Mobile operators use GPS to sync the clocks for the equipment at the towers. Their back end billing systems may be a different story, but I would be suprised if the call detail records are not accurate.
Now playing candy crush may be a different matter...
BaltACD I get the feeling that the cell phone carrier doesn't have their clock synced with GMT - maybe off by 10 to 15 minutes in either direction - which is making it diffcult to correlate to the real world. If they are checking individual cell tower records, it may be that each tower has it's own clock and those clocks are not syncronized with any other...
I get the feeling that the cell phone carrier doesn't have their clock synced with GMT - maybe off by 10 to 15 minutes in either direction - which is making it diffcult to correlate to the real world.
If they are checking individual cell tower records, it may be that each tower has it's own clock and those clocks are not syncronized with any other...
I'd be stunned if a carrier's system was even 30 seconds off, unless there were some severe momentary system-wide fault occuring. Checking my own carrier against WWV shows that they are typically within a couple seconds of UTC, and never more than 10 seconds off. And THAT inaccuracy may be internal to my phone's clock display, rather than the carrier.
I may be completely mistaken about this, but I believe the cell sites have to be centrally synchronized, as it affects their hand-off to other sites and location services.
BTW, (and this may be answered as I read further) does anyone know if the locomotive's event recorder is kept time-sync'd all the time, or if it's synched once a day, or what? Not that it's necessarily important... Just my idle curiosity.
tree68 Euclid In fact at this point, I assume the he is to blame. You know what they say about "assume." Besides, in this country, a person is innocent until proven guilty. Once all other possibilities are ruled out, then it's likely he will be found to be at fault. I am just predicting what the NTSB will find. Or at least what you think they will find. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. I'm waiting for their report.
Euclid In fact at this point, I assume the he is to blame.
You know what they say about "assume." Besides, in this country, a person is innocent until proven guilty. Once all other possibilities are ruled out, then it's likely he will be found to be at fault.
I am just predicting what the NTSB will find.
Or at least what you think they will find. Maybe they will, maybe they won't.
I'm waiting for their report.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Norm48327 Euclid My point also has nothing whatsoever to do with the amount of time it is taking. Go back and read your own posts. You once said it could be done in a couple hours. Euclid It is about credibility. Yours seems to be faltering.
Euclid My point also has nothing whatsoever to do with the amount of time it is taking.
Go back and read your own posts. You once said it could be done in a couple hours.
Euclid It is about credibility.
Yours seems to be faltering.
EuclidWould you please cite your source for saying: “the NTSB has publicly said they can do it” in reference to confirming the cell phone use.
Sure no problem. Its at the bottom of the link YOU provided.
In a Congressional hearing a Representative asks him if they can determine if he was using the phone and the NSTB rep says yes.
"Maloney pressed Hart for his assurance that the NTSB will be able to, at some point, definitively determine whether Bostian had used his phone during the crucial time period.
"Yes," Hart insisted. "We'll coordinate that with a number of different time sources to make sure to verify the accuracy of it. Because that's very crucial to get that right. Obviously."
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
EuclidWhen I said I could write the final report, I did was not referring to a report on MY investigation. I was referring to the actual report that the NTSB will write. I certainly have no preference for hanging the engineer, as you say. I don’t believe the NTSB does either. In the final NTSB report, I don’t expect it to even criticize the actions of the engineer, let alone blame him. How could it? There is no way to prove that the engineer knowingly did something wrong. The final report will be an infomercial lecturing everybody on the need to press ahead with PTC.
How do you know the engineer isn't to blame or that the NTSB couldn't blame him if you don't know the cause?
It is just as probable a that the cause was the engineer got distracted by all the SEPTA train stuff, forgot where he was, opened up on the throttle, then suddenly realized he was still south of Frankford Jct and plugged the train too late. Actually I think that is way more probable than a lot of the stuff that's been tossed out here because of its simplicity, it doesn't require multiple hordes of rock throwing people, it doesn't require a vast conspiracy, It doesn't require all sorts of technology failures. All it requires is one guy thinking about something else for about 5 minutes. Was that the cause? Dunno. But its one option.
I will post the "Probably Cause" section of the Chattsworth derailment as something to compare some of the comments about the NTSB will or won't say about the cause. They clearly put the onus on the engineer in that case. PTC was just an "oh by the way" contributing cause, not the primary cause.
