WizlishTo me it speaks volumes of self-serving CYA.
Could very well be. It's the trend these days.
Norm
Norm48327 wanswheel Spectrum acquisition in the Northeast Corridor is more complicated than in the rest of the country because Amtrak and the freight railroads are deploying two different PTC systems that were not engineered to be compatible. The systems can operate without difficulty when geographically separate from each other, but when operating in close proximity on the same spectrum, as in the Northeast Corridor, the systems can encounter significant challenges. So, unlike in a market such as Chicago, where the railroads will share the same block of spectrum and use a single PTC system, in the Northeast Corridor each PTC system requires spectrum far enough from the other’s to avoid the interference that could affect proper operations. That paragraph speaks volumes.
wanswheel Spectrum acquisition in the Northeast Corridor is more complicated than in the rest of the country because Amtrak and the freight railroads are deploying two different PTC systems that were not engineered to be compatible. The systems can operate without difficulty when geographically separate from each other, but when operating in close proximity on the same spectrum, as in the Northeast Corridor, the systems can encounter significant challenges. So, unlike in a market such as Chicago, where the railroads will share the same block of spectrum and use a single PTC system, in the Northeast Corridor each PTC system requires spectrum far enough from the other’s to avoid the interference that could affect proper operations.
That paragraph speaks volumes.
To me it speaks volumes of self-serving CYA.
In the FCC's own discussion of why it took so long to get the waivers for Amtrak's spectrum use, it clearly states that Amtrak chose the frequency range it did to give some compatibility with 'freight railroad' PTC that might be running over NEC trackage. The "problems" causing the holdup have been documented (again, largely by the FCC) to my satisfaction, although a little digging and 'connecting the dots' has to be done.
I also understand why PTC for a railroad expecting to operate an increasing part of its traffic at 150+ mph would be different, both in scope and operation, from a system 'acceptable' to freight railroads. What I don't yet understand is what this supposed 'interference' coming up in late May -- probably a result of Amtrak finally getting to modulate the spectrum it was granted waivers on at such a late date -- consists of. Whoever gets the hard detail -- post it here ASAP.
I am beginning to have my doubts that at least some of the engineers involved in the design of modern deterministic PTC systems actually understand modern best practices in software design. That is, I suspect, where the 'blame' for this emergent problem lies, not with Amtrak for having somehow intentionally chosen interfering spectrum (or whatever innuendo is being spieled forth here).
tree68Assuming that the engineer's cell phone was located and secured as evidence shortly after the incident, that question shouldn't be hard to answer, especially if he was incapacitated in any way.
The problem is that at some point not very long after the locomotive came to rest, Bostian apparently took out his cell phone and called 911 on it. But he says he has no memory of that.
Cell phones keep some records of airtime use, but I don't think they have a record of the clock times they are turned on, or a log of what app(s) they might be running. An exception might be something like the 'geolocation' scam crApple was running, where "location services" kept a continuous breadcrumb trail of position without telling the phone user -- I suppose the Feds are smart enough to look for that sort of thing.
The actual 'datum' of interest, as I see it, is the system time that the cell system identified the 911 call that came in from Bostian's phone. That is probably a 'stratum 1' time reference, but (unless 911 calls are timed differently from billed calls, which may be unlikely) would likely be tracked in 'six-second increments' (that's decimal minutes, for people who don't recognize why that time interval is used). Now it occurs to me that when a cell phone is first turned on, it may start responding to some progamming (for example, receiving 'push' notifications or downloading e-mail and the like) involving connection to the cellular data system. I'd think that would follow a recognizable pattern, depending on the phone and its settings.
I would 'speculate' that you have not heard this from any 'news source' so far, and that there's been no discussion of it in all the hearing testimony so far. I'm beginning to wonder (perhaps like the Christian Scientist with appendicitis) whether this whole affair is being spun out and gamed for complex, expedient advantage...
gardendance One indication that they resisted standardization is the railroads that had fifedoms, while so many others tried to use regular flutes and piccolos.
One indication that they resisted standardization is the railroads that had fifedoms, while so many others tried to use regular flutes and piccolos.
/Mr Lynn
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
wanswheelSpectrum acquisition in the Northeast Corridor is more complicated than in the rest of the country because Amtrak and the freight railroads are deploying two different PTC systems that were not engineered to be compatible. The systems can operate without difficulty when geographically separate from each other, but when operating in close proximity on the same spectrum, as in the Northeast Corridor, the systems can encounter significant challenges. So, unlike in a market such as Chicago, where the railroads will share the same block of spectrum and use a single PTC system, in the Northeast Corridor each PTC system requires spectrum far enough from the other’s to avoid the interference that could affect proper operations.
