though no effort whatsoever was made to mitigate the carnage. Like Euclid, I don't expect any perfect solution exists that could totally eliminate this sort of thing, but merely writing it off to "stupid animals!! oh well" doesn't appear to be a responsible outcome, either.
As I mentioned, I think there is more to this than meets the eye. No matter what the excuse is, the video stands on its own as being really creepy precisely because there was no attempt to prevent what obviously would be a wanton slaughter. It almost looks like a grudge murder.
Euclid Convicted One Just speaking from my personal perspective, the most disturbing thing of all about the video is the appearance that the locomotive appears to remain under power throughout the episode, as though no effort whatsoever was made to mitigate the carnage. Like Euclid, I don't expect any perfect solution exists that could totally eliminate this sort of thing, but merely writing it off to "stupid animals!! oh well" doesn't appear to be a responsible outcome, either. As I mentioned, I think there is more to this than meets the eye. No matter what the excuse is, the video stands on its own as being really creepy precisely because there was no attempt to prevent what obviously would be a wanton slaughter. It almost looks like a grudge murder.
Convicted One Just speaking from my personal perspective, the most disturbing thing of all about the video is the appearance that the locomotive appears to remain under power throughout the episode, as though no effort whatsoever was made to mitigate the carnage. Like Euclid, I don't expect any perfect solution exists that could totally eliminate this sort of thing, but merely writing it off to "stupid animals!! oh well" doesn't appear to be a responsible outcome, either.
Man is the most predatory of all predators on Earth.
Other predators do it for food, but not man.
tree68Conservation officials here in northern New York are concerned about reduced numbers of hunters. That translates into a reduced take, and an increase in the numbers of car/deer collisions.
I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but the "over population" mantra tends to get trotted out around here (Northern Indiana) whenever there is a car/deer collision, frequently by guys I know well enough to be sure they have SELDOM bothered to research any fact ouside of a sporting context.
If there TRULY was an"overpopulation" problem, I think there would be ample evidence of starvation.....
Personally, I tend to think it's more a matter that anytime there is a conflict between man and beast, the beast get's the rap. eg "If I ran into one of them, then that's one too many of them".
I more suspect the cause of the collisions we have around here, are due to the animals becoming habituated to human presence. They come nearer to our doings as they become more accustomed to our presence. And are ill prepared to deal with some of our behavior. I really don't think that is so much proof of "overpopulation", as some might be willing to claim.
And, I'll admit that I am somewhat of a freak when it comes to wildlife. I don't expect everyone to have the same feeling that I do.
When I see some of those pictures that guys take out of their living room windows, where it looks like Beaver Cleaver's neighborhood, except there is some big moose standing in his driveway.....it makes me jealous.
blhanel Murph, one thing that planes can do that trains can't is alter the flight path in any one of four different directions, hopefully gradually enough not to wreak havoc with the passengers and/or flight attendants...
Tell that to Sully and see how he replies.
(Miracle on the Hudson)
Convicted OneAnd, I'll admit that I am somewhat of a freak when it comes to wildlife. I don't expect everyone to have the same feeling that I do. When I see some of those pictures that guys take out of their living room windows, where it looks like Beaver Cleaver's neighborhood, except there is some big moose standing in his driveway.....it makes me jealous.
Around here the deer, elk and moose like to hang out in town because they have learned that wolves, bears and cougars do not.
I've had a few close encounters when stepping out to go to work during dark hours.
SD70DudeAround here the deer, elk and moose like to hang out in town because they have learned that wolves, bears and cougars do not.
SD70DudeI've had a few close encounters when stepping out to go to work during dark hours.
I was walking through the yard (dirt road - no tracks involved) one day, browsing some publication or other, and nearly ran into a doe. They are known to wander through on a regular basis, sometimes fascinating passengers waiting on the platform as they duck under the train...
We see some bear in the area from time to time...
Get a motion activated 'wildlife camera' and be amazed at the animals that come around your property - especially in the dark.
BaltACD Get a motion activated 'wildlife camera' and be amazed at the animals that come around your property - especially in the dark.
I put one up next to the cat food dish to figure out why we were going through so much, and was rewarded with hundreds of shots of mice. They were there literally every minute through the whole night.
There were also lots of photos of the oldest, fattest cat sitting beside the dish, watching the mice eat.
