BaltACDPanic is still Panic. One's thought processes are greatly dimished in times of Panic. What is one of the definitions of a leader - 'The person that keeps his head under control when all those around him are losing their.' Panic kills.
Panic kills.
Yes, absolutely. As I mentioned in a post above:
“Part of the problem is that a gate coming down on a vehicle is more than just an inconvenience. It can be a distraction or cause a driver to panic.”
The obvious danger on a crossing is getting trapped on the track. A secondary problem is getting trapped on the crossing, but clear of the track. In this situation, a gate can come down on the vehicle, or just trap the vehicle between the gate in the track. Neither scenario is life threatening because the car will be clear of the track.
However, having the gate come down onto a vehicle; or trapping the vehicle very near the track can cause panic. The panic might cause a driver to impulsively make a wrong move that results in the car being struck by the train. I think that this is a key point about the effect of getting struck or trapped by the gates, while clear of the track.
This is why the message about the gates being breakable for escape should be instilled in the minds of drivers.
Panic is still Panic. One's thought processes are greatly dimished in times of Panic. What is one of the definitions of a leader - 'The person that keeps his head under control when all those around him are losing their.'
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
EuclidPerhaps the driver in the Valhalla crash would have backed out from under the gate if she had realized that it was a recommended option in such a case.
Granted, that sounds mean, but oftimes people are more worried about stuff like a scratch on their new car than the fact that they are about to get hit by a train. I mean, how often do people get hit by trains? It couldn't possibly happen to me...
All the signs in the world aren't going to change a bad decision.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Drive thru gates to escape, would be good in cases where traffic in front has cleared, but if forward traffic has not cleared, the car is still trapped. There will always be a potential problem, if a vehicle procedes into the crossing, when there is not adaquate space for it beyond the far side of the tracks.
Crossing gates in Sweden have been fitted with signs on the inside of the gate, reading "Drive through the gate — don't stop on the track" over the last year, as a result of motorists getting caught between the gates and ending up getting hit by a train.
Official announcement (in Swedish) with a picture of gate with new sign on inside.
This is not just an American problem…
ACY Euclid: I won't argue about the opinions of Operation Lifesaver. But way back on page 3 (Feb. 8, 3:27 PM), didn't I suggest that lettering be placed on the INSIDE surface of the gate arm saying "Breakable Gate Arm" or "Gate Will Break" or some similar wording? A major part of this problem is that the driver who gets trapped between the gates seems to be unaware that escape is possible. Tom
Euclid:
I won't argue about the opinions of Operation Lifesaver. But way back on page 3 (Feb. 8, 3:27 PM), didn't I suggest that lettering be placed on the INSIDE surface of the gate arm saying "Breakable Gate Arm" or "Gate Will Break" or some similar wording? A major part of this problem is that the driver who gets trapped between the gates seems to be unaware that escape is possible.
Tom
I think that is an excellent idea. I talked to Operation Lifesaver today and had a very meaningful discussion. I suggested these two safety enhancements:
1) Add a sign or message directly on the gates saying that the gates are designed to break so a driver can break their vehicle free if it is trapped by the gates.
2) Replace the DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS sign with the one I came up with that says STOP AND WAIT HERE IF VEHICLES ARE ON CROSSING
The person I spoke to said they were very good ideas, and he will take them forward within Operation Lifesaver and the FRA for a thorough review.
One possibility regarding a hesitation to inform drivers about the gates being breakable is that it might encourage truckers to run the gates simply by breaking through them.
Euclid BroadwayLion This particular intersection/Crossing is somewhat different. Except for an accident on the Taconic State Parkway with traffic diverted to Commerse Street, Commerce is nothing more than a little country lane with little to no traffic on it. My point is not that the entire problem is with the Valhalla crossing. I understand that it was an unusual event for it to be crowded. Being little used, that crossing could very well be closed. I expect that it will be closed due to how the crash has highlighted it. My point is that the Valhalla crash has demonstrated what happens when a line of tightly spaced traffic inches across a grade crossing, particularly a gated crossing. And I assume that this happens regularly at dozens, if not hundreds, of grade crossings in urban areas every day. I think this is a major danger, and the existing system is incapable of dealing with it. The obvious perfect solution is to close those crossings, except for the fact that it is economically impossible unless maybe undertaking it with a 100-year-plan. So I look at the problem and see if there is something that can be improved to at least reduce the danger. I see an obvious problem with a sign that gives an important message which is not clearly connected to the proper action to take. And that is an important shortcoming because the proper action runs contrary to human nature when people are clawing their way through heavy traffic. Will people fail to read the sign? Sure. Will they fail to understand it? Sure. But is it not way better than providing a sign that commands a reaction to a contingency that is beyond a driver’s control unless he/she understands the underlying, unstated cause of that contingency? But there is even bigger a problem: My sign only requires traffic to do what the law requires without needing to carry a law book. But it still leaves an insurmountable problem. The problem is that the proper effect of heeding the law will slow down traffic because it fundamentally reduces road capacity. I calculated in a prior post, an average example of reducing traffic flow by 500%.
