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Blockade Getting Worse... Now Amtrak Affected

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, February 25, 2020 9:19 AM

The interesting issue with the Teck project -- which may well involve contractual issues or obligations of which I'm naturally unaware -- is that getting approval to proceed with the mining project and actually starting to mine the sands are two very different things.  As with the Norwegian part of the North Sea oil fields, you might easily want to sit on your hands, perhaps for decades, to see if the markets for the product of tar-sand refining recover.  

Instead we see (if I understand the gist correctly) the whole thing being terminated, presumably with the whole application process having to be repeated if Teck ultimately decides to proceed with mining later, and the whole of the early development and legal expense having to be costed-down or written off.  Perhaps PJS1 has specific knowledge into what this might entail 'behind the scenes'.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Tuesday, February 25, 2020 9:22 AM

Lithonia Operator

In both threads about this, the Liberal government is taking a beating. But it must be remembered that this government was elected by a majority of Canadians.

In the 2019 Canadian Federal election the Liberal Party received 33.1% of the vote and won 46.4% of the seats. 

The Conservative Party received 34.4% of the vote but only won 35.8% of the seats. 

The Liberals have decided to continue forward as a minority government, on a bill-to-bill basis.  As long as they attract sufficient support from the other parties they will continue to govern, perhaps for another 4 years. 

At any time any one of the other parties could call for a vote of no confidence, and if they all band together and out-vote the Liberals Parliament would be dissolved and we would have another election.

For the record, I voted for one of the 'fringe' parties.  None of the 'big three' (Cons, Libs, NDP) currently appeal to me for a variety of reasons, and in my Alberta riding it doesn't matter, the Conservative candidate always wins anyway.

Greetings from Alberta

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Posted by Ulrich on Tuesday, February 25, 2020 10:27 AM

The Liberals are in a comfortable minority as the NDP doesn't have the resources for another election any time soon, and the Conservatives need to find another leader before going into the next election. So neither of the major opposition parties is going to be quick on the trigger on a vote of nonconfidence. 

In retrospect Trudeau handled this situation relatively well. Hindsight is of course always 20/20, and he likely could have acted sooner on the blockades by having the RCMP respond quicker to pulling out of the disputed territory. It's not over yet, but we're getting there... 

Also good to see that CN and CP (and Ontario Northland) were able to work closely together to get some supplies through. That speaks volumes for how good our rail system as a whole really is.. competitors working together on short notice to make it happen. Well done CN, CP and ONR!

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, February 25, 2020 11:16 AM

Have all the Canadian railroad blockades been removed?  If not, how many have been removed and how many remain?  If they all have been removed, how many were there?

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Posted by Ulrich on Tuesday, February 25, 2020 11:45 AM

No, new blockades are showing up. One now set up not far from Bayview Junction, between Hamilton and Aldershot. And once again the police are loathe to move in to enforce the injunction.  They're blockading roads now too. Hopefully the police step up  their enforcement.. 

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Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, February 25, 2020 12:26 PM

 

Ulrich

No, new blockades are showing up. One now set up not far from Bayview Junction, between Hamilton and Aldershot. And once again the police are loathe to move in to enforce the injunction.  They're blockading roads now too. Hopefully the police step up  their enforcement.. 

 

I did hear that some new blockades were put up yesterday, but how many were removed yesterday?  Everything I read refers to taking down a blockade.  I had the impression that there were dozens of blockades in use. 

If only one was removed yesterday, there must still be many in place.  The hereditary chiefs have been saying they will not remove them until the RCMP withdraws from traditional lands. 

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Posted by Ulrich on Tuesday, February 25, 2020 12:40 PM

Still many in place although not sure how many as its a fluid situation with some going up and some going down. Even the one in Belleville isn't completely gone as there are still protestors and a heavy police presence. 

 This is turning into a game of wack-a-mole..The protestors clearly have the upper hand as most evidently have nothing better to do with their time.. like holding down a job. 

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Posted by csxns on Tuesday, February 25, 2020 3:16 PM

Ulrich
The protestors clearly have the upper hand as most evidently have nothing better to do with their time.. like holding down a job. 

Sounds like the protestors here in the USA too.