After that we moved the dish on top of a table the mice can't climb.
Convicted One tree68 Conservation officials here in northern New York are concerned about reduced numbers of hunters. That translates into a reduced take, and an increase in the numbers of car/deer collisions. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but the "over population" mantra tends to get trotted out around here (Northern Indiana) whenever there is a car/deer collision, frequently by guys I know well enough to be sure they have SELDOM bothered to research any fact ouside of a sporting context. If there TRULY was an"overpopulation" problem, I think there would be ample evidence of starvation..... Personally, I tend to think it's more a matter that anytime there is a conflict between man and beast, the beast get's the rap. eg "If I ran into one of them, then that's one too many of them". I more suspect the cause of the collisions we have around here, are due to the animals becoming habituated to human presence. They come nearer to our doings as they become more accustomed to our presence. And are ill prepared to deal with some of our behavior. I really don't think that is so much proof of "overpopulation", as some might be willing to claim.
tree68 Conservation officials here in northern New York are concerned about reduced numbers of hunters. That translates into a reduced take, and an increase in the numbers of car/deer collisions.
Convicted One And, I'll admit that I am somewhat of a freak when it comes to wildlife. I don't expect everyone to have the same feeling that I do. When I see some of those pictures that guys take out of their living room windows, where it looks like Beaver Cleaver's neighborhood, except there is some big moose standing in his driveway.....it makes me jealous.
Murphy Siding Convicted One And, I'll admit that I am somewhat of a freak when it comes to wildlife. I don't expect everyone to have the same feeling that I do. When I see some of those pictures that guys take out of their living room windows, where it looks like Beaver Cleaver's neighborhood, except there is some big moose standing in his driveway.....it makes me jealous. I was born in Alaska and lived in a rural area outside of Anchorage until I was 11. Moose were common on the highways and in yards. They are very dangerous to be around. You're talking about a big, dumb, easy to spook cow with huge horns. The deer that eat under my apple tree evey night, on the other hand, are quite harmless.
I was born in Alaska and lived in a rural area outside of Anchorage until I was 11. Moose were common on the highways and in yards. They are very dangerous to be around. You're talking about a big, dumb, easy to spook cow with huge horns. The deer that eat under my apple tree evey night, on the other hand, are quite harmless.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72awOuWcfAA
Convicted OneI'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but the "over population" mantra tends to get trotted out around here (Northern Indiana) whenever there is a car/deer collision, frequently by guys I know well enough to be sure they have SELDOM bothered to research any fact ouside of a sporting context. If there TRULY was an"overpopulation" problem, I think there would be ample evidence of starvation..... Personally, I tend to think it's more a matter that anytime there is a conflict between man and beast, the beast get's the rap. eg "If I ran into one of them, then that's one too many of them". I more suspect the cause of the collisions we have around here, are due to the animals becoming habituated to human presence. They come nearer to our doings as they become more accustomed to our presence. And are ill prepared to deal with some of our behavior. I really don't think that is so much proof of "overpopulation", as some might be willing to claim.
Convicted OneI'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but the "over population" mantra tends to get trotted out around here (Northern Indiana) whenever there is a car/deer collision, frequently by guys I know well enough to be sure they have SELDOM bothered to research any fact ouside of a sporting context. If there TRULY was an"overpopulation" problem, I think there would be ample evidence of starvation.....
It was an article in the paper the other day.
One must remember that I live in a part of NY state that many don't realize exists. I can stand on my back porch and view the Big Dipper while listening to the only vehicle in motion for miles as while it's still a couple of miles outside of the hamlet where I live. And, I live not far from the six million acre "forever wild" Adirondack Park.
I've been hearing multiple car/deer collisions daily on the scanner - and responded to one a few nights ago.
And we do get reports from time to time about the deer herd suffering due to overpopulation.
Murphy SidingI was born in Alaska and lived in a rural area outside of Anchorage until I was 11. Moose were common on the highways and in yards. They are very dangerous to be around. You're talking about a big, dumb, easy to spook cow with huge horns
I am envious of your history, and respect your personal experiences. I've never had an opportunity to "chum up" to a moose, and while I am sure it requires an abundance of caution, under the right set of cirmcumstances, I'm probably foolhardy enough to give it a try.
