BaltACD Euclid It is up to Congress to shut down operations not having PTC or to let them run without it. They are in the driver’s seat. http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2016/09/29/hoboken-crash-pelosi-rips-congress-for-delaying-ptc-deadline.html It isn't 12/31/2018 - YET!
Euclid It is up to Congress to shut down operations not having PTC or to let them run without it. They are in the driver’s seat. http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2016/09/29/hoboken-crash-pelosi-rips-congress-for-delaying-ptc-deadline.html
http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2016/09/29/hoboken-crash-pelosi-rips-congress-for-delaying-ptc-deadline.html
It isn't 12/31/2018 - YET!
I understand that. I am just saying that if there are any complaints about the delay of PTC, blame Congress.
Euclid BaltACD Euclid It is up to Congress to shut down operations not having PTC or to let them run without it. They are in the driver’s seat. http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2016/09/29/hoboken-crash-pelosi-rips-congress-for-delaying-ptc-deadline.html It isn't 12/31/2018 - YET! I understand that. I am just saying that if there are any complaints about the delay of PTC, blame Congress.
NO! Blame the speed of invention. When PTC was mandated it DID NOT EXIST as a product available for purchase. The product had to invented, developed and tested. It is still in the development and testing stage. Samsung has had such great success in unleashing Galaxy 7 on the world, do you want PTC to be the same kind of product - offering something and having ot catch on fire when it comes time to be used.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I'm trying to understand the track layout there. So the trains come in head first to the station? Do they then back out and rejoin the main to cross the river into NYC? I assume Hoboyken isn't a termination point. What am I missing here?
BLS53 I'm trying to understand the track layout there. So the trains come in head first to the station? Do they then back out and rejoin the main to cross the river into NYC? I assume Hoboyken isn't a termination point. What am I missing here?
BaltACD Euclid BaltACD Euclid It is up to Congress to shut down operations not having PTC or to let them run without it. They are in the driver’s seat. http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2016/09/29/hoboken-crash-pelosi-rips-congress-for-delaying-ptc-deadline.html It isn't 12/31/2018 - YET! I understand that. I am just saying that if there are any complaints about the delay of PTC, blame Congress. NO! Blame the speed of invention. When PTC was mandated it DID NOT EXIST as a product available for purchase. The product had to invented, developed and tested. It is still in the development and testing stage. Samsung has had such great success in unleashing Galaxy 7 on the world, do you want PTC to be the same kind of product - offering something and having ot catch on fire when it comes time to be used.
Well if the implementation is to be determined by the speed of the invention, it will never happen because nobody can say how long the invention should take. With all the money to be made in the development of the invention, it will go on forever.
Congress wants it to happen, so they set a time limit. The industry failed to meet the time limit, so Congress extended it. That cycle will probably repeat. Congress has the choice to once again extend the limit or let the law force the shut down of non-PTC complying trains.
In the meantime, every time there is a big crash, the public will demand to know why PTC did not prevent it.
Look through the NJT expenditures I posted - NJT contracted in 2011 for $151M for development and installation of PTC.
http://www.njtransit.com/tm/tm_servlet.srv?hdnPageAction=AwardsTo
Google Maps of the Hoboken Terminal.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.73527,-74.02926,664m/data=!3m1!1e3
BaltACD Look through the NJT expenditures I posted - NJT contracted in 2011 for $151M for development and installation of PTC. http://www.njtransit.com/tm/tm_servlet.srv?hdnPageAction=AwardsTo Google Maps of the Hoboken Terminal. https://www.google.com/maps/@40.73527,-74.02926,664m/data=!3m1!1e3
I don't understand your point.
schlimm Buslist schlimm No PTC. Surprised? No. But I'll bet victims and their families are angry about the delays in implementation, especially on commuter and passenger lines.
Buslist schlimm No PTC. Surprised?
schlimm No PTC.
No PTC.
Surprised?
No. But I'll bet victims and their families are angry about the delays in implementation, especially on commuter and passenger lines.
Everything I have read states PTC is not applicable to this situation, and that the terminal is exempt from it. Not sure on the truth to this, but if the terminal is a restricted speed area, it sounds legit.