Russell

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Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:11 AM

Last week, the news was that Justin Trudeau said that the blockades need to come down.  I took that to mean that he was ordering that the blockades be removed by the government.  Next the police forced the removal of one blockade and the oppostion reacted by adding more blockades.  So I assume the need for the blockaces to come down is just an ongoing fact of their status, and not the start of taking them down. 

This kind of government appeasement is bound to embolden the protesters to stregthen their resistance to a settlement.  At the same time, it is angering the non-protesting citizens and increasing their demand for action from the Government to uphold their rights to not be inconvenienced by illegal actions of the protesters.  So, Mr. Trudeau's appeasement is building pressure toward the very sort of violence that he says he must avoid.   

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Posted by Ulrich on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:24 AM

It's a very fine line. I don't fault him for taking a careful approach. This is a powder keg that could very easily turn into something far worse than blockades. I'm hoping the government continues to reach out to First Nations to address ongoing land claim and other concerns. If the indigenous people can see that good faith efforts are being made then I think the blockades will come down. Everyone involved realizes there's no quick fix to this. Some of the issues in contention have been going on for hundreds of years, and they likely won't be resolved in the next ten. 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 10:19 AM

csxns
 
Ulrich
The protestors clearly have the upper hand as most evidently have nothing better to do with their time.. like holding down a job. 

 

Sounds like the protestors here in the USA too.

I don't know what it's like in Canada but the unemployment rates on some of the reservations in the United States have been around 30% and higher for decades.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 12:03 PM

Ulrich

It's a very fine line. I don't fault him for taking a careful approach. This is a powder keg that could very easily turn into something far worse than blockades. I'm hoping the government continues to reach out to First Nations to address ongoing land claim and other concerns. If the indigenous people can see that good faith efforts are being made then I think the blockades will come down. Everyone involved realizes there's no quick fix to this. Some of the issues in contention have been going on for hundreds of years, and they likely won't be resolved in the next ten. 

 

I don't see a quick fix with the current Trudeau policy.  But with the pipeline issue appartently just a pretext to address a seeminly endless list of grievances, how long will this patient process of negotiations go on?  It is likely to take far longer than just weeks, months, or even years.  It could continue indefinitely.  How long can the railroads remain shut down?

This must end soon, but the protestors are saying that this shutdown is accomplishing exactly what they want, that is to draw attention by making the non-indiginous population feel the pain of shortages and traffic jams.  The objective is to propell the non-indiginous population into driving the Government into action to make concessions to the protesters. 

However, the protester demands are widely recognized as being based on agendas such as carbon neutrality, and there is a lot of resistance to those agendas by the non-indiginous population.  So inconveniencing the non-indiginous population may backfire and cause them to demand that the protests end. 

So I belive that the longer this drags on, the more likely it will be to end in violence and loss of life.  The police already ended one blockade without violence.  So, it is time to end all of the blockades before rising tensions cause it to spin out of control. 

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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 12:28 PM

Euclid
But with the pipeline issue apparently just a pretext to address a seemingly endless list of grievances,...

And therein lies the quandry...

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 12:55 PM

Since much of the current discussion appears to be focused in this thread:

As an honorary Canadian, I'll say this, and little more:

A crux of short-term Federal policy needs to be addressed specifically at the issue of transportation easements across First Nations land.  This must include a categorical discussion of the 'rights' of different kinds of transportation to cross, and the rights (or rationales) of the Government to ensure them if compromised for any reason.  

Note that this is different both from autonomous control over the 'lands' involved, or from any right or privilege for the First Nations to interdict it unilaterally hereafter.

No other issues but this should be, or need be, discussed in conjunction.  Expedient or otherwise.

The Government may then generate 'hard' policies regarding what happens if the right of passage is compromised in some way -- including the use of force or presence to allow free and safe passage of traffic.  (This appears to be implicit for users of the 401..)

If there are subsequent protests that block traffic, they can be treated reasonably objectively with respect to use of force or policing authority permitted the Government of Canada.