This not being a wildlife forum, I don't want to go too far off on a tangent, lest risk upsetting people. But in brief...my own experiences....I've been amazed with how not-dumb wildlife can be.....once you have earned their trust on an individual level. And that requires more patience than most people are willing to invest. I also find that many people are prone to confusing obedience for intelligence....if the animal fails to respond in an expected way, on a certain cue...they dismiss the animal as "dumb". Often that is an erroneous assumption.
Truthfully, the biggest risk I have encountered is once I have established trust with such an animal, I worry that some other unscrupulous human will exploit that to the detriment of the animal. There seems to be no shortage of people who amuse themselves inflicting hardship, thinking it is their birthright. But, uniquely enough, I find that many of the animals I've bonded with can distinguish me as an individual....acting calm and relaxed as I enter the scene....but displaying tense, or cautionary behavior when other folks come waltzing down the path.
greyhoundsIn this northeast corner of Illinois there have been problems with deer overpopulation. They’ve hired professional hunters to limit that population. (This drove some people nuts.) The deer don’t starve but they do harm and destroy native vegetation. They have no natural predators here, so the deer population does get too high at times.
To me, it seems like a real shame that they drained the Grand Kankakee Marsh in the name of progress. Sounds as though it was paradise on earth prior to all the "improvements".
Murphy Sidingur city had something like 33 automobile / deer collisions last year- on town.
Really? How many auto/auto collisions did you have? Perhaps it's not the deer population that has grown to non-useful proportion?
Sometimes the best thing to do is get rid of the fence.
Anyone out west in states like CO and WY knows what sheep jumps are. If antelope or deer (or moose or elk) winds up being chased along the R/W fence on the track or road side, there is a 6 ft dirt ramp and cattle chute to get the critters back on the side they belong on. It is not a railroad standard, but BNSF is trying these sheep-jumps out in some known problem areas.
In the Powder River Basin, often have had coal trains chase antelope at us on the R/W between the fences. We got in the habit of placing our survey trucks to protect our GPS equipment and us so they diverted around us instead of through us.
Have seen plenty of antelope run staight though fences like the fence isn't there, between the wires and at a dead run. Deer don't do that. (and cattle )... What we saw many times were the adult antelope on the wrong side of the fence with the young on the opposite side keeping pace.
In Glenwood Canyon, the issue is Elk and Mountain Sheep instead of antelope.
Convicted One Really? How many auto/auto collisions did you have? Perhaps it's not the deer population that has grown to non-useful proportion?
The over population mantra has merit.. If that wasn't so. Oakland County, to the west of me. Would not be sending out deputies to cull deer reducing road strikes..
SD60MAC9500The over population mantra has merit.. If that wasn't so. Oakland County, to the west of me. Would not be sending out deputies to cull deer reducing road strikes..
Still, there are more miles of gravel roads in the town ship I lived in than the very rural township I now live in in NY.
Being from Chicago, I'm familiar with the deer overpopulation issue, which seems to be a big deal in the North Shore suburbs. Instead of hiring hunters to thin the herd, it might be easier to let the coyotes drift into the area and serve their purpose as predators.
Convicted One Murphy Siding I was born in Alaska and lived in a rural area outside of Anchorage until I was 11. Moose were common on the highways and in yards. They are very dangerous to be around. You're talking about a big, dumb, easy to spook cow with huge horns I am envious of your history, and respect your personal experiences. I've never had an opportunity to "chum up" to a moose, and while I am sure it requires an abundance of caution, under the right set of cirmcumstances, I'm probably foolhardy enough to give it a try. This not being a wildlife forum, I don't want to go too far off on a tangent, lest risk upsetting people. But in brief...my own experiences....I've been amazed with how not-dumb wildlife can be.....once you have earned their trust on an individual level. And that requires more patience than most people are willing to invest. I also find that many people are prone to confusing obedience for intelligence....if the animal fails to respond in an expected way, on a certain cue...they dismiss the animal as "dumb". Often that is an erroneous assumption. Truthfully, the biggest risk I have encountered is once I have established trust with such an animal, I worry that some other unscrupulous human will exploit that to the detriment of the animal. There seems to be no shortage of people who amuse themselves inflicting hardship, thinking it is their birthright. But, uniquely enough, I find that many of the animals I've bonded with can distinguish me as an individual....acting calm and relaxed as I enter the scene....but displaying tense, or cautionary behavior when other folks come waltzing down the path.
