This links to a very disturbing video. I know freight trains can't stop on a dime, but in rewatching it several times, it doesn't even look like they tried to slow down (maybe it would have been fruitless anyway).
My apologies if it has already been posted here, but I had a look at recent topics and didn't see it.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/cp-rail-video-train-runs-over-antelope-herd-1.5828740
They did not try to slow down, but I wonder what the rules require in a case like that. They said crews cannot always stop safely. I don't think stopping would have been necessary. But what determines whether the train can be stopped safely? How safe is safely? Would they have broken a rule if they slowed down? Would a brake application have jeopardized safety?
Animal strikes are an unfortunate daily occurrence on the railroad. This guy was just stupid enough to film it and publicly post it. They'll probably get disciplined/fired for using a personal electronic device at work, not for hitting the Antelope.
While heavy braking might have made a bit of difference, I don't think they could have avoided all of them. And depending on the track profile, train makeup, and temperature such action by the crew could result in a train separation or significant delay while recharging the air brake system after coming to a stop.
Herds of Bighorn Sheep hang out on the track and inside a curved tunnel near Park Gate on CN's line through Jasper National Park, and on most days there are similar close calls. Fortunately the tunnel and curves are restricted to 25 mph, which conveniently is also the top speed of an unladen sheep. Some do get hit, especially if they are in the tunnel when a train arrives.
If I can I'll try to slow down, but on most occasions there is nothing we can do. I'm just not dumb enough to post video of it online.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
I know that some will get hit as normal routine, but what does the rules say about a situation like this one? You have an unusually large number of animals that are known to try to outrun an appraching danger rather than evade it. So it ought to be obvious that many animals will get killed. I would estimate that the crew would realize that they would hit the animals if they did not slow down. Why would the company be investigating it? For an engineer to video that, it almost seems like he must disagree with the practice, but has been told not to slow down to attempt to prevent animal strikes.
As I said, slowing down might not have made much difference in this case, and in most cases it won't. Shutting off the headlight and ringing the bell is usually enough to make deer and moose run, sheep and elk are more stubborn. So are bears, especially if they have found a rotting grain pile and have had 'a few too many'.
We are supposed to report all animal strikes that happen within the National Park, but most guys don't bother with mundane stuff like single deer, elk or sheep. A large event like this or a predator (especially the endangered Grizzly Bear) would definitely be reported.
If a radio collared bear, wolf, cougar or other animal is hit, the Park will know automatically.
Engineering forces and Park Wardens will try to remove most carcasses from the track, to avoid attracting even more predators. But outside the Park this isn't always done, and it is common to see a big flock of Ravens fighting with a Bald Eagle or Coyote over a carcass, whether it be on or off the track.
I suspect the Ravens and other scavengers have learned that 'scouting' along the track changes their odds of eating from if to when......
One of Al Krug's tales involve a collision with a horse at 60-ish MPH. A picture accompanying the tale showed not much left of the horse but oats, if you will.
I got a deer once that somehow avoided the front truck of the locomotive, tagging the rear truck (under the loco) instead. Mechanical wasn't happy, but the deer literally hit me, instead of the other way around.
We've hit several deer in the past, including that one.
I got a possum once with a locomotive - it was walking on the railhead. The crew on the other locomotive saw it (we were running with a loco on each end of the train) on the return trip. It was literally split in half...
There's only so much you can do...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
As stated in the news article Pronghorn have a difficult time in deep snow. If the snow was of minimal cover they would have no problem outrunning the train and getting off the RoW. Pronghorn can reach speeds of up to 60mph and sustain that speed for roughly 3-5 mins. This is unfortunate, but sometimes things happen outside of your control. Not to nitpick much. Pronghorn are not antelopes. They're actually a distinct member of the order Artiodactyla.
For all their speed, Pronghorn can't jump very well either, and became an endangered species out here during the early years of fencing. Canada actually had two national parks (both since abolished) dedicated to the preservation of the species.
Now barbed wire fences must have a smooth wire on the bottom and it must be a certain minimum height above the ground, so the antelope (as they are commonly called out here) can slide underneath it, just like deer do under railcars.
It is believed that the Pronghorn evolved its great speed to outrun the American Cheetah, which of course is now extinct.
Remember - the routes grain trains operate make a convenient feeding source for wildlife. Cars do leak their contents from time to time and with the record hauls of grain over the past several years wildlife thrives.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Remember - the routes grain trains operate make a convenient feeding source for wildlife. Cars do leak their contents from time to time and with the record hauls of grain over the past several years wildlife thrives.
I recall watching squirrels feasting on the Rochelle cam after a couple of grainers passed through. Could see the same phenomenon along then-highway-395 near Perris CA which paralleled an ATSF line that had a number of grain customers...back in the day.
