Cool story. Might as well not exist. All the use it is here.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann A study that we don't know exists,
A study that we don't know exists,
I know it exists as I helped write it but the person that commissioned it, and whose property it is, passed away recently and is unable to release it to the public.
oltmannd Euclid Incidentally, we are all free to believe what it appears to us. Yes, including flat earth, alien abductions and Amtrak LD train profitablilty.
Euclid Incidentally, we are all free to believe what it appears to us.
Yes, including flat earth, alien abductions and Amtrak LD train profitablilty.
+1
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
EuclidIncidentally, we are all free to believe what it appears to us.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Norm48327 Bucky, When the hole is getting deeper it is best to stop digging. Most reasonable people would do that.
Bucky,
When the hole is getting deeper it is best to stop digging. Most reasonable people would do that.
Norm
oltmannd Euclid Notice the language: The National Transportation Safety Board said its analysis of phone records "does not indicate that any calls, texts or data usage occurred during the time the engineer was operating the train." Now, the only question left is whether the NTSB analysis of phone records is correct or complete. Why would it be incorrect or incomplete?
Euclid Notice the language: The National Transportation Safety Board said its analysis of phone records "does not indicate that any calls, texts or data usage occurred during the time the engineer was operating the train." Now, the only question left is whether the NTSB analysis of phone records is correct or complete.
Notice the language:
The National Transportation Safety Board said its analysis of phone records "does not indicate that any calls, texts or data usage occurred during the time the engineer was operating the train."
Now, the only question left is whether the NTSB analysis of phone records is correct or complete.
Why would it be incorrect or incomplete?
oltmanndDoes the NTSB have a track record of slopply investigative work?
Nope; they are extremely thorough. They dig deep to find all the minute and seemingly obscure details. Reading their final reports, you will find there is almost always a chain of events leading to the accident. They will also publish a list of contributing causes. They try very hard not to jump to any conclusions.
OTOH, one poster consistently jumps to conclusions of his own making and several posts back was ready to hang the engineer without evidence of any wrongdoing.
oltmanndHe either made a tragic error by losing track of where he was on the RR or was somehow incapacitated. We may never know. This was a sad, tragic event, all the way around.
Don't think it can be said any better.
Why would it be incorrect or incomplete? Does the NTSB have a track record of slopply investigative work?
I'm not surprised he wasn't using his phone. RR workers have very good work ethic w.r.t. safety rules.
Not that it's more than "just prior to the accident". It's for the whole time he was operating that train. Every bit of anecdotal evidence points to this guy being a stickler for rules and had a great passion for his job. He either made a tragic error by losing track of where he was on the RR or was somehow incapacitated. We may never know.
This was a sad, tragic event, all the way around.
Enough already with your paranoid obsessions. The NTSB made a determination. Enough said.
Quote:
In an updated report, the National Transportation Safety Board said its analysis of phone records "does not indicate that any calls, texts or data usage occurred during the time the engineer was operating the train."
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/ntsb-amtrak-engineer-cellphone-crash-31660084
Or not ...
http://wtop.com/national/2015/06/ntsb-to-release-info-on-whether-amtrak-engineer-was-on-phone-during-derailment/
To add the drama of announcing the upcoming announcement is quite telling. If the finding were that the engineer was using his cell phone on duty, that would be plenty dramatic. It would not need added drama of making news out of the fact that the NTSB has found the answer.
wanswheel Excerpt from Reuters, June 9 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/10/us-usa-train-engineer-idUSKBN0OQ05320150610 After weeks of sorting through complex and contradictory phone service data, U.S. investigators have determined whether an Amtrak engineer was using his cellphone last month when his train derailed along a curve in Philadelphia, two sources said on Tuesday... The National Transportation Safety Board is expected to release its latest findings on Wednesday morning.
I am going out on a limb and predicting that they have found that the engineer was not using his cell phone.
If they say he was using his cell phone, everyone will accept that as the truth. If they say he was not using his cell phone, I wonder what the reaction will be.
One thing to remember with all of the accident studies is that in any case it is normally dealing with a very small number of failures.
Even if the engineer just totally blew off the speed restriction, if you look at the performance of all engineers slowing down for all curves, its pretty easy to get to 5 or 6 sigma performance. That means they are successful 99.999999% of the time. Literally a failure is one in a million. Still doesn't mean that preventing failure isn't important, just that its important to understand that the occurance of failure is very, very, very low.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
BuslistBut in a study I can't release ( and no longer have access to but it was done for WC) showed single person operation railways around the world had better safety records than those with multi person operation. Just laying out facts ! The former COO, now retired, of BHP Billiton (that operates 400 car + ore trains with driver only) that his drivers would revolt if they tried to put someone else in the cab. These guys have a very good safety record. Enough said.
