petitnj Here you see the consequence of a "20 step process" to allow equipment on the right-of-way. Any one step in the 20 step process is forgotten or misinterpreted and the accident occurs. The 20 step process is so complex that any thing done wrong causes an accident. Now they will add steps 21, 22 and 23 (maybe even 24) and the possibility of error remains the same. Some one in the area of safety should suggest to the rule makers that making the rules more complex does not make the rules safer -- quite the opposite. As rules become more complex they are easy to misunderstand. Since the existing rule was suppolsed to make the work safe, the error comes in assuming rules make it safe. People make it safe.
Here you see the consequence of a "20 step process" to allow equipment on the right-of-way. Any one step in the 20 step process is forgotten or misinterpreted and the accident occurs. The 20 step process is so complex that any thing done wrong causes an accident. Now they will add steps 21, 22 and 23 (maybe even 24) and the possibility of error remains the same. Some one in the area of safety should suggest to the rule makers that making the rules more complex does not make the rules safer -- quite the opposite. As rules become more complex they are easy to misunderstand. Since the existing rule was suppolsed to make the work safe, the error comes in assuming rules make it safe. People make it safe.
I agree. Overly complex and many-stepped routines are harder to internalize (yes, they have a checklist, I would hope, but things work better when you "know" the drill) and are much more likely to have an error.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
The images I saw, the engine looked like it had been hit on the corner. Perhaps the MOW equipment was not on the same track, but was over hanging.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
The Philadelphia Inquirer has a story about it, but not much more info than anyone else at this time.
Maybe a bit more since they're the closest to the accident than other media outfits.
www.philly.com
Print articles with Amtrak derailment reported south of Philadelphia
Washington Post
http://wapo.st/1qoONun
USA Today
http://usat.ly/1SLeSwZ
Paul of CovingtonPlease, let's not do this again.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
schlimm tree68 schlimm I hope the headline is an indication of a new policy of a non-blaming, non-insulting tone to describe incidents in which trains strike bystanders, whether those bystanders work for the rails or not. It's not the bystanders whose role gets questioned... This is a workplace incident. There are people to blame - procedures apparently weren't followed, etc. No one intentionally played "chicken" with the devil here. Most of the victims you label as "stupid" or "Darwin Award winners" aren't playing chicken either. These crews (or the dispatcher that possibly put the Amtrak train on a track under work) made an avoidable mistake, depending on circumstances. But if you were capable of consistency, you'd probably say something boorish about them as well. Victims of accidents and their families need our compassion, not piling on.
tree68 schlimm I hope the headline is an indication of a new policy of a non-blaming, non-insulting tone to describe incidents in which trains strike bystanders, whether those bystanders work for the rails or not. It's not the bystanders whose role gets questioned... This is a workplace incident. There are people to blame - procedures apparently weren't followed, etc. No one intentionally played "chicken" with the devil here.
schlimm I hope the headline is an indication of a new policy of a non-blaming, non-insulting tone to describe incidents in which trains strike bystanders, whether those bystanders work for the rails or not.
It's not the bystanders whose role gets questioned...
This is a workplace incident. There are people to blame - procedures apparently weren't followed, etc.
No one intentionally played "chicken" with the devil here.
Most of the victims you label as "stupid" or "Darwin Award winners" aren't playing chicken either. These crews (or the dispatcher that possibly put the Amtrak train on a track under work) made an avoidable mistake, depending on circumstances. But if you were capable of consistency, you'd probably say something boorish about them as well. Victims of accidents and their families need our compassion, not piling on.
Please, let's not do this again.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Excerpt from Associated Press
U.S. Sen. Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., told reporters at a New York news conference on another subject Sunday that he was told by Amtrak board chairman Anthony Coscia that the workers killed were the backhoe operator and a supervisor, both Amtrak employees. He said debris from the crash flew into the first two cars, causing the injuries to passengers.
Schumer said it's unclear whether the backhoe was performing regular maintenance, which is usually scheduled on Sunday mornings because there are fewer trains on the tracks, or whether it was clearing debris from high winds in the area overnight. But he said Amtrak has "a 20-step protocol" for having backhoes on the track, and no trains are supposed to go on a track where such equipment is present.
"Clearly this seems very likely to be human error," Schumer said, calling for Amtrak to review its processes. "There is virtually no excuse for a backhoe to be on an active track."
Who called someone "stupid"?
I hope I make it to retire, I got about 10 years left or a bit more... Odds are good but after seeing these things happen over the years, odds are not perfect.