"Probable CauseThe National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the September 12, 2008, collision of a Metrolink commuter train and a Union Pacific freight train was the failure of the Metrolink engineer to observe and appropriately respond to the red signal aspect at Control Point Topanga because he was engaged in prohibited use of a wireless device, specifically text messaging, that distracted him from his duties. Contributing to the accident was the lack of a positive train control system that would have stopped the Metrolink train short of the red signal and thus prevented the collision."
PS: If you read the Chattsworth press releases about the cell phone analysis they read almost verbatim to the what the NTSB has said in the press releases on the Frankford Jct derailment.
EuclidIt is not a huge mistake to announce the sun is going to rise and set, as you say, but it was huge mistake to announce the intent to check for cell phone use
Given the previous history of cell phones being involved with such incidents, they would be foolish not to note that they were checking on that factor.
Euclidand then to announce how hard it is to find the answer and avoid being wrong.
Given the variables outlined here, I give them credit for noting that they are being thorough and ensuring that their final findings will be accurate.
I will agree that based on previous reactions to incidents, when all is said and done an agenda may well become apparent. For the moment, they're investigating. These things take time. In the fire service the investigations can take a year for a line-of-duty death.
We've hashed out possibilities based on what we've been able to observe. The rest will have to wait until the investigation is complete.
Philly Mag.: Truly inept and biased reporting.
..."whether Brian Bostian was using his cell phone...." is highlighted to emphasize ."...Brian Bostian was using his cell phone...."
Disgusting. Next, are they going to suggest we just haul him out and hang him?
Tom
(edited)
EuclidMy point also has nothing whatsoever to do with the amount of time it is taking.
EuclidIt is about credibility.
Norm
Deleted
gardendance Euclid It was a huge mistake to go public with all of this, starting with the announcement that they were going to check the engineer's cell phone records. Maybe I'm uncommon, but my common sense would be amazed if they didn't check the engineer's cell phone records. I don't see why one would list announcing that the sun is going to appear to set tonight and appear to rise tomorrow as the start of a series of huge mistakes.
Euclid It was a huge mistake to go public with all of this, starting with the announcement that they were going to check the engineer's cell phone records.
It was a huge mistake to go public with all of this, starting with the announcement that they were going to check the engineer's cell phone records.
Maybe I'm uncommon, but my common sense would be amazed if they didn't check the engineer's cell phone records. I don't see why one would list announcing that the sun is going to appear to set tonight and appear to rise tomorrow as the start of a series of huge mistakes.
ricktrains4824Time zone issues..... Sure.....
Times are displayed on the phone as as local times, but the system stores them as universal time. They have to be converted to local time which includes both the time zone and things like daylight savings time. A lot of the smaller carriers buy network access from the larger carriers. I buy phone service from MyLocal phone company, but MyLocal phone company doesn't own any cell towers. It contracts with Verizon for phone service, Sprint for texting and AT&T for data service. Now I have up to 5 timestamps I have to verify for all the activity, the one in my phone, the one in MyLocal system and the 3 in each of three different companies depending on the message type.
It certainly can be done (and contrary to what has been posted in previous messages the NTSB has publicly said they can do it) but it does take some work. I am confused at the uproar because the NTSB is doing a thorough job. If it was me being investigated, I would want them to take as much time as they needed.
Norm48327 Euclid I could write their final conclusion right now. I bet you could, and it would be just as wrong as you have been on derailments. You would simply hang the engineer without further ado; no need to find facts. Rumor and inuendo will suffice. NTSB will, after the investigation, list the probable cause and a list of contributing factors. Should the engineer's cell phone be a factor, they will say so. In the meantime, they can not condemn him based on hearsay or speculation.
Euclid I could write their final conclusion right now.
I bet you could, and it would be just as wrong as you have been on derailments. You would simply hang the engineer without further ado; no need to find facts. Rumor and inuendo will suffice.
NTSB will, after the investigation, list the probable cause and a list of contributing factors. Should the engineer's cell phone be a factor, they will say so. In the meantime, they can not condemn him based on hearsay or speculation.