That paragraph speaks volumes. Every railroad has it's own little "fifedom" and no one can agree with the others. Had standardization been demanded at the outset the job may have been done by now. Of course, the number of federal agencies having a say in the matter doesn't make it any easier to navigate.
but other use of the phone has not been determined.
I don't know about Amtrak, but our rules state that cell phones will be off and stowed out of reach of the crewmember while in the cab and our DSLE is pretty adamant about it. I'm pretty sure the FRA would be as well.
Assuming that the engineer's cell phone was located and secured as evidence shortly after the incident, that question shouldn't be hard to answer, especially if he was incapacitated in any way.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Buslist But in a study I can't release ( and no longer have access to but it was done for WC) showed single person operation railways around the world had better safety records than those with multi person operation. Just laying out facts ! The former COO, now retired, of BHP Billiton (that operates 400 car + ore trains with driver only) that his drivers would revolt if they tried to put someone else in the cab. These guys have a very good safety record. Enough said.
But in a study I can't release ( and no longer have access to but it was done for WC) showed single person operation railways around the world had better safety records than those with multi person operation. Just laying out facts !
The former COO, now retired, of BHP Billiton (that operates 400 car + ore trains with driver only) that his drivers would revolt if they tried to put someone else in the cab. These guys have a very good safety record. Enough said.
The study was done for the WC ? Is that the same WC (Wisconsin Central) whose owner went on to create the MM&A, whose one man crude oil train operation is credited with the worst rail disaster in recent memory (Lac Megantic) ?
MurrayIts a shame that Raymond Burr and William Hopper are no longer with us. They could have had this solved in an hour.
They could have had this solved in an hour.
Yes, but ...
only in the last 3 minutes of the hour!
Euclid What I wonder is whether the analysis is over, or if this is just an update in the analysis so far.
What I wonder is whether the analysis is over, or if this is just an update in the analysis so far.
Your analysis or their analysis? I'm pretty sure your analysis will go on forever.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
ricktrains4824 Sorry, but to quote Judge Judy, if you can't show it, you can't prove it, so it does not exsist.
Sorry, but unless you can provide a link that shows where Judge Judy said that, she didn't say it and your quote doesn't exist. 8-)
Its a shame that Raymond Burr and William Hopper are no longer with us.
Use of the cell phone while operating the train would be improper.
Non-use of the cell phone while operating the train would be proper.
Use of the cell phone while not operating the train would be proper.
No murk. No mruk either.
Tom
The mruky part is that Bella Dinh-Zarr, vice chairman of NTSB, testified before the Senate Commerce Science and Transportation Committee hearing on passenger rail safety on Wednesday. She said that the engineer driving Amtrak train that derailed in Philadelphia was not talking, texting or using data while operating the train but other use of the phone has not been determined. (AP)
Bella Dinh-Zarr, vice chairman of NTSB, testified before the Senate Commerce Science and Transportation Committee hearing on passenger rail safety on Wednesday. She said that the engineer driving Amtrak train that derailed in Philadelphia was not talking, texting or using data while operating the train but other use of the phone has not been determined. (AP)
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD If the spokeswoman that presented the 'phone info' is the best they have - I am losing faith in what the investigation will present as their conclusions - it is begining to sound like a political cover-up as the phone matter was closed on 'talk, text & data' but left open on other phone uses Apps and such - they are highly desirous of hanging him on some kind of phone transgression.
If the spokeswoman that presented the 'phone info' is the best they have - I am losing faith in what the investigation will present as their conclusions - it is begining to sound like a political cover-up as the phone matter was closed on 'talk, text & data' but left open on other phone uses Apps and such - they are highly desirous of hanging him on some kind of phone transgression.
It doesn't sound like that to me. In regards to the cell phone, their statement seems crystal clear to most folks (except Euclid).
“Analysis of the phone records does not indicate that any calls, texts, or data usage occurred during the time the engineer was operating the train. Amtrak’s records confirm that the engineer did not access the train’s Wi-Fi system while he was operating the locomotive.”
So he did not use his cell in any manner, either through 4G or the train's Wi-Fi. What part of that is murky?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Here's the Post story, such as it is, regarding cellphone use. Is anyone surprised at the 'conclusion'? (Now to see if all the nasty little people 'supposing' in the comments of all those other stories apologize, and if this story gets the widespread news coverage the ones about the original investigation did ... I'm not holding my breath.)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/amtrak-train-engineer-was-not-on-cellphone-ntsb-says/2015/06/10/44d08046-0f74-11e5-a0dc-2b6f404ff5cf_story.html?hpid=z1
Looks like they gave this to a reporter whose work also includes such classics as "Spuds spilled!", the cross-dressing Walmart peeping Tom, and the rabid raccoon.