Enough said? A study that we don't know exists, and the word of a manager?
Any study can be manipulated to show what the creator wants, and every manager would love to have one man in the cab. (saving$!)
And I don't think it's that easy to compare different operations in different continents with different work cultures, rules, working laws, etc, and call them equal.
Enough said.
zugmann Buslist So let's remember Chase Md had 2 persons in the cab, Silver Spring 3 persons in the cab (IIRC) most Class1 collisions, multiple folks in the cab, sounds like a proven solution! Now let's list the collisions PREVENTED by more than one man in the cab.
Buslist So let's remember Chase Md had 2 persons in the cab, Silver Spring 3 persons in the cab (IIRC) most Class1 collisions, multiple folks in the cab, sounds like a proven solution!
Now let's list the collisions PREVENTED by more than one man in the cab.
While I won't pretend to know what's better (Although I'm inclined to suspect that two individuals is better than one), that's exactly why something like this is worthwhile to investigate.
Someone mentioned the The Ballad of Casey Jones earlier in the thread, and how the fireman is being told to jump by the engineer, rather than the fireman trying to get Casey to slow down to prevent the accident from happening in the first place.
If we take the song as being fully accurate, not only is it quite possible that the fireman was busy with other chores and didn't realize what was happening until it was too late to do anything to help (Something that's much less of an issue in the diesel age), but how many ballads were never written because the fireman was there when things started to go haywire and was able to do something about it?
Crew size is anything but a forgone conclusion as far as I can see, and this is as good an opportunity as any to get the right people with knowledge of this industry to do a proper look at this topic and form a conclusion to help shape the future of American passenger rail.
wanswheelAfter weeks of sorting through complex and contradictory phone service data, U.S. investigators have determined whether an Amtrak engineer was using his cellphone last month when his train derailed along a curve in Philadelphia, two sources said on Tuesday...
... except they won't actually say until Wednesday.
zugmann Buslist So let's remember Chase Md had 2 persons in the cab, Silver Spring 3 persons in the cab (IIRC) most Class1 collisions, multiple folks in the cab, sounds like a proven solution! Now let's list the collisions PREVENTED by more than one man in the cab. Ok, so there is no data set for that, but I bet it's a hell of a lot more than the few incidents you listed.
Ok, so there is no data set for that, but I bet it's a hell of a lot more than the few incidents you listed.
But in a study I can't release ( and no longer have access to but it was done for WC) showed single person operation railways around the world had better safety records than those with multi person operation. Just laying out facts !
The former COO, now retired, of BHP Billiton (that operates 400 car + ore trains with driver only) that his drivers would revolt if they tried to put someone else in the cab. These guys have a very good safety record. Enough said.
BuslistSo let's remember Chase Md had 2 persons in the cab, Silver Spring 3 persons in the cab (IIRC) most Class1 collisions, multiple folks in the cab, sounds like a proven solution!
wanswheel Excerpt from FRA press release about a safety advisory, June 9 http://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L16415#p1_z5_gD_lPR If the railroad does not use ATC, ensure that all passenger train movements through the identified locations be made with a second qualified crew member in the cab of the controlling locomotive, or with constant communication between the locomotive engineer and an additional qualified and designated crewmember in the body of the train. Excerpt from the safety advisory The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) has taken the lead role conducting the investigation of this accident under its legal authority... As is customary, FRA is participating in the NTSB’s investigation and also investigating the accident under its own authority.
So let's remember Chase Md had 2 persons in the cab, Silver Spring 3 persons in the cab (IIRC) most Class1 collisions, multiple folks in the cab, sounds like a proven solution!
So let's Chase Md 2 persons in the cab, Silver Spring 3 persons in the cab (IIRC) most Class1 collisions multiple folks in the cab, sounds like a proven solution!
And at this crucial moment, the nation’s top railroad safety regulator is a former Facebook executive and White House adviser whose resume is long on communications and policy posts — and notably short on railroad expertise.
With all due respect -
What a self serving bunch of political CYA hog wash. Critical word in the entire release - RECOMMENDED.
Without a Emergency Order it is so much hot air.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
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