An "expensive model collector"
Yes, Hoboken is a termination point. From there riders cross the Hudson either by ferry or PATH train which is totally different system with no physical connection to NJ Transit. Here's my question, I am sure that the engineer rides in the forward facing control car with the engine in the back pushing. How in the good Lord's name did he survive Going thru the bumping post and the concrete walkways?
n012944 schlimm Buslist schlimm No PTC. Surprised? No. But I'll bet victims and their families are angry about the delays in implementation, especially on commuter and passenger lines.
Buslist schlimm No PTC. Surprised? No. But I'll bet victims and their families are angry about the delays in implementation, especially on commuter and passenger lines.
Buslist
schlimm No PTC. Surprised?
schlimm
?? That confuses me... are you saying that because a terminal is a restricted speed it should be exempt from PTC?
Seems to me that any place that is a restricted speed would be the intended place where PTC would be of most value.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
The local news stations here in NY/NJ all had an interview with a man who identified himself as an NJT mechanic, who witnessed the crash. He stated that the cab car climbed over the bumper and traveled several feet in the air before crashing down. This suggests that the engineer's cab went over the bumper rather than slam into it. About 6 PM, the local stations were reporting that the engineer had been released from the hospital.
Semper VaporoSeems to me that any place that is a restricted speed would be the intended place where PTC would be of most value.
Problem is that restrcited speed isn't a speed - it's a method of operation. How do you enforce it through PTC? It's the most basic of operations - pretty much "don't hit stuff". A lot of that stuff can be things that aren't connected to the signal system, but you still can't hit.
80. MOVEMENT AT RESTRICTED SPEED Movements made at Restricted Speed must apply the following three requirements as the method of operation: 1. Control the movement to permit stopping within one half the range of vision short of: a. Other trains or railroad equipment occupying or fouling the track, b. Obstructions, c. Switches not properly lined for movement, d. Derails set in the derailing position, e. Any signal requiring a stop, AND 2. Look out for broken rail and misaligned track. AND 3. Do not exceed 20 MPH outside interlocking limits and 15 MPH within interlocking limits. This restriction applies to the entire movement, unless otherwise specified in the rule or instruction that requires Restricted Speed.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Bob Schuknecht BLS53 I'm trying to understand the track layout there. So the trains come in head first to the station? Do they then back out and rejoin the main to cross the river into NYC? I assume Hoboyken isn't a termination point. What am I missing here? The trains are push-pull. The train was running with the cab control car at the head end and the engine pushing from the rear.
The trains are push-pull. The train was running with the cab control car at the head end and the engine pushing from the rear.
That they're push-pull, doesn't answer my question.
Semper VaporoEverything I have read states PTC is not applicable to this situation, and that the terminal is exempt from it. Not sure on the truth to this, but if the terminal is a restricted speed area, it sounds legit. ?? That confuses me... are you saying that because a terminal is a restricted speed it should be exempt from PTC? Seems to me that any place that is a restricted speed would be the intended place where PTC would be of most value.
PTC would have value in APPROACHING a zone of restricted speed; however, in the Restricted Speed zone PTC has NO VALUE. See Zug's explanation of Restricted Speed. Restricted Speed is visual railroading.
Goodtiming Yes, Hoboken is a termination point. From there riders cross the Hudson either by ferry or PATH train which is totally different system with no physical connection to NJ Transit. Here's my question, I am sure that the engineer rides in the forward facing control car with the engine in the back pushing. How in the good Lord's name did he survive Going thru the bumping post and the concrete walkways?
Thank you. For those of us unfamiliar with the area, one generally visualizes these stops as a run through with a small station and platform. Because that's how it usually is with commuter rail. This one is obviously different.
I suppose there's limits to the amount of rail traffic that can go through what bridges and tunnels are available. I thought ferry transfers were relegated to the 19th century. Sounds like a heck of an ordeal to get to and from work everyday.
Let's say that the New York City area is a bit different, with the Hudson River as a great barrier to surface transportation entering Manhattan from New Jersey.
At the beginning of service to Manhattan from New Jersey, the only way to cross the river was by ferry (there was quite a bit of river traffic at that time). Even the mighty Pennsylvania required transfer to/from ferries until the current tunnels were built. The then Hudson and Manhattan opened its first tunnels (from Hoboken into downtown Manhattan) in 1909, and the H&M (now PATH) was a popular link for people arrivng/departing on the Lackawanna.. Later, tunnels were built into what became the World Trade Center, and extended from Newark into Manhattan.