Murphy Siding I was born in Alaska and lived in a rural area outside of Anchorage until I was 11. Moose were common on the highways and in yards. They are very dangerous to be around. You're talking about a big, dumb, easy to spook cow with huge horns
There's a flock of Canada geese that like frequenting the retention pond in our sub. I don't mind as long as they don't come into the sub, eating lawns and crapping everywhere. I know that they recognize me. As soon as they see me, they turn around and go back to the pond.
tree68 SD60MAC9500 The over population mantra has merit.. If that wasn't so. Oakland County, to the west of me. Would not be sending out deputies to cull deer reducing road strikes.. I grew up in western Oakland County, which is rapidly changing from rural to suburban. Even Livingston County, the next county west from Oakland, isn't as rural as it used to be. Still, there are more miles of gravel roads in the town ship I lived in than the very rural township I now live in in NY.
SD60MAC9500 The over population mantra has merit.. If that wasn't so. Oakland County, to the west of me. Would not be sending out deputies to cull deer reducing road strikes..
I grew up in western Oakland County, which is rapidly changing from rural to suburban. Even Livingston County, the next county west from Oakland, isn't as rural as it used to be.
Yes it is.. The major issues with deer are around Rochester Hills. Specifically around Livernois between Avon Rd., and Hamlin Rd.. Back in 2015 on I-75 I struck a small doe up in Mt Morris. It leaped right into my path hitting it at 70. I pulled over and walked back about 1300' didn't see it. It got up and dashed off. $7500+ worth of damage to the front end of my vehicle. Thank goodness for insurance.
CSSHEGEWISCHBeing from Chicago, I'm familiar with the deer overpopulation issue, which seems to be a big deal in the North Shore suburbs. Instead of hiring hunters to thin the herd, it might be easier to let the coyotes drift into the area and serve their purpose as predators.
The coyotes are here now.
Convicted OneTo me, it seems like a real shame that they drained the Grand Kankakee Marsh in the name of progress. Sounds as though it was paradise on earth prior to all the "improvements".
The Grand Kankakee Marsh has nothing to do with the subject pronghorn antelope herd in Canada. I have no opinion on draining the marsh.
greyhoundsThe Grand Kankakee Marsh has nothing to do with the subject pronghorn antelope herd in Canada.
Well, you brought up NE Illinois...I thought you might be familiar with Dan Parmalee?
And, despite whatever some might choose to believe, I do think that habitat destruction plays a significant role in the perception of "overpopulation".
Convicted One And, despite whatever some might choose to believe, I do think that habitat destruction plays a significant role in the perception of "overpopulation".
Back to Alberta, we have urban coyotes too. Ours have also learned that cats, dogs and garbage make far easier meals than rabbits, squirrels or deer, all of which are found in abundance in suburban areas. Edmonton's populations are helped along by our river valley park system, which I believe is the largest continuous urban park in North America.
Calgary has raccoons, so far Edmonton does not.
Black bears, cougars and wolves can be found only a few miles outside of Edmonton, and all three have become established in Elk Island National Park, a remnant of forested land east of Edmonton, which is surrounded by miles and miles of farmland.
In addition to the other more common predators, Calgarians have had some close encounters with grizzly bears in recent years, and they are becoming a farm nuisance in southern Alberta, where the prairie extends right up to the mountains.
I'd like to meet the coyote that could catch a healthy antelope without the aid of ACME products.
SD70Dude I'd like to meet the coyote that could catch a healthy antelope without the aid of ACME products.
I'm not sure that ACME products would help catch an antelope, healthy or otherwise. Those procducts never really helped a certain coyote catch the road runner.
Council Bluffs yard at one time was overrun with turkeys and deer. Some large specimens of both. Then it was said a coyote moved in. The deer are still around but not as many turkeys in the yard as before.
okay, let's think about this.
Unless you know about them well ahead of time it would be pretty hard to have any significant reduction in speed before striking the animals.
a engineer isn't just going to throw the throttle in idle and get into heavy dynamic braking and set a ton of air without a very very good reason. Avoiding a herd of animals that have no risk of derailing the train is not a good reason IMO. First you run the risk of derailing the train when you rapidly change the slack state of the train like that. Second i guarantee you will flag your tapes (locomotives automatically send emails out to the company if you violate certain train handling rules now) for many reasons and company Officials will be investigating your whole trip with a magnifying glass and will most definitely be trying to discipline and or fire you. if you don't believe the railroads do that, google the time not too long ago where a carman was fired for rescuing a kitten from a railcar....