Without resolving this issue specifically, I see no good (or particularly effective) end to the slippery-slope development of the current #blockade 'solidarity' movement.  I also think it both politically and ethically preferable to the logical alternatives of passing more relatively-silly C51/C309 style repressive legislation on 'unpopular' cohorts in Canadian society ... but continue, of course, to defer quietly to Canadian rights to continue to elect the democracy they deserve, and enjoy the consequences thereof.

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Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 1:18 PM

Overmod
A crux of short-term Federal policy needs to be addressed specifically at the issue of transportation easements across First Nations land. This must include a categorical discussion of the 'rights' of different kinds of transportation to cross, and the rights (or rationales) of the Government to ensure them if compromised for any reason.

Doesn't all of this already exist as a matter of law?  I had assumed that the blockades are illegal, but the law is being violated and not enforced.

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Posted by Convicted One on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 1:34 PM

Overmod
but continue, of course, to defer quietly to Canadian rights to continue to elect the democracy they deserve, and enjoy the consequences thereof.

Well put!!

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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 1:37 PM

Euclid
Doesn't all of this already exist as a matter of law?  I had assumed that the blockades are illegal, but the law is being violated and not enforced.

The issue is First Nations territory, where I believe by general consensus that Canadian law does not necessarily apply.

The protests off First Nations territory are trespassing and blocking commerce, in and of themselves illegal.  Were they not intrinsically tied to the issue at hand, I suspect they'd be long gone.

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Posted by azrail on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 1:49 PM

In the US, the FBI has jurisdiction over Indian lands, does not the RCMP have the same jurisdiction?

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Posted by Convicted One on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 2:00 PM

tree68
The issue is First Nations territory, where I believe by general consensus that Canadian law does not necessarily apply. The protests off First Nations territory are trespassing and blocking commerce, in and of themselves illegal. Were they not intrinsically tied to the issue at hand, I suspect they'd be long gone.

The way I see it, there are an array of laws involved, so enforcement becomes a matter of disparate priorities. And personal property rights are not the highest priority at present.

I suspect that enforcement would be viewed much in the same spirit as handing out speeding tickets  to drivers trying to escape a forest fire.

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Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 2:25 PM

 

Canadian law applies to trespassing on the railroads and blockading trains.  But Mr. Trudeau chooses not to enforce it because removing the blockades would appear to be committing violence against the indiginous people.

I believe a large part of the Canadian population views this as violating their rights, and so the appeasement of the indginous people is creating a sharp divide that is likely to have the bad ending that everyone seems to fear.

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 3:12 PM

The two sides BOTH have rights, rights which neither side wants to respect and/or acknowledge.

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Posted by Ulrich on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 3:22 PM

The government should perhaps blockade the gravy train and chargeback the illegal protestors and their sponsors for losses incurred. Let the hereditary chiefs absorb some of the loss and watch how fast they come to the table to negotiate. Their own First Nations people will run them off the reserve if their actions bring about a sharp reduction in funding and no gas line.

 

 

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Posted by Convicted One on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 3:33 PM

Ulrich
The government should perhaps blockade the gravy train and chargeback the illegal protestors and their sponsors for losses incurred. Let the hereditary chiefs absorb some of the loss and watch how fast they come to the table to negotiate. Their own First Nations people will run them off the reserve if their actions bring about a sharp reduction in funding.

Does Canada have an equivalent to the Rico Act?

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Posted by Ulrich on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 4:18 PM

We do have equivalent laws and regulations although I'm not up on what they're called. 

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 5:02 PM

This protest should be ended.  But the Canadian government needs to admit that they viloated their laws by not following up on promises found in treatys.  Of course  I also admit that the US government has done the same thing probably worse. 

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Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 5:25 PM

Excellent summation by Andrew Scheer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRn_Rn00slI

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 6:29 PM

Let's leave Canada's relations with its first people to their government.  None of our business. Our record with native Americans is horrific. 

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 6:34 PM

Double stacks, tracks set ablaze with train in motion.

https://globalnews.ca/video/6598863/tyendinaga-protesters-set-fire-next-to-tracks-as-freight-train-rolls-past-eventually-stops

 Note the gasoline poured trackside while the train is in motion.

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Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 7:46 PM

 

There’s your dialogue.

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, February 26, 2020 8:30 PM

Every continent that has suffered a Europen population invasion has horrific relations with the indigenous populations.

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