There were also ferries connecting Manhattan with the terminii of the other roads that ended on the west bank of the Hudson. However, by 1960 there were no more ferries (I think I am right on this); when I arrived in Hoboken by train in 1969, I rode PATH into downtown Manhattan.
Since that year, ferries have again been instituted between Manhattan and Hoboken, reviving the use of the ferry slips in that beautiful building which is shown in an earlier post on this thread.
Johnny
BLS53Sounds like a heck of an ordeal to get to and from work everyday.
That's the price you pay if you want a high paying "downtown" job but choose to live in the "out in the country" low-rent district...
As for the engineer - one report has it that the cab car rode up over the bumper and continued into the building. Had the cab car encountered a larger immovable object, the result would have been vastly different, both for the engineer and the passengers.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
BaltACD Semper Vaporo Everything I have read states PTC is not applicable to this situation, and that the terminal is exempt from it. Not sure on the truth to this, but if the terminal is a restricted speed area, it sounds legit. ?? That confuses me... are you saying that because a terminal is a restricted speed it should be exempt from PTC? Seems to me that any place that is a restricted speed would be the intended place where PTC would be of most value. PTC would have value in APPROACHING a zone of restricted speed; however, in the Restricted Speed zone PTC has NO VALUE. See Zug's explanation of Restricted Speed. Restricted Speed is visual railroading.
Semper Vaporo Everything I have read states PTC is not applicable to this situation, and that the terminal is exempt from it. Not sure on the truth to this, but if the terminal is a restricted speed area, it sounds legit. ?? That confuses me... are you saying that because a terminal is a restricted speed it should be exempt from PTC? Seems to me that any place that is a restricted speed would be the intended place where PTC would be of most value.
I understand the point that restricted speed is based on visually identifying various obstacles, and the PTC cannot control that. But why would there need to be a restriced speed zone approaching the bumper? It is the same obstacle in the same place every day, so why not just set a speed limit, and have PTC just monitor the actual speed as the train approaches that obstacle?
Just set the speed limit approaching the bumper, and PTC will stop the train if it exceeds the speed limit.
We call it Hoboken Terminal, but it's Lackawanna Terminal, Hoboken.
Thank you for confirming "push-pull" operation. I suspected as much when I saw one report saying that the engineer and conductor survived when they "were in the back of the train."I've gone out on limbs before (and haven't always been right), but I suspect that the engineer somehow became incapacitated, in spite of his clean health record. It happens...happened to me, sort of. Sad.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
When traveling at restricted speed, you must be able to stop within one-half the distance of your line of sight--and your line of sight will vary as you move; therefore your maximum allowable speed will vary as you move. You cannot have a set speed limit of so many mph under such a circumstance.
When the CZ backs into Denver, the conductor, who is standing at the rear, continually tells the engineer, who cannot see what the conductor sees, what his line of sight is (in so many cars), and as the train backs around the curves, the conductor's line of sight varies. The same applies in Salt Lake City when a detour across Wyoming is necessary, except that the eastbound Zephyr backs out of the station, whereas the westbound Zephyr backs into the station (and it is usually dark when #5 arrives).
Have no idea of PTC architecture but;
Why not have a time out circuit that prevents trains from approaching speed restrictions too fast ?. Know of at least one such such location on a BNSF ( AT&SF ) ATS division that has a time out circuit mainly for passenger trains. The NY city subways have time out circuits that will stop a subway train if it exceeds whatever speed limit for any segment ? It would seem that a simple PTC command to stop a train if it excees a pre determined speed into a terminal would be is easily accomplished ?
An example ( not necessarily the actual numbers ) would be at 200 ft from bumper post 10 MPH and 100 ft from bumper 5 MPH. Otherwise a stop command to train is issued. There aare many other stations that could use this feature BON, BOS, WASH, MIA, CHI, LAX to name a few..
