BigJim Murphy Siding Tree and/or 243129- can you explain the orientation of the cab equipment that would cause 243129 to say that the engineer would have to leave his seat? Because the Emergency button is on the conductor's side in plain site, I can read it from here. That red button on the engineer's side is the "Cab Signal Acknowledge" button. Enlarge the picture to read the label. The engineer moves the brake handle all the way forward to put the brakes in emergency, just like on any other automatic brake valve.
Murphy Siding Tree and/or 243129- can you explain the orientation of the cab equipment that would cause 243129 to say that the engineer would have to leave his seat?
Because the Emergency button is on the conductor's side in plain site, I can read it from here. That red button on the engineer's side is the "Cab Signal Acknowledge" button. Enlarge the picture to read the label.
The engineer moves the brake handle all the way forward to put the brakes in emergency, just like on any other automatic brake valve.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
What effect would the movement of the train- going from 59(?) mph on the mainline and taking a quick right hand turn- have on the crew's ability to grasp the situation and react in a hurry? Would that maneuver have thrown them out of their seats?
Murphy SidingWould that maneuver have thrown them out of their seats?
Perhaps; we won't know until we see the inside-camera view. Clearly the engineer was close enough to the horn to sound it, and the blended-brake lever to actuate it, seconds after traversing the switch. That does not indicate to me that the engineer was particularly 'disabled' by the lateral shock or confused for more than a second or so if that. But we'd need to see the camera file to know anything for sure.
I was away from the computer. And BigJim handled the explanation.
The point of posting the pictures was to show that there is a big red button. It is analagous to the emergency brake valve on the conductor/firemen's side on older locomotives. Many current locomotives actually have electronics over air brake systems, so a push button on the right side makes perfect sense.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
For those of you who may be interested, here is an 'official' P42 video with some elementary discussion of controls.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRValOA7TZo
The emergency application button is around 25 minutes in; I think it's intended as the 'assistant engineer's' way to put the train in emergency, as it nominally does the same thing as the 'emergency' position on the engineer's blended brake controller does. It releases by pulling. But 49 CFR 238.231(c) states an emergency application on a passenger train must be 'irretrievable' so I would presume the button also holds the brake system in emergency, independent of the engineer's controls, until pulled up.
Murphy Siding What effect would the movement of the train- going from 59(?) mph on the mainline and taking a quick right hand turn- have on the crew's ability to grasp the situation and react in a hurry? Would that maneuver have thrown them out of their seats?
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The P42s that I've been on have WABCO EPIC air brake. The only difference between the P42 and the freight engines is the brake interface for the cab signal and ACSES equipment.
As far as I know the ACSES overlay on ATC equipment is limited to the NE Corridor.
Murphy Siding BigJim Murphy Siding Tree and/or 243129- can you explain the orientation of the cab equipment that would cause 243129 to say that the engineer would have to leave his seat? Because the Emergency button is on the conductor's side in plain site, I can read it from here. That red button on the engineer's side is the "Cab Signal Acknowledge" button. Enlarge the picture to read the label. The engineer moves the brake handle all the way forward to put the brakes in emergency, just like on any other automatic brake valve. Thanks for the explanation.
Thanks for the explanation.
Amazing.
Attention Overmod. Is this quote attributed to you? "My practical running experience"
243129 "I haven't looked at the P42 cab set up, but I highly doubt it is equipped with a 26L brake valve. " You are correct Jeff it is a 30cdw. That was an error on my part. Talking GE and thinking EMD.
"I haven't looked at the P42 cab set up, but I highly doubt it is equipped with a 26L brake valve. "
You are correct Jeff it is a 30cdw. That was an error on my part. Talking GE and thinking EMD.
No it is not WABCO 30 CDW. The Big "K" on the valve portion means its a Knorr (NYAB) AB probably CCAB2.
The EPIC equipped engines would have the big "W" on them.
30CDW is also WABCO, just an upgraded 26L.
Lets all sit down and take a deep breath. The name calling is not good and only makes enemies. I have some railroad experience in the management side. Done a few cab rides but in no way am I a novice let alone an expert on train operation. I am a retired professional engineer (oil and gas) and can do some pseudo educated analysis but I would not post them as knowing what is going on. I can talk about train operations to a person unfamiliar with them (my wife??) and she would think I am an expert. A knowledgable person could really poke holes in my story so I keep my mouth shut. Think we should wait for the professional analysis from the FRA to see what really happened. STOP THE NAME CALLING!
Good post from ccltrains.
Certainly we're all angry about this and so possibly what's going on here is just some old-fashioned venting of frustration.
At this point, really, what more is there to be said about this topic?
Absolutely, "Let's all sit down and take a deep breath."
Overmod For those of you who may be interested, here is an 'official' P42 video with some elementary discussion of controls. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRValOA7TZo The emergency application button is around 25 minutes in; I think it's intended as the 'assistant engineer's' way to put the train in emergency, as it nominally does the same thing as the 'emergency' position on the engineer's blended brake controller does. It releases by pulling.
The emergency application button is around 25 minutes in; I think it's intended as the 'assistant engineer's' way to put the train in emergency, as it nominally does the same thing as the 'emergency' position on the engineer's blended brake controller does. It releases by pulling.
An emergency brake valve on the "other" side of the cab is standard on all locomotives. Might even be required in CFR...would have to look.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
It is required per CFR. Also on full carbody engines an emergency valve must be in the end of the carbody.
