Metro North, 6 dead

[edblysard]

That looks like a 650S....About $300,000.00 worth of carbon fiber sitting there.

[BaltACD]

edblysard wrote the following post yesterday:

Say it aint so...not a McLaren.....Wouldn't hurt so much is it was an Alfa.

Fortunately, it isn't anyone that I know in Jacksonville.

 

 

 

 

[samfp1943]

Sometime back there was an article, that reported abut the differences in the " Shifting Patterns' utilized by not only Domestic car makers, but differences in the 'shift patterns' utilized by foreign car makers, as well. Point being there was some discussion that the lady in the BMW in the Valhalla crash was a 'new' owner of her BMW, and there might have been some confusion on her part as to the position of the reverse position on her shift pattern(?)

Also this article in a Internet news source that states the following headline:                                     "Police ramp up rail-crossing citations after recent crashes"  By JIM FITZGERALD Associated Press (see linked)                                                                                                                        @ http://www.sanluisobispo.com/2015/03/29/3562204/police-ramp-up-rail-crossing-citations.html

FTA:[snip]'...The Federal Railroad Administration has called for police departments nationwide to add patrols and issue more citations as the first step in a safety campaign, and drivers in the New York suburbs are already seeing the results.

Police from the Metropolitan Transportation Authority are issuing six times as many summonses as they did last year to drivers who go around gates, stop on the tracks or drive distracted at grade crossings on the Metro-North and Long Island commuter railroads, spokesman Aaron Donovan said..."[snipped]

One has to wonder how long this 'extra effort' wil last, and will it have a long term effect on the motoring public, in that area?

 

Read more here: http://www.sanluisobispo.com/2015/03/29/3562204/police-ramp-up-rail-crossing-citations.html#storylink=cpy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Euclid]

From that article above posted by wanswheel:

“He [the driver behind the victim] said they were inching down the hill when the crossing gate, with its lights flashing, came down and hit the roof of the woman's car before sliding off and getting stuck on the back.”

 

We will never know for sure, but not wanting to bust through the gate as apparently would have been necessary for backing up strikes me as the most obvious reason why she went forward instead of backward. 

Also, the driver behind her said he motioned for her to back up and made room for her.  But he does not know if the victim saw his hand motions to back up because he had his headlights on and they may have prevented her from seeing his hand motion.

We also do not know if the driver behind her backed up while the victim was outside investigating the gate on her vehicle.  If the driver behind did back up at that time, it seems likely that the victim would have noticed that regardless of the receding car’s headlights being on.  But if she had gotten back into her vehicle before the driver behind began backing up, and if she had been prevented from seeing his hand motion, she may never have considered backing into the clear as being a possibility. 

 

[BroadwayLion]

petitnj

You need to react without thinking (sounds contradictory).

You are absolutely correct. I have an alzhimers patient who can walk just fine unles he is thinking about what he is doing, and then cannot put one foot in front of the other.

Walking is controled by reflex nerves and muscles, it does not take upper level function, but if you route the action through the upper level, it gets lost in there, and he cannot walk.

If hes is sitting in a chair, and I say "Come Here", he walks just fine. If I say "I want to see you walk a straight line", he cannot do it.

It takes a little training to make your reflexes work for you, if you must think something through, you may just use up all of the time you have left.

 

ROAR

[wanswheel]

Feb. 6 article at Lower Hudson Valley Journal News has a brief video of Mr. Hope describing the crucial moments. He backed up twice, before and after Mrs. Brody got out of her car.  

http://www.lohud.com/story/news/transit/2015/02/04/witness-describes-horrific-train-crash-valhalla/22872865/

[Euclid]

I think a good starting point would be to give drivers the clearest signage and public information.  Pertaining to this North Metro crash, that would amount to clarifying the "Do not stop on tracks" sign and identifying the gates as being breakable in emergencies by Operation Lifesaver statements and by signage on the gates.

[petitnj]

This is one of the reasons that pilots, engineers, ship drivers... are trained for emergency situations. You need to react without thinking (sounds contradictory). Most folks freeze when they encounter an unusual condition and just make the situation worse. After repeated training, one just reacts and takes the proper action. How do we do this for grade crossings? Should we have the gates come down randomly and hope the driver keeps going? Should we have such a situation in an interactive training system? This is what makes accidents like this so difficult. You cannot train all the drivers to just keep going, smash thru the gate and even drive into the ditch. 

I have one reaction when I see something on the track: grab the big red handle and throw it to emergency. Even if the something is a box of Bud Light, the reaction is the same (yes a box of Bud Light!). No analysis necessary. Drivers have so many distractions and clues that it is very hard for them to see the real danger. And since they are not trained to react, they start the mental debate until something really happens. 

Any ideas? 

[Euclid]

Here is an article that explores panic at grade crossings:

http://nypost.com/2015/02/05/experts-consider-driver-panic-confusion-after-deadly-metro-north-crash/

From the link:

 

Your car is trapped between the crossing gates, and a train is speeding down the tracks, its horn blaring, its lights blazing in your direction.

What do you do?

Hit the gas pedal and crash through the gate, or ditch your car and start running, experts say. And don’t waste any time deliberating over it.

Experts say that lack of awareness has led all too many times to hesitation, panic and death.

“Bash through the gates,” said Robert Sinclair, a spokesman for AAA New York. “They’re like breakaway gates. They’re usually wood or some sort of heavy foam material, and they’ll easily snap away.”

If the car is stalled or you can’t move it for any reason, abandon the vehicle and run, experts say. Many people make the fatal error of worrying about wrecking their car or trying to retrieve important items before escaping, Sinclair said.

------------------------------------------------------------

The “experts” are not at all clear on this point.  Operation Lifesaver says nothing about crashing through the gate in order to escape.