Years back when I lived in Gillette Wyoming there were big herds antelope everywhere. One hard winter also had an overpopulation of antelope and also of jackrabbits. Both were mowed down in large herds by trains, trucks and cars. When I was a kid I lived in Alaska outside of Anchorage. Moose getting hit by trains, cars and trucks was very common. The trains had cow catcher pilots on the front that were called moose goosers.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
SD70Dude Fortunately the tunnel and curves are restricted to 25 mph, which conveniently is also the top speed of an unladen sheep.
Fortunately the tunnel and curves are restricted to 25 mph, which conveniently is also the top speed of an unladen sheep.
Are these African or European unladen sheep????
Couldn't resist....
SD70Dude For all their speed, Pronghorn can't jump very well either, and became an endangered species out here during the early years of fencing. Canada actually had two national parks (both since abolished) dedicated to the preservation of the species. Now barbed wire fences must have a smooth wire on the bottom and it must be a certain minimum height above the ground, so the antelope (as they are commonly called out here) can slide underneath it, just like deer do under railcars. It is believed that the Pronghorn evolved its great speed to outrun the American Cheetah, which of course is now extinct.
Erik_Mag SD70Dude Fortunately the tunnel and curves are restricted to 25 mph, which conveniently is also the top speed of an unladen sheep. Are these African or European unladen sheep???? Couldn't resist....
I guess every 'area/region/ terrain,etc' has its own hazards for the local faua? I have a friend who used tio reun a BNSF (trackage rights job) betwen Little Rock and Memphis. Aligators crossing were an issue for him... Now he runs[Illini/Saluki] between Chicago and Carbondale.... Deer are the problem there.
Trains can't stop for animals but maybe something can be done to keep herds away from the tracks. I don't know what that would look like, but some jurisdictions like BC have done some interesting stuff with animal crossings and highways.
SD70Dude I suspect the Ravens and other scavengers have learned that 'scouting' along the track changes their odds of eating from if to when......
I've seen something similar here at Bayview Junction. A couple of hawks would wait for a train to pass. In fact as the train rolls through the Junction (which is flanked by hills) the hawks take off and fly directly in front of the train as if to guide it.. sometimes the engineer would sound the horn as the hawks are that close.. once the train has cleared the Junction the hawks circle and gain altitude and then head back into the Junction where they pickup what ever animals had the misfortune of getting hit by the train. I've seen this happen a few times..
I've had more than a few cases of hawks repeatedly flying ahead of our trains, looking for what we scare out of hiding. We generally run 20-25 MPH, so we're not talking bullet train speeds, here.
Land, watch, fly ahead, repeat.
GoodtimingI don’t see any attempt at slowing down through the whole herd. Not good!
Realistically, I don’t think that would make any difference. If the horn doesn’t get them off the tracks, it makes no difference whether the train hits them at 40 mph or 39 mph. In addition, if the engineer slowed down every time there was an animal on the tracks, the trains would fall behind on schedules.
I thought that the suggestion to issue slow orders for the trains when herds were observed to be near the tracks was a reasonable compromise.
Simply dusting ones hands off and blaming it on "overpopulation" is myopic, imo.
Murphy SidingRealistically, I don’t think that would make any difference. If the horn doesn’t get them off the tracks, it makes no difference whether the train hits them at 40 mph or 39 mph. In addition, if the engineer slowed down every time there was an animal on the tracks, the trains would fall behind on schedules.
I think he was attempting a little dark humor about the herd failing to slow down.
Convicted One I thought that the suggestion to issue slow orders for the trains when herds were observed to be near the tracks was a reasonable compromise. Simply dusting ones hands off and blaming it on "overpopulation" is myopic, imo.
I think so too, although the train crews are limited in what they can do. But let's subsititute "rock slide" for "herd" and one can be sure that the railroad would implement measures to ensure trains don't run into fallen rock. Something more could be done I'm sure to protect wildlife without unduly affecting schedules.
Ulrich Convicted One I thought that the suggestion to issue slow orders for the trains when herds were observed to be near the tracks was a reasonable compromise. Simply dusting ones hands off and blaming it on "overpopulation" is myopic, imo. I think so too, although the train crews are limited in what they can do. But let's subsititute "rock slide" for "herd" and one can be sure that the railroad would implement measures to ensure trains don't run into fallen rock. Something more could be done I'm sure to protect wildlife without unduly affecting schedules.
I am surprised it took so long for someone to trot out the Darwin Award.