Two railroad men didn't go home to thier families after work...
tree68This is a workplace incident. There are people to blame - procedures apparently weren't followed, etc.
That raises questions.
Did the MOW team have track time and were they working within the limits of such?
Could have the engineer violated the limits of said track time?
Could the dispatcher have unwittingly authorized the train through those work limits?
More questions we are not likely to know the answers to for some time. Certainly sounds like human error at this time but I will wait for more facts to surface.
Norm
schlimmVictims of accidents and their families need our compassion, not piling on.
You are absolutely correct.
However, a fellow who shows off by pointing his own gun at his own head and pulls the trigger because he's "sure" it's empty isn't a victim...
To be sure, his family deserves sympathy for his actions.
Methinks you subscribe to an overly broad description of what you believe folks consider a "Darwin" moment.
Welcome back Mr. Lion. No need to be a stranger.
schlimmMost of the victims you label as "stupid" or "Darwin Award winners" aren't playing chicken either. These crews (or the dispatcher that possibly put the Amtrak train on a track under work) made an avoidable mistake, depending on circumstances. But if you were capable of consistency, you'd probably say something boorish about them as well. Victims of accidents and their families need our compassion, not piling on.
I understand your position schlimm but respectfully suggest it's time for you to give it a break.
LION is here. Roumers that they put him in a zoo are without substance. But him stay on other side and play with his toy trains. Still as soon as somebody busts up a train, him comes here to get the whole story.
Greetings to all, Wildbeests will still be eaten.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
schlimmI hope the headline is an indication of a new policy of a non-blaming, non-insulting tone to describe incidents in which trains strike bystanders, whether those bystanders work for the rails or not.
mudchicken The NBC affiliate keeps showing images of a LORAM shoulder cleaner/ switch undercutter instead of a backhoe. Was it the conveyor boom on that thing instead of a backhoe that fouled and hit the coaches at window height?? M/W rules (Amtrak's and everyone else's) are emphatic on how you clear trains w/ men and equipment at less than 20 feet. All work stops, booms down (parallel or away from the track) and de-energized, people to a designated place of safety clear of the active track. If the train got out of it's limits, then all bets are off. Will be interesting on how this one plays out.
The NBC affiliate keeps showing images of a LORAM shoulder cleaner/ switch undercutter instead of a backhoe. Was it the conveyor boom on that thing instead of a backhoe that fouled and hit the coaches at window height??
M/W rules (Amtrak's and everyone else's) are emphatic on how you clear trains w/ men and equipment at less than 20 feet. All work stops, booms down (parallel or away from the track) and de-energized, people to a designated place of safety clear of the active track. If the train got out of it's limits, then all bets are off. Will be interesting on how this one plays out.
MC: At one point the News that was reporting the incident, panned off the ROW, and showed what possibly was a front wheel and partial axle, laying between some guy wires supporting lineside poles. It seemed to resemble the size and type of a wheel that could be found on a backhoe...[And yes, they also showed, from a distance, what could have been the LORAM-type machine you described, but no mention made that it was involved in the incident. ]
samfp1943 Early News reports are Two killed when Amtrak train struck a Backhoe South of Phila. Apparently the machine was 'parked' on the tracks. Photos with story show windowe on passenger car knocked out and car side daqmaged. Details still sketchy. Note: To add some details: Incident location was actually in area of Chester Pa. on NE Corridor...Two killed were apparently MOW workers working with the Backhoe on the tracks. Reports are approx. thirty were injured on the train. The passengers [reported as about 341 on train] were evacuated to a local church.
Early News reports are Two killed when Amtrak train struck a Backhoe South of Phila. Apparently the machine was 'parked' on the tracks. Photos with story show windowe on passenger car knocked out and car side daqmaged. Details still sketchy.
Note: To add some details: Incident location was actually in area of Chester Pa. on NE Corridor...Two killed were apparently MOW workers working with the Backhoe on the tracks. Reports are approx. thirty were injured on the train. The passengers [reported as about 341 on train] were evacuated to a local church.
Another Amtrak v workcrew equipment incident. Sad for all concerned.
I hope the headline is an indication of a new policy of a non-blaming, non-insulting tone to describe incidents in which trains strike bystanders, whether those bystanders work for the rails or not.
Early News reports are Two killed when Amtrak train struck a Backhoe South of Phila. Apparently the machine was 'parked' on the tracks. Photos with story show window(S) on passenger car knocked out, and car side daqmaged. Details still sketchy.
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