The third reason is by the time you got the train to slow down you still would have mowed over all the animals anyways!
I hate hitting animals, and I do what I can within reason to avoid it but I'm not going to risk my job or the safety of my train to do so.
I live in a big city and raccoons are everywhere. They don't get in my garbage bin because I keep a cinder block on top of it, but that doesn't stop them from wandering around on my patio or porch roof which they sometimes use as a toilet. This past summer I go into my garage and what comes out from behind my roll-away toolbox but a skunk! I was paralyzed! It walked about 6 inches from me and never reacted but I'm still paranoid when I go to get my car out.
A few years ago I go into the garage and I had left a bag of rags on the floor. Something is in the bag. A possum and the damned thing hissed at me! I thought they were supposed to play dead! I swatted it with a broom and it took off.
Toronto has tree-filled ravines all over the city and they have coyotes in them and they also cruise around residential areas with not a care in the world. They're too smart to let themselves be caught. Out in the burbs there are the occasional fox and rural areas have bears. If you need to get out of your car to see what the other side of a tree looks like, be very careful. Once when driving near Parry Sound, a highway crew was dragging a dead bear off the road. I guess his pickanick basket swiping days are over.
London, England has foxes everywhere, they're almost as common as raccoons are here. A fox was found at the top of The Shard building when it was almost finished being built. Tallest building in Europe.
The amazing thing with wildlife we see around suburban areas is that they all have their own 'homes' somewhere in the near area. We may not see their homes, but they have them, otherwise they would not be in the area.
And you may be sharing YOUR home with them.
Backshop Ulrich Here's an idea.. perhaps drones could be used to fly ahead of trains in areas where large animal herds have been known to congregate.. the drones would relay back to crews and to the train dispatch center.. " herd two miles ahead".. engineer may then apply the brakes and avoid killing a bunch of animals. Or perhaps better yet, drones could be used to shepard herds off the tracks and to safety. Last that I checked, railroads were trying to reduce 2 man crews to 1, not add a third member. Most commercial, inexpensive drones have limited range and endurance.
Last that I checked, railroads were trying to reduce 2 man crews to 1, not add a third member. Most commercial, inexpensive drones have limited range and endurance.
No third crew member required as any engineering student today could design a system that is automated for this purpose. Most drones today would have the endurance and range, and they're getting better and cheaper every day.
Convicted One Murphy Siding What do the pilots do now? A jet traveling at 500 mph covers 8-1/3 miles in a minute's time. I don't think tapping the brakes when you see a flock of geese will gain you much. I suppose you could pull a "Kenneth Arnold" and blame it on forces beyond your comprehension...
Murphy Siding What do the pilots do now? A jet traveling at 500 mph covers 8-1/3 miles in a minute's time. I don't think tapping the brakes when you see a flock of geese will gain you much.
They try to avoid birds. Sometimes it doesn't work out so well..i.e. Chesley Sullenburger.."we'll be in the Hudson"..
A few comments about this subject from a non-railroading retired farmer: after living in the same house for almost 60 years, the wildlife population has changed, and does seem to be more bold around humans.
I have had multiple encounters and near-misses with the local deer population and the only thing I have used that helped was the horn. If deer can be seen before they hit you, blasting the horn often will get them to angle away from the road. I wondered if this was true with locomotives-loud horn blasts, turn the bell on-does this help?
RKFarms A few comments about this subject from a non-railroading retired farmer: after living in the same house for almost 60 years, the wildlife population has changed, and does seem to be more bold around humans. I have had multiple encounters and near-misses with the local deer population and the only thing I have used that helped was the horn. If deer can be seen before they hit you, blasting the horn often will get them to angle away from the road. I wondered if this was true with locomotives-loud horn blasts, turn the bell on-does this help?