Senate Democrats expressed deep concern Wednesday that railroad operators nationwide were not moving quickly enough to install train safety technology that experts say would have prevented the Amtrak crash that killed eight passengers last month.
The Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee hearing comes as two groups of senators have proposed giving railroad operators more time to implement the technology, and one day after the House voted to slash Amtrak’s budget.
EuclidSo all you can do is look for blank spots where no evidence resides. The more lack of evidence you find, the more likely that none exists.
George O. Smith, the science-fiction writer, correctly speculated on the design of the uranium bomb by observing what 'disappeared' from the scholarly papers in physics starting in the late Thirties...
The trick is in knowing enough about what 'ought' to be there in a fair inquiry, and then noting the presence or absence of activity.
It is true that one of the premises behind the 'Big Lie' is that if you can swing a preponderance of evidence behind something phony, you can just let ordinary misunderstandings of statistics do most of the rest of the work for you. On the other hand, those who do understand the statistics may remain unbamboozled.
Buslist zugmann A study that we don't know exists, I know it exists as I helped write it but the person that commissioned it, and whose property it is, passed away recently and is unable to release it to the public.
zugmann A study that we don't know exists,
A study that we don't know exists,
I know it exists as I helped write it but the person that commissioned it, and whose property it is, passed away recently and is unable to release it to the public.
Sorry, but to quote Judge Judy, if you can't show it, you can't prove it, so it does not exsist.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
zugmann oltmannd He either made a tragic error by losing track of where he was on the RR or was somehow incapacitated. We may never know. This was a sad, tragic event, all the way around. Don't think it can be said any better.
oltmannd He either made a tragic error by losing track of where he was on the RR or was somehow incapacitated. We may never know. This was a sad, tragic event, all the way around.
Don't think it can be said any better.
dehusman BaltACD If it isn't released in public - it doesn't exist. If you don't release your social security number to the public does that mean you don't have a social security number? If a major railroad doesn't publish an operating plan does that mean the operating plan doesn't exist and they don't run any trains? I have seen and participated in a lot of studies for different companies that will never be released to the public, but that doesn't mean they aren't valid or that they don't exist. All it means is that they can't be quoted examined on a public forum. It called proprietary information. If one doesn't trust the person offering the unpublished information and thinks they are mistaken or lying, then one won't accept it. If one trusts the person offering the information and thinks they are telling the truth, then one will accept it.
BaltACD If it isn't released in public - it doesn't exist.
If it isn't released in public - it doesn't exist.
If they can't be quoted and examined in a public forum - in that public forum they don't exist. They become personal opinion only, for the person stating them.
You don't refer to a study that nobody has access to and then end your message with "enough said". Like the existence of a study that nobody can read is the end of the discussion.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
Commissioned studies are normally intended to 'prove' the position of the entitity that commissioned the study; figures developed will be interperted in view of the 'intended purpose' of the study.
ie. American Petroleum Institute studies will not tout the efficiency of wind power when comparing each source of power.
Norm48327 oltmannd Does the NTSB have a track record of slopply investigative work? Nope; they are extremely thorough. They dig deep to find all the minute and seemingly obscure details. Reading their final reports, you will find there is almost always a chain of events leading to the accident. They will also publish a list of contributing causes. They try very hard not to jump to any conclusions.
oltmannd Does the NTSB have a track record of slopply investigative work?
Nope; they are extremely thorough. They dig deep to find all the minute and seemingly obscure details. Reading their final reports, you will find there is almost always a chain of events leading to the accident. They will also publish a list of contributing causes. They try very hard not to jump to any conclusions.
I once was onboard with this, but then worked closely with them on one derailment investigation and it was the feeling of my co workers ( worldwide experts on the issue) and myself that a piece of evidence was not being ignored but being downplayed to advance what appeared to be an agenda that someone had ( that lead investigator was later let go from the NTSB but now has a prominent role in the railway safety world. Incidently ran across that same person investigating a derailment in Australia, very similar to this one where it appeared that the driver fell asleep). Anyway that has led to my feeling that the NTSB investigations ain't alwsys what I once thought they were.
I hear X-Files is going to be firing off a few new episodes.
There surely seems to be enough material in this thread for at least one of them.
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