BroadwayLion This particular intersection/Crossing is somewhat different. Except for an accident on the Taconic State Parkway with traffic diverted to Commerse Street, Commerce is nothing more than a little country lane with little to no traffic on it.
Except for an accident on the Taconic State Parkway with traffic diverted to Commerse Street, Commerce is nothing more than a little country lane with little to no traffic on it.
And the point others have been trying to convince you of is that people have to learn not to stop on the tracks. That alone would solve the problem.
Norm
BroadwayLionThis particular intersection/Crossing is somewhat different. Except for an accident on the Taconic State Parkway with traffic diverted to Commerse Street, Commerce is nothing more than a little country lane with little to no traffic on it.
See how well signs are complied with in NS territory....
http://gizmodo.com/5955244/watch-this-bridge-destroying-dozens-of-trucks-and-buses
This particular intersection/Crossing is somewhat different.
Except for an accident on the Taconic State Parkway with traffic diverted to Commerse Street, Commerce is nothing more than a little country lane with little to no traffic on it. There is a reason why they call that town Valhalla -- It is 80% Cemetaries, and along that stretch of Commerce Street there is the Railroad and the Parkway to the east and a whole bunch of dead people to the west, and nothing else. That roac could easliy be removed together with the next crossing north whic ONLY serves the cemeteries to the West, and the one to the south whcih while it peters out in a cemetery does serve other communities, although that one would be more difficult to elevate.
The Taconic State Parkway is not much to speak of in that neighborhood either. IT COULD SERVE as the local street, and actually doesm until one gets to the Hawthorne Circle (Now just a super interchange) which is whre the real Parkway actually begins for all pratikal pourposes.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
This is a vehicle / DOT problem, not a railroad problem.
Install a second gate about 50' in front of the railroad gate. It will be one of those yellow and bloack things like are used in the parking lot. It the road beyond the tracks is clear the gate will go up and a green light will appear. The gate will then go down again and display a red light until the place beyond the gate is clear again. If a train comes (say the gates at the previous intersection went down, then the yellow gate will stay down until the train is passed.
This is called Traffic Metering.
Euclid STOP AND WAIT HERE IF VEHICLES ARE ON CROSSING
STOP AND WAIT HERE
IF VEHICLES ARE ON CROSSING
Your suggestion and replies brings forth another possible solution. In the far side of a crossing place a traffic sensor loop(s). Maybe an electric light system ? If the loop(s) detect a stopped vehicle that would activate a sign, other lights, traffic signal, etc on the near side. saying:
" STOP crossing not clear "
Once a stopped vehicle moves then sign would turn off.
By no means is this a complete solution especially if a tractor trailer is allowed to proceed to an insufficient opening. If built to restrict a TT then our idiot drivers would soon learn to cross over to space.
We have 3 crossings here where a highway parallel to the train tracks distance is actually less than a TT length with 1 just one car length to highway.. As you can guess have seen some hairy situations. That's why we usually stop at least 25 feet from gate until far side clears.
Euclid Norm48327 And how would you propose to enforce that? They can enforce it like they enforce all the other traffic laws. But first they have to recognize the problem, and the DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS sign is a clear indication of a failure to recognize the problem, as I have carefully explained above. There is a need for this traffic control at grade crossings, and it goes beyond the issue of warning of trains. I have revised my sign that I recommend for controlling the problem. This one says exactly what to do in the fewest words possible: STOP AND WAIT HERE IF VEHICLES ARE ON CROSSING The larger problem, however, is that this requirement, as I have explained, will increase traffic gridlock by maybe 5-10 times, depending on the crossing width. I doubt that will be deemed acceptable. So there is no solution to the problem, and the silly DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS sign is a feeble attempt to deny that lack of a solution.
Norm48327 And how would you propose to enforce that?
They can enforce it like they enforce all the other traffic laws. But first they have to recognize the problem, and the DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS sign is a clear indication of a failure to recognize the problem, as I have carefully explained above. There is a need for this traffic control at grade crossings, and it goes beyond the issue of warning of trains.
The larger problem, however, is that this requirement, as I have explained, will increase traffic gridlock by maybe 5-10 times, depending on the crossing width. I doubt that will be deemed acceptable. So there is no solution to the problem, and the silly DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS sign is a feeble attempt to deny that lack of a solution.
And here I thought the whole idea was to keep vehicles OFF the crossing.
I still don't see why some find the DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS less than adequate, it is short sweet and to the point.
The REAL problem isn't the sign anyway(regardless of WHAT wording is used) but the fact that common sense ISN'T COMMON any more, you shouldn't need to tell people not to enter a crossing until they can safely and COMPLETELY clear it.