Euclid RKFarms A few comments about this subject from a non-railroading retired farmer: after living in the same house for almost 60 years, the wildlife population has changed, and does seem to be more bold around humans. I have had multiple encounters and near-misses with the local deer population and the only thing I have used that helped was the horn. If deer can be seen before they hit you, blasting the horn often will get them to angle away from the road. I wondered if this was true with locomotives-loud horn blasts, turn the bell on-does this help? I think horn sounding might help with certain kinds of animals. But, they reported that those antelope in that CP event will always attempt to outrun the train. And if they are running away from a train, they must not need any horn to warn them. Also, the proper horn signal for that situation is a prolong series of short, sharp toots. Presumably, that has a sound of ugency that might help get the animal's attention. In the video, they were blowing the horn, but not that signal. It sounded like a prolonged, soft, wail with slight pauses here and there.
I think horn sounding might help with certain kinds of animals. But, they reported that those antelope in that CP event will always attempt to outrun the train. And if they are running away from a train, they must not need any horn to warn them. Also, the proper horn signal for that situation is a prolong series of short, sharp toots. Presumably, that has a sound of ugency that might help get the animal's attention. In the video, they were blowing the horn, but not that signal. It sounded like a prolonged, soft, wail with slight pauses here and there.
Murphy Siding Euclid RKFarms A few comments about this subject from a non-railroading retired farmer: after living in the same house for almost 60 years, the wildlife population has changed, and does seem to be more bold around humans. I have had multiple encounters and near-misses with the local deer population and the only thing I have used that helped was the horn. If deer can be seen before they hit you, blasting the horn often will get them to angle away from the road. I wondered if this was true with locomotives-loud horn blasts, turn the bell on-does this help? I think horn sounding might help with certain kinds of animals. But, they reported that those antelope in that CP event will always attempt to outrun the train. And if they are running away from a train, they must not need any horn to warn them. Also, the proper horn signal for that situation is a prolong series of short, sharp toots. Presumably, that has a sound of ugency that might help get the animal's attention. In the video, they were blowing the horn, but not that signal. It sounded like a prolonged, soft, wail with slight pauses here and there. I dunno. I can't buy into the idea that there's a certain tune that you have to play with the horn in order to get antelope off the track. Do you play Shave and a haircut, two bits! for antelope and Ode to Joy for deer? I tend to think that the animals just get used to the sound of the horns after a while.
I dunno. I can't buy into the idea that there's a certain tune that you have to play with the horn in order to get antelope off the track. Do you play Shave and a haircut, two bits! for antelope and Ode to Joy for deer? I tend to think that the animals just get used to the sound of the horns after a while.
Sounds like a good option for a multi-million dollar study where you watch trains in the mountains.
So they were using the horn as a mating call?
Every time I think of that video, I keep waiting on the engineer to turn on the windshield wipers. (Dawn of the Dead reference)
Well, I don't if it is true, but most of the news stories say that antelope are sort of wired to out-run rather than make evasive moves to escape. If they can outrun it, they can escape it. They are probably thinking about other 4-legged predators, though, and not trains.
I don't know how much of their decision is based on snow depth and the snow on the track being shallow. Being that they are trying to escape by out-running the train, they probably figure they can run the fastest in the shallow snow on the tracks. They may not know that trains need to be on tracks in order to chase antelopes.
They heard stories from "down south" about how their relatives used to outrun MILW and CRI&P trains on bad track.
Euclid Well, I don't if it is true, but most of the news stories say that antelope are sort of wired to out-run rather than make evasive moves to escape. If they can outrun it, they can escape it. They are probably thinking about other 4-legged predators, though, and not trains. I don't know how much of their decision is based on snow depth and the snow on the track being shallow. Being that they are trying to escape by out-running the train, they probably figure they can run the fastest in the shallow snow on the tracks. They may not know that trains need to be on tracks in order to chase antelopes.
BackshopThey heard stories from "down south" about how their relatives used to outrun MILW and CRI&P trains on bad track.
The ACS - Antelope Communication System
The reason antelopes try to outrun trains rather than attempt to evade them is that they do not realise that the train cannot follow them as they change course. They don't realise it because they have never tried it to learn that it works.
Euclid The reason antelopes try to outrun trains rather than attempt to evade them is that they do not realise that the train cannot follow them as they change course. They don't realise it because they have never tried it to learn that it works.
The bad thing is that pronghorn (they aren't really antelope) aren't supposed to be very good eating, so no one even got a good meal out of it.