Randy Stahl 243129 "I haven't looked at the P42 cab set up, but I highly doubt it is equipped with a 26L brake valve. " You are correct Jeff it is a 30cdw. That was an error on my part. Talking GE and thinking EMD. No it is not WABCO 30 CDW. The Big "K" on the valve portion means its a Knorr (NYAB) AB probably CCAB2. The EPIC equipped engines would have the big "W" on them. 30CDW is also WABCO, just an upgraded 26L.
You are referring to the posted image.
Are you absolutely sure that Amtrak P-42 #47 is not equipped with the 30 cdw brake valve?
No matter the emergency position is the same and does not require the engineer to "reach for a button".
243129 Randy Stahl 243129 "I haven't looked at the P42 cab set up, but I highly doubt it is equipped with a 26L brake valve. " You are correct Jeff it is a 30cdw. That was an error on my part. Talking GE and thinking EMD. No it is not WABCO 30 CDW. The Big "K" on the valve portion means its a Knorr (NYAB) AB probably CCAB2. The EPIC equipped engines would have the big "W" on them. 30CDW is also WABCO, just an upgraded 26L. Are you absolutely sure that Amtrak P-42 #47 is not equipped with the 30 cdw brake valve?
Wabco equipment NEVER has the KNORR airbrake logo on it. 30 CDW is a WABCO product.
Randy Stahl 243129 Randy Stahl 243129 "I haven't looked at the P42 cab set up, but I highly doubt it is equipped with a 26L brake valve. " You are correct Jeff it is a 30cdw. That was an error on my part. Talking GE and thinking EMD. No it is not WABCO 30 CDW. The Big "K" on the valve portion means its a Knorr (NYAB) AB probably CCAB2. The EPIC equipped engines would have the big "W" on them. 30CDW is also WABCO, just an upgraded 26L. Are you absolutely sure that Amtrak P-42 #47 is not equipped with the 30 cdw brake valve? Wabco equipment NEVER has the KNORR airbrake logo on it. 30 CDW is a WABCO product.
Who ever said it did ???
You did. You said it was 30CDW and it clearly isn't. It would have the WABCO logo on it if it did, not the KNORR logo.
Randy Stahl You did. You said it was 30CDW and it clearly isn't. It would have the WABCO logo on it if it did, not the KNORR logo.
Pay attention, I was not referring to the image.
All this superfluous speculation aside, human error is the most likely cause. Medical events and terrorism/vandalism can be considered. Someone reported clear of the main line or someone assumed (perhaps the dispatcher) that the main line was clear and consequently #91 was released.
On my home road when manual block rules were substituted for ABS rules we were required to approach all facing point switches prepared to stop.
No argument there. I agree that is likely the CSX crew left a fatal trap for an unsuspecting crew.
Next time you are on a P42 look at the top portion of the blue card and you will discover the air brake type and schedule. I won't be able to find out until tomorrow.
Randy Stahl It is required per CFR. Also on full carbody engines an emergency valve must be in the end of the carbody.
Thanks! Now, I don't have to look it up!
Firelock76Absolutely, "Let's all sit down and take a deep breath."
Totally. Just the act of standing at one's computer can cause lower back pain and make you cranky.
Still in training.
Randy Stahl No argument there. I agree that is likely the CSX crew left a fatal trap for an unsuspecting crew. Next time you are on a P42 look at the top portion of the blue card and you will discover the air brake type and schedule. I won't be able to find out until tomorrow.
Any P-42 I have been on was equipped with the CDW-30 brake valve.
LithoniaOperator Firelock76 Absolutely, "Let's all sit down and take a deep breath." Totally. Just the act of standing at one's computer can cause lower back pain and make you cranky.
Firelock76 Absolutely, "Let's all sit down and take a deep breath."
Pain possibly even lower than that while sitting and reading certain threads!
ChuckCobleighPain possibly even lower than that while sitting and reading certain threads.
243129 Randy Stahl No argument there. I agree that is likely the CSX crew left a fatal trap for an unsuspecting crew. Next time you are on a P42 look at the top portion of the blue card and you will discover the air brake type and schedule. I won't be able to find out until tomorrow. Any P-42 I have been on was equipped with the CDW-30 brake valve.
Perhaps it's been several yearssince you've been on a P42. They were rebuilt several years ago using TIGER grant money. At that time they were upgraded to this:
http://www.nyabproducts.com/ccb-26/
All of the P42s were upgraded as far as I know. I'll check the list tomorrow. The old P40s did have WABCO 30CDW. The P40s were also at that time equipped with the GE IFD displays which require an electronic airbrake to interface with, 30 CDW is NOT an electronic airbrake.
The conductor’s widow’s lawsuit cites 28 safety issues with CSX and 9 with Amtrak. Is the public allowed access to such a complaint in a civil suit?
It would be interesting to see what these 37 points are. I believe that in such litigation, some (maybe many) points are real stretches, almost bargaining chips to give up in negotiation.
Perhaps we have an attorney or two out there to explain?
The trial record and any appeal proceedings will be published if the trial is held in South Carolina; I don't know if there is public-records access before then. Mike Cella lived in Florida so it's possible some proceedings would be brought there.
Presumably you can find the specific name of the action (e.g. Cella v. CSX Transportation). In South Carolina multiple defendants are often subsumed under the name of the first one. Suspect some of the relevant points of South Carolina law would follow JT Baggerly v. CSX Transportation, which to me has multiple similarities.
Personally I don't think we have any real business mucking around in the next-of-kin's lives. It's pretty clear what the safety issues are without having to see what lawyers develop to capitalize on other people's pain.
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