NTSB has a moral, ethical, and I believe legal obligation to abstain from the piecemeal chipping away of Bostian's presumption of innocence. Say he did or didn’t cause the crash or shut up.
The NTSB hasn't really discussed many details. They have mostly said things that were "not" and very little about what "was".
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
So, what does all this mean? Is it wrong for the NTSB to be disscussing details in public or not?
schlimm (B) would deprive a person of a right to a fair trial or an impartial adjudication
(B) would deprive a person of a right to a fair trial or an impartial adjudication
The NTSB report inevitably and appropriately will be published. In the meantime, Bostian is already a defendant in civil lawsuits seeking punitive damages against him, personally, in addition to whatever the plaintiffs hope to collect from Amtrak. These cases won’t be settled before the final report, but if a popular mythology of 188 takes hold, similar to ‘OJ did it,’ it might not matter enough if the final report says, ‘not necessarily.’
The proceedings are secret and closed and there is no judge, but the findings are usually published, especially those of investigative juries. If a criminal grand jury, any indictments are public. The secret, Inquisition-like 'Star Chamber' concept was addressed (banned) in the 5th Amendment.
FOIA applies to Federal executive agencies, such as NTSB. It allows for 9 exceptions and #7 (A and B) may apply in this case because of possible criminal proceedings to follow.
7. records or information compiled for law enforcement purposes, but only to the extent that the production of such law enforcement records or information (A) could reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings, (B) would deprive a person of a right to a fair trial or an impartial adjudication, (C) could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy, (D) could reasonably be expected to disclose the identity of a confidential source, including a State, local, or foreign agency or authority or any private institution which furnished information on a confidential basis, and, in the case of a record or information compiled by a criminal law enforcement authority in the course of a criminal investigation or by an agency conducting a lawful national security intelligence investigation, information furnished by a confidential source, (E) would disclose techniques and procedures for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions, or would disclose guidelines for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions if such disclosure could reasonably be expected to risk circumvention of the law, or (F) could reasonably be expected to endanger the life or physical safety of any individual;[
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
wanswheel I think it’s known as grand juries. Do they have reporters in the room?
None that I am aware of. Prosecutor presents his case with his witnesses and his documents. There is no defense presentation. Grand Jury then decides if there is enough evidence to return an indictment of charges. The charges are then made public. The proceedings of the Grand Jury process are not in the public domain.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Individuals and organizations are investigated all the time and the knowledge of that is made public. It's known as participatory democracy as opposed to police states, where investigations are secretive.
schlimm wanswheel NTSB seems to have no choice but to give unsatisfying answers to questions seldom asked (on TV) about lower-profile investigations. It would be better if they could just say, sorry, that’s classified, we’ll have that information in the final report. Think about your 2nd sentence: the word "classified." Have we become so complacent with or conditioned to secrecy, that in what should be a public investigation, ongoing information is withheld?
wanswheel NTSB seems to have no choice but to give unsatisfying answers to questions seldom asked (on TV) about lower-profile investigations. It would be better if they could just say, sorry, that’s classified, we’ll have that information in the final report.
I would respectfully submit that it is not so much a case of "secrecy" or that material needs to be "classified" from the public
The investigators are conducting a thorough analysis of the entire accident event.
They are going from the "known" to the "unknown." As they obtain their analytic findings, they will then be included into the final NTSB report.
Euclidthey feel tremendous public pressure to explain how the bad thing happened, and how it will be made to never happen again.
Bingo!
They have to say something to keep the public happy but won't divluge information or details that may compromise the fairness of the investigation.
Norm
I have wondered about that too. Why do they tell us anything? In a way, not saying anything while the investigation is ongoing would be the safe and logical way to handle it. It is almost surprising that they tell us anything. And when they do, it seems like much of the revelations backfire and come back to bite.
In thinking about that, I conclude that they feel tremendous public pressure to explain how the bad thing happened, and how it will be made to never happen again. That is their job, and they don’t want to be seen falling down. So they tell us things about the accident to inspire our political confidence in them. Basically, the public sees this as a big deal, and they want an explanation now.
So, I see the NTSB as walking a tightrope between the choice to tell us things, and the option to not tell us.
WDGF I did not know that. That helps clarify the complication with what I thought was a simple records check. I'm not sure why the carrier would be unable to convert the times, though. I would think they must be using some form of universal time, coverted to the time zone.
gardendance n012944 You know, it is possible to use your smart phone without making a phone call or texting. Is Amtrak's wifi strong enough to connect to it from the engine? Even if the wifi reaches, the investigators say they're checking calls and texts. Why would Bostian have been trying to operate the engine, AND make calls and texts, AND try to use his phone's wifi capabilities?
n012944 You know, it is possible to use your smart phone without making a phone call or texting. Is Amtrak's wifi strong enough to connect to it from the engine?