Operation Herdsaver
Murphy Siding Euclid The reason antelopes try to outrun trains rather than attempt to evade them is that they do not realise that the train cannot follow them as they change course. They don't realise it because they have never tried it to learn that it works. I understand that you don't like references to Darwin, but this isn't too far off from how it was explained back in grade school. Those antelope that veer off live to reproduce and have babies that are probably a little more train smart. Those that keep running until they get hit by a train do not. You talked about what kind of horn honking would scare antelope off the tracks. Maybe there's your opportunity. Develop an auxiliary horn for use in antelope country and sell it to western & Canadian railroads.
I understand that you don't like references to Darwin, but this isn't too far off from how it was explained back in grade school. Those antelope that veer off live to reproduce and have babies that are probably a little more train smart. Those that keep running until they get hit by a train do not. You talked about what kind of horn honking would scare antelope off the tracks. Maybe there's your opportunity. Develop an auxiliary horn for use in antelope country and sell it to western & Canadian railroads.
Yes, maybe there would be a market for some sort of horn-like signal acting as a wild animal prod to get them to move out of the way. It might be well received in animal country.
Lots of animals get killed in India Railway train videos. In many cases, the animals are oblivious to the danger. Often, they just stand there looking at the train until they are struck. Sometimes the trains make an emergency application and stop just short of the animal. Sometimes, they hit elephants. Sometimes, the train slows down and just follows the animal because they stay on the track.
Let me add some more to this nonsense.
Once in my B&SV days, I was running the afternoon train back into town. A deer wanders onto the tracks and stops. He's far enough away, so I turn on the bell. He turns his whole body towards us, I guess to get a better look. And he justs stands there. We get a little closer and I give a few toots on the horn. At the sound of the horn, he finally runs off the track.
One night (post B&SV days) out west where we parallel US 30, a deer slowly starts walking across both tracks. We're on the south track. He crosses the north track ands starts across the south one, our track. It's not close but we were going faster than the B&SV would be going. I blow the horn, expecting it to "hurry up" across the south track. Nope, it turns around, slowly walks across the north track, into the ditch and out onto US 30. Where it promptly gets hit by a vehicle.
Speakingof deer whistles, which I don't think anyone has recently, I think there effectiveness depends on the what the deer is doing. If it's just casually walking around, grazing on the grass along the right of way, they might get the deer's attention. It might look around fo where the sound is coming from. (For all I know, the whistles might be playing "Ode to Joy.")
If the deer is on the run, either scared by something or just in a hurry, the whistles might not make much of an impression. At least not enough to get them to stop to look or listen.
JeffK
The most frequent result of trains running over wildlife is that they will get entangled in the traction motors and/or cause air hoses to become uncoupled and placing the train in emergency. This happend more than once on Amtrak operating on my territory. In one case as the Amtrak crew inspected their train that found out that not only had the animal caused air hose to uncouple, it had also damaged the HEP cable and left the train without power for lighting, heating or cooling. Animal's revenge.
When my wife and I lived near Richmond, she would drive to Williamsburg once a week. We installed deer whistles on her bumper because if it worked, it was cheap insurance. If it didn't, it was cheap confidence.
My Wrangler has a rack I fabricated eighteen years ago. I evidently did something with the way the steel tubing is aligned because after installing it, deer would run away fast. Before it, I could spot the deer and not have them react. After....they clearly were scared of it. I never noticed any sounds myself. I recently built a new rack, but oriented the cross bars sideways so no open steel ends exposed to the front. The deer ignore me again.
So there may be something to those little plastic confidence boosters.
Time to bring back cowcatchers!
BaltACD The most frequent result of trains running over wildlife is that they will get entangled in the traction motors and/or cause air hoses to become uncoupled and placing the train in emergency. This happend more than once on Amtrak operating on my territory. In one case as the Amtrak crew inspected their train that found out that not only had the animal caused air hose to uncouple, it had also damaged the HEP cable and left the train without power for lighting, heating or cooling. Animal's revenge.
Back in the days of light, wood freight cars some railroads had instructions requiring crews to stop and inspect the train after running over a large animal, as the carcass could become wedged underneath and potentially cause a derailment.
I could see it happening in specific circumstances even today, moose, cattle and bison are pretty substantial creatures with thick bones, and empty aluminum cars only weigh about 20 tons.
Watched (again) the episode of Mighty Trains about the Rocky Mountaineer the other day.
They had a section discussing how they were putting remote battery powered warning devices attached to the rail giving the animals more warning time reducing the collisions.
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