This solution would certainly have been easier if ATC, ATS has been the PTC choice
zugmann Semper Vaporo Seems to me that any place that is a restricted speed would be the intended place where PTC would be of most value. Problem is that restrcited speed isn't a speed - it's a method of operation. How do you enforce it through PTC? It's the most basic of operations - pretty much "don't hit stuff". A lot of that stuff can be things that aren't connected to the signal system, but you still can't hit. 80. MOVEMENT AT RESTRICTED SPEED Movements made at Restricted Speed must apply the following three requirements as the method of operation: 1. Control the movement to permit stopping within one half the range of vision short of: a. Other trains or railroad equipment occupying or fouling the track, b. Obstructions, c. Switches not properly lined for movement, d. Derails set in the derailing position, e. Any signal requiring a stop, AND 2. Look out for broken rail and misaligned track. AND 3. Do not exceed 20 MPH outside interlocking limits and 15 MPH within interlocking limits. This restriction applies to the entire movement, unless otherwise specified in the rule or instruction that requires Restricted Speed.
Semper Vaporo Seems to me that any place that is a restricted speed would be the intended place where PTC would be of most value.
Thank you for the explanation. Helps to have a good definition of the terms.
Still, point 3. above seems to be something that PTC could be used to limit the speed to one of those as a maximum. Something that in the present event was above those values.
blue streak 1Why not have a time out circuit that prevents trains from approaching speed restrictions too fast ?.
I think that's part of the overall plan of PTC. I could be wrong.
This particular incident appears to have occurred inside the trainshed. I would question the accuracy of GPS in that situation. Other means, like transponders on the track, might be a better choice there.
Without seeing the ETT, we can't know what the speed restrictions are there. I would opine that the train came into the station well over what most would consider reasonable and prudent, whether the area was supposed to be restricted speed or not.
I agree that PTC could have prevented this crash by simply controlling the speed. That would have nothing to do with what is called Restricted Speed.
Euclid BaltACD Semper Vaporo Everything I have read states PTC is not applicable to this situation, and that the terminal is exempt from it. Not sure on the truth to this, but if the terminal is a restricted speed area, it sounds legit. ?? That confuses me... are you saying that because a terminal is a restricted speed it should be exempt from PTC? Seems to me that any place that is a restricted speed would be the intended place where PTC would be of most value. PTC would have value in APPROACHING a zone of restricted speed; however, in the Restricted Speed zone PTC has NO VALUE. See Zug's explanation of Restricted Speed. Restricted Speed is visual railroading. I understand the point that restricted speed is based on visually identifying various obstacles, and the PTC cannot control that. But why would there need to be a restriced speed zone approaching the bumper? It is the same obstacle in the same place every day, so why not just set a speed limit, and have PTC just monitor the actual speed as the train approaches that obstacle? Just set the speed limit approaching the bumper, and PTC will stop the train if it exceeds the speed limit.
So what speed do you want PTC to hit the bumper at?
There are collision posts in the cab end of the car. Not as good as in a locomotive but enough in this case to protect the engineer from fatal injuries, after hitting a wall. This is FRA standards hard at work.
BaltACD Euclid BaltACD Semper Vaporo Everything I have read states PTC is not applicable to this situation, and that the terminal is exempt from it. Not sure on the truth to this, but if the terminal is a restricted speed area, it sounds legit. ?? That confuses me... are you saying that because a terminal is a restricted speed it should be exempt from PTC? Seems to me that any place that is a restricted speed would be the intended place where PTC would be of most value. PTC would have value in APPROACHING a zone of restricted speed; however, in the Restricted Speed zone PTC has NO VALUE. See Zug's explanation of Restricted Speed. Restricted Speed is visual railroading. I understand the point that restricted speed is based on visually identifying various obstacles, and the PTC cannot control that. But why would there need to be a restriced speed zone approaching the bumper? It is the same obstacle in the same place every day, so why not just set a speed limit, and have PTC just monitor the actual speed as the train approaches that obstacle? Just set the speed limit approaching the bumper, and PTC will stop the train if it exceeds the speed limit. So what speed do you want PTC to hit the bumper at?
I would want it to stop the train before it hits the bumper.
IIRC the speed restrictions start on the west side of the Bergen Hill tunnel. When a train emerges from the Bergen Hill Tunnel it should be down to 10mph. Pre NJTransit it may have been faster.
Normal train speeds are quit slow within the terminal 10mph. I think there is a slight downgrade from the tunnel into the terminal.
Euclid I agree that PTC could have prevented this crash by simply controlling the speed. That would have nothing to do with what is called Restricted Speed.
but it does. Read the PTC requirements, they are available on the net. This was a point of contention at the PTC RSAC group.
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