Another sign that SHOULD be UN-Necessary is the "Fender Bender? Drive vehicles to the SHOULDER" signs. Yet I still see on a regular basis people exchanging Insurance info, in the TRAFFIC LANES, on the INTERSTATE, and then they can't understand WHY people are Honking at them. There are those that are still STUPID enough to believe that they can not move the vehicles until the Police show up, even in MINOR, NON-INJURY accidents. they don't understand, they are risking their own Safety, and increasing the chances of secondary accidents.
With more than 26 Years and 2,500,000 miles driving experience in Tractor Trailers, the Stupidity that I have seen on the roads is beyond mind boggeling, there is NOTHING that a motorist can do anymore that will surprise me. They may show me something I haven't seen yet, but it will take something truly, Impressively Stupid to surprise me.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
So, if there are no vehicles on the crossing, your sign is an invitation for them to pull up and stop there.
Just build the damn bridge and try to inconvenience the adjoiners as little as possible. The rules of the conservation of stupid will continue to apply in the sign department. (subset of the Army Axiom)
Norm48327And how would you propose to enforce that?
Considering the freak nature of this accident, and the rarity of it, I think we need to be mindful that creating solutions that are worse than the problem should be avoided at all costs. As noted earlier by many posters, as long as there are trains running, people will still manage to get hit by them.
One possible and somewhat easy solution to lower risk is an electronic stop sign activated in congested conditions. In the Cascades, there are a few speed limit signs that light up with different speed limits when the roads are icy. Perhaps a sign that is blank when roads are uncrowded but lit up as a stop sign when roads are backed up would be a low cost improvement. People, of course, may still run through it.
I think we need to remember, though, that the road in question was congested due to an emergency detour.
North of where I live here in Virginia is the town of Ashland. The old RF&P, now CSX mainline runs through the center of town and there's several grade crossings.
Traffic usually backs up a bit at the grade crossing in the downtown area. When I'm in town I NEVER stop on the tracks, I always maintain a more than good separation between myself and the car in front of me. When there's room on the other side, then I cross. You're behind me and in a rush? Too damn bad, you're going to wait!
But then, that's just me.
Euclid Here is the problem. There are times when slow congested traffic is passing over a grade crossing without actually stopping. A driver has no way of knowing whether the traffic will suddenly come to a stop when the driver is passing through the crossing. So the traffic control principle has to be that no driver ever should enter a crossing until it is completely clear of vehicles. The speed of the vehicles is irrelevant, but at higher speeds the problem of getting trapped on the crossing diminishes. But at say 10 mph, the problem is quite likely to occur. So what should a driver do when approaching in traffic moving continuously at 10 mph? In the first place, a vehicle can get trapped by the gates in traffic where the vehicle never stopped, simply because the traffic is moving very slowly. So the DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS sign does not even address this peril. A driver could get trapped by the gate although never stopping until that entrapment occurs. Here is what must be done when closely spaced traffic is approaching at 10 mph, but never stopping. Every vehicle must stop short of the crossing and wait until the vehicle ahead passes completely through the crossing. Only one at a time can cross. But this will add significantly to the already congested traffic. If the crossing is 100 feet wide, it will spread the closely spaced traffic out to have at least 100 feet of spacing between each vehicle. So a line of 100 vehicles (each 15 ft. long) approaching with 10 feet of vehicle spacing will be approximately 2,500 feet long. Once it crosses the track, every vehicle in the line will be spaced 110 feet from the next vehicle. So, after crossing the tracks, the line of vehicles will have grown from 2,500 feet long to 12,500 feet long. This added excess spacing caused by the grade crossing will reduce the capacity of the road and greatly add to the already overloaded condition and gridlock.
And how would you propose to enforce that?
Paul_D_North_Jr "The railroad also plans to paint “don’t block the box” stripping at the crossing this summer." [sic - should be "striping' - funny, the NYT editors/ style checkers must have missed that one !] - Paul North.
"The railroad also plans to paint “don’t block the box” stripping at the crossing this summer." [sic - should be "striping' - funny, the NYT editors/ style checkers must have missed that one !]
- Paul North.
Maybe they are showing us where their minds really are
A lot of these bad situations involve traffic congestion and back-ups across the tracks. Perhaps installing "ramp meters" with aggressive photo-enforcement (cameras)- which look like and can be enforced the same as regular traffic lights - to keep the volume and length of the queue down at the crossing - might be helpful, so that there is more room for trapped vehicles to escape. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramp_meter
http://azdot.gov/media/blog/posts/2014/02/05/ramp-meters-unappreciated-or-just-misunderstood-
greyhounds http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/nyregion/at-rail-crossings-in-new-york-area-a-constantly-lurking-danger.html
A couple quotes:
"The less expensive safety measures — automatic gates, lights, bells and signs — are largely in place in the New York region. A challenge is creating crossings that can overcome the lesser impulses of human nature in a part of the country where many people do not see patience as a virtue."
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/13/nyregion/at-rail-crossings-in-new-york-area-a-constantly-lurking-danger.html
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