You know, it is possible to use your smart phone without making a phone call or texting. Is Amtrak's wifi strong enough to connect to it from the engine?
Even if the wifi reaches, the investigators say they're checking calls and texts. Why would Bostian have been trying to operate the engine, AND make calls and texts, AND try to use his phone's wifi capabilities?
Apple products permit one to send texts, or iMessages as Apple calls them, to other Apple devices without using the cellular network. I don't know if Andriod or Windows phones do as well.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201287
Now, by no means am I saying the engineer was doing that. I am pointing out that in todays world it takes a lot more than just pulling cell phone companies records to cover one's bases.
An "expensive model collector"
Jeff,
"No evidence of (insert whatever here) failure/discrepancies" is pretty much NTSB boilerplate. I've seen a lot of that in aviation accident reports. What they are really saying is "We didn't find anything". It's a CYA thing.
zugmann I've never run passenger trains, but I have run extremely short trains at track speed. You are constantly adjusting throttle and brakes with them. They require a lot of effort and concentration to run. I really don't see how anyone can play on a phone while doing it. I don't buy the whole cell phone thing at all. And I don't think the NTSB is pandering to the union. If they were - they wouldn't release useless, fact-less preliminary reports that only cast shadows of doubt on the engineer. I agree.
I've never run passenger trains, but I have run extremely short trains at track speed. You are constantly adjusting throttle and brakes with them. They require a lot of effort and concentration to run. I really don't see how anyone can play on a phone while doing it. I don't buy the whole cell phone thing at all.
And I don't think the NTSB is pandering to the union. If they were - they wouldn't release useless, fact-less preliminary reports that only cast shadows of doubt on the engineer.
I agree.
Johnny
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
wanswheel...For instance, if a call is placed in Washington, it may be handled by a switching center in Atlanta and the cellphone record will show the time zone of the call as being the same as the cell tower at that location...
I did not know that. That helps clarify the complication with what I thought was a simple records check. I'm not sure why the carrier would be unable to convert the times, though. I would think they must be using some form of universal time, coverted to the time zone.
Euclid They probably have 700 consultants on the payroll to investigate the cell phone records, and they all want to milk the task for all it’s worth. After this dragged on for more than a few days, the question became moot. To take this long and publically cry about how complicated it is basically destroys the evidence. The only thing they can do now is announce that they have found that the engineer did not use his cell phone.
I bet that they will say there is no evidence that he used his cell phone. Not that they have found that he didn't use it. (Unless they found evidence that he did, or may have, used it.)
I'm sure some, like others have said, think he was using it but can't prove it. Saying there is no evidence of use let's one read between the lines of what they really think.
Jeff
Wizlish Now, what I'm wondering is "did Bostian make a 911 call when stuff hit his train" and not after the crash as he said. But the timestamps involved would be significant in the minutes, not hours, if that were the case. Nothing else involving calls, or texts, or using the phone's camera, etc. makes any particular sense.
Now, what I'm wondering is "did Bostian make a 911 call when stuff hit his train" and not after the crash as he said. But the timestamps involved would be significant in the minutes, not hours, if that were the case. Nothing else involving calls, or texts, or using the phone's camera, etc. makes any particular sense.
And 911 SHOULD have a record of that call, IF it went through. But Bostian has already said that his phone was stowed and turned off. If true then after having radioed the Septa train he passed at North Philly then instead of radioing that he had been hit he would have had to unstow his phone and turn it on. This is despite his conductor saying they had overheard him radioing that he had been hit, which investigators say they have no evidence. I think you're really stretching it to think he put down the radio he had used at North Philly, and decided to use his phone instead to call 911.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
I believe the NTSB is just being extra careful with evidence in a case whose cause was pretty obvious early on. Why? Because of not wanting to ruffle the union's feathers. That and the differences between fact gathering in an investigation and evidence gathering for a criminal prosecution.
zugmann BaltACD If the NTSB had reasonable evidence that the engineer was on a cellphone at the time of the incident, they would have announced it by now - the fact that they are 'still reviewing the records' - to me says they want to find him on the phone but can't find any evidence to corroborate that position. And if they keep playing this game, the short-attention-spanned public will just think he was. Sickening.
BaltACD If the NTSB had reasonable evidence that the engineer was on a cellphone at the time of the incident, they would have announced it by now - the fact that they are 'still reviewing the records' - to me says they want to find him on the phone but can't find any evidence to corroborate that position.
Kinda kills Bucky's two hour theory, doesn't it?
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