According to the link, the engineer gave them the password for his phone, so, directly from the phone they have the time stamps. The NTSB then stated, "texts are in one time zone, voice in another" and that the only one who knows what time zone is what is the carrier....
Hate to tell you all this, but, if his phone is like mine, the time stamps on texts and calls is LOCAL TIME.
So much for a complicated issue....
They now appear to be looking for something that is not present, at least to me. And, of my entire family, including my extended family I have access to phones, all 7 of us have different phones, all 7 have time stamps in the phones in LOCAL TIME.
Time zone issues..... Sure.....
Lets just say I now no longer believe a single statement made by NTSB anymore on this accident.
Ricky W.
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1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
EuclidAt one point, they even blamed the cell phone carrier for having inaccurate time stamps. The point is that if they finally tell us they have the right answer, how can we be sure, considering how confused they said they were?
Could ou please cite where they said that. All I read in the article you cited was that they said the different communication modes were in different time zones and it was going to be a challenge to match them up. I didn't read anywhere in that article where they said the phone company had inaccurate time stamps. Perhaps if you actually read the artice it would help your understanding. But then again the pupose of the article is to be sensational and biased so you have to filter out the author's agenda.
Patrick Boylan
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BaltACDI get the feeling that the cell phone carrier doesn't have their clock synced with GMT - maybe off by 10 to 15 minutes in either direction - which is making it diffcult to correlate to the real world.
The part that a lot of people are missing is a short phrase in the new magazine's article and covered in more detail in the NTSB news release. Its the part about "other data systems" in the article and in the NTSB news report it mentions the engine event recorder and the dispatching systems. In order to answer the question its not only a mtter of time, its where the engineer was and what was the train doing. Was the train in a station? Was the train stopped? Was the train moving? Was it before or after the incident? Was it on the approach to the curve? To get the complete picture you have to know where the phone was when whatever communication was made. That means not only syncing up the timestamps of the phone system but the timestamps of the systems on the engine and the signal system.
That takes some work.
You keep telling us how much experience you have in the railroading field. Perhaps you would like to divulge that information and how much experience you have in accident investigation. It would be interesting reading to say the least. I haven't read good fiction in some time.
Time for a reality check.
Euclid http://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/06/03/amtrak-crash-cell-phone/
http://www.phillymag.com/news/2015/06/03/amtrak-crash-cell-phone/
The NTSB were asked directly in that hearing about the engineer's cell-phone use. So they had to answer. Sounds to me like they were being properly circumspect, and very careful not to indict the engineer without having all the facts. I really don't see how all the criticism here is justified.
/Mr Lynn
BaltACD I get the feeling that the cell phone carrier doesn't have their clock synced with GMT - maybe off by 10 to 15 minutes in either direction - which is making it diffcult to correlate to the real world.
That might be true of the accounting systems used by the cellco's.
If they are checking individual cell tower records, it may be that each tower has it's own clock and those clocks are not syncronized with any other.
Some of the communication protocols used by the cell systems required that time be matched to on the order of a microsecond - especially E911 locating using tower triangulation. My somewhat educated guess is that the clocks are kept in synchronism. I'd be surprised if the individual cell towers kept detailed records of the calls made through that tower.
- Erik
Oh Philly Mag. Engineer’s name in bold, fire-engine-red link.
Just because we expect times to be standardized - doesn't mean they actually are.
I am just thinking outloud - I have no proof of what I have said.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
They have botched it by going public with all the talk about how difficult and confusing it is to figure out the answer, and by admitting that they are worried about making a mistake because they have made a mistake with the same thing in the past. They may very well find the right answer. But they have compromised their credibility to claim that they have the right answer. It was a huge mistake to go public with all of this, starting with the announcement that they were going to check the engineer's cell phone records.
At one point, they even blamed the cell phone carrier for having inaccurate time stamps. The point is that if they finally tell us they have the right answer, how can we be sure, considering how confused they said they were?
I would have thought that since they have had problems with this process in the past, they would have learned not to talk about it until they closed the deal.
Euclid The way the NTSB has botched this cell phone issue ....
For the NTSB to announce going after the records and then to announce that it is too complicated for them
By going public with all of that, there is no way they are going to be able to legally defend a finding of cell phone use.
http://www.ntsb.gov/Pages/default.aspx
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