Murphy Siding Ulrich Convicted One I thought that the suggestion to issue slow orders for the trains when herds were observed to be near the tracks was a reasonable compromise. Simply dusting ones hands off and blaming it on "overpopulation" is myopic, imo. I think so too, although the train crews are limited in what they can do. But let's subsititute "rock slide" for "herd" and one can be sure that the railroad would implement measures to ensure trains don't run into fallen rock. Something more could be done I'm sure to protect wildlife without unduly affecting schedules. I don't want to sound like a heartless antelope killer, but should we then lower the speed limit on highways during those times as well? I bet a lot more animals are killed on roads than railroads. Would you have trains slow down for a whole winter when the antelope population gets big? Do they slow down only when there's a herd on the track? Or near the track? Or when there's a herd in the area? Whether we like it or not, this is Darwin's theory being played out. The antelpoe that get off the tracks when a train approaches are the ones who live another day.
I don't want to sound like a heartless antelope killer, but should we then lower the speed limit on highways during those times as well? I bet a lot more animals are killed on roads than railroads. Would you have trains slow down for a whole winter when the antelope population gets big? Do they slow down only when there's a herd on the track? Or near the track? Or when there's a herd in the area? Whether we like it or not, this is Darwin's theory being played out. The antelpoe that get off the tracks when a train approaches are the ones who live another day.
I've thought about this problem for a grand total of about 15 minutes, so I will be the first one to admit that I don't have all the answers or even one answer. But.. I believe that with some careful thought and planning something could be done that would be along the lines of a satisfactory outcome for both man and beast.
Here's an idea.. perhaps drones could be used to fly ahead of trains in areas where large animal herds have been known to congregate.. the drones would relay back to crews and to the train dispatch center.. " herd two miles ahead".. engineer may then apply the brakes and avoid killing a bunch of animals. Or perhaps better yet, drones could be used to shepard herds off the tracks and to safety. Good ideas or not, I'm sure we can do better than to simply run animals down.
Murphy SidingI don't want to sound like a heartless antelope killer, but should we then lower the speed limit on highways during those times as well? I bet a lot more animals are killed on roads than railroads. Would you have trains slow down for a whole winter when the antelope population gets big? Do they slow down only when there's a herd on the track?
I suspect that some of us find it a little less challenging to be sympathetic to wildlife than others do. "Share the planet" and I'll leave it at that.
UlrichHere's an idea.. perhaps drones could be used to fly ahead of trains in areas where large animal herds have been known to congregate.. the drones would relay back to crews and to the train dispatch center.. " herd two miles ahead".. engineer may then apply the brakes and avoid killing a bunch of animals. Or perhaps better yet, drones could be used to shepherd herds off the tracks and to safety.
I would suggest something additional, though: that some combination of animal-rights groups and directed personal funds appeals, perhaps including crowdsourcing, be used to pay the 'marginal cost' to provide, maintain, and run it. That might in turn defray some pro rata cost to provide the overall drone infrastructure or 'tip over' railroads into adopting some version of the technology.
I am not sure what effects get animals to move. Perhaps dust off the photic drivers from the '60s? Those would work well on herds of 'graffiti writers', too...
Deer hit my car once. Wife & I were camping in Brown Cty State Park in Indiana, I was driving at about 10 mph on the road from the campground and there was a car in front of me and a ranger behind. Herd of about six deer in field to the left of the road suddenly chose to go to the other side of the road. One struck my car right smack dab in the middle of my door. Door had a significant dent, and the deer was down on the pavement. We and the ranger got out of the vehicles and stood looking at the deer. I think we all knew to be afraid of its hooves. After about three or four minutes, the deer raised its head, looked around, stood up and bolted for the trees. Why a deer can't see a car, I don't know.
The other animal, train incident was on a trip on BC Rail. I was allowed to ride up front in the lead RDC with the engineer. After leaving Williams Bay for Prince George, we came upon a black bear on the tracks and it took off toward P.G. at a good clip. But we were doing better than 60 mph and I thought we were going to hit it. But fortunately, for it, and I think us, it veered off the roadbed about 20 feet before impact. Engineer said they don't get many.
Electroliner 1935Why a deer can't see a car, I don't know.
At one time I lived in an 'enclave' that was reached by driving over two very substantial little hills (likely raised in the New Madrid earthquake of 1811). As more houses were built, these summits were 'cut down' leaving fairly large "berms" at the crest, diminishing to level and then a slight fill in between. I was driving over the first of these hills when a substantial buck jumped from berm to berm RIGHT above headlight level, without any warning at all -- there was nothing, then my windshield was completely full of ruminant -- then a second later he was gone. He left small traces of blood and skin in one of the headlight surrounds, it was that close; had I been less than half a second further along he's have been transversely through the windshield, in what I suspect would have been an unsurvivable accident.
On two occasions I was driving over to the San Fernando Valley from Hollywood in fog, to come suddenly upon some local species of deer trotting along right in front of me. In neither case did I have full time to react and brake to a stop; in both cases I contacted the hindquarters lightly and they fell over ... only to get up and keep right along trotting in the road.
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