Even in this quote, the “experts” are ambiguous.  First they advise crashing through the gate—OR—ditch your car and run.  Later, they say that if your car is stalled or can’t move for any reason, abandon your car and run.  So which is it?  Bust the gate, or leave your vehicle on the track and run?

It should be obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense that drivers are going to naturally doubt the advisability of either option.  And the time consumed by that doubt will be critical.

Even the use of the term, “stall” in the expert language is ambiguous.  Generally the most common meaning is to stop because of vehicle failure such as an engine quitting.  But the term also refers to stopping such as might occur if the car ahead stops.  Since the “expert” language makes no distinction, the use of the term “stall” can mean pausing on the track because the car ahead has stopped, and expecting that the situation will last only a very short time, and then will clear.  Would any driver in their right mind jump out of their vehicle and run in such a short-lived “stall”? 

Would they flee their vehicle, and leave it on the track simply because of the short traffic pause even when the crossing signals are not activated and NO TRAIN is in sight?  That is what Operation Lifesaver advises.

This highly critical point would depend on the meaning of “stall” that is intended by Operation Lifesaver.   

[Euclid]

gardendance

 

 

 

Euclid

We know that initially, the driver was blocked from backing up due to being blocked by the car behind her.

...

I do not know how much room she had behind her.

...

Many news reports said that the driver moved back in order to give her room to back up.  I don't think it is a particularly wild assumption to conclude that she initially did not have room to back up.

 

 

 

Euclid, please acknowledge the BIG difference between "we know" and "I do not know" and "assumption". I agree that it's not a particularly wild assumption, but again I don't remember reading anything that said the car behind her was blocking her.

The article wanswheel linked quotes that 2nd car's driver "There was nobody behind me so I backed up real fast", but doesn't say anything about him being so close to her that she couldn't have backed up in the first place. Of course I'd hardly expect him to say "I was right up against her bumper like I always do whenever I'm at a grade crossing"

 

Norm48327

What information the media presents is always suspect as far as accuracy goes. Whether there was enough room for her to back up may not even be mentioned in the official report. Therefore, we are sort of beating the proverbial dead horse.

 

 

 

 

Euclid

Norm,

...

But let's say she did have room to back up and chose not to.  What then is the conclusion here that would make this issue so critical in your mind? 

 

Patrick,

[edblysard]

Say it aint so...not a McLaren.....Wouldn't hurt so much is it was an Alfa.

[BaltACD]

ACY

I thought about starting a new thread, but we might as well keep all the grade crossing stuff together.  This morning (March 27) a semi bottomed out on a CSX crossing at Doctor's Lake, FL & was destroyed by a Freight train.  Nobody hurt, but the truck and its cargo --- a McLaren sports car --- were significantly reduced in value, as you might imagine.  The crossing has a sign prohibiting trucks, but a witness says the sign is placed so that a trucker can't see it till he is already on the prohibited road.  The trucker has done hauling for the McLaren's owner, who lives nearby.  I don't know whether this means he should have been familiar with this crossing.

At least one news item described the CSX track as a "one-train rail".  I think the writer means it's a single track line, which is true.  The bizarre phraseology helps to illustrate the deplorable level of understanding of the railroad industry among the Press, and how to communicate information about railroads through the use of the English language.  Doesn't this writer have an editor?

Tom

Another report I read said the truck was a dualie pickup, not a Semi-tractor type rig.  No real mention of what kind of trailer was involved.

[ACY Tom]

I thought about starting a new thread, but we might as well keep all the grade crossing stuff together.  This morning (March 27) a semi bottomed out on a CSX crossing at Doctor's Lake, FL & was destroyed by a Freight train.  Nobody hurt, but the truck and its cargo --- a McLaren sports car --- were significantly reduced in value, as you might imagine.  The crossing has a sign prohibiting trucks, but a witness says the sign is placed so that a trucker can't see it till he is already on the prohibited road.  The trucker has done hauling for the McLaren's owner, who lives nearby.  I don't know whether this means he should have been familiar with this crossing.

At least one news item described the CSX track as a "one-train rail".  I think the writer means it's a single track line, which is true.  The bizarre phraseology helps to illustrate the deplorable level of understanding of the railroad industry among the Press, and how to communicate information about railroads through the use of the English language.  Doesn't this writer have an editor?

Tom

[blue streak 1]

an interesting program was on NPR this afternoon.  It was about the human brain research and how the two halves work and don't work together.  at the very end there was a statement that right handed ( left brain hemisphere ) persons have problems recognizing items to the right.  Did not here anything the same for left handed persons. 

This may or may not be any part but if the drivers at MNRR and Metrolink  ---  This may need much more research as to why some persons do not see a train coming.

 

[wanswheel]

gardendance

No thanks for snipping my quote and leaving out the "I think I remember reading" part. I'm sure you didn't do it intentionally.

Patrick, I'm sorry and thanks for the benefit of the doubt. I did do it on purpose, wrongly putting a greater value on economy than courtesy.

Mike

 

[Deggesty]

tree68

 

BaltACD

Just be careful when your left leg goes to push in the clutch!

 

 

Been there.  It ain't pretty.

 

I never owned a car with an automatic transmission until I married--my wife could not manage a manual transmission. Once, when I was visiting my oldest brother, he invited me to use his car. I am thankful that the sudden stop I made using both feet on the brake did not have any ill effect.

[tree68]

BaltACD

Just be careful when your left leg goes to push in the clutch!

Been there.  It ain't pretty.

[Euclid]

How does the shifting control work on the vehicle that was struck in this crash?

[Euclid]

Norm48327

"I translate beating a dead horse to mean continuing to discuss something unimportant."

In this instance it means we're discussing something we can't resolve without further information.

 

However, we can sure try to resolve gear shifting problems without any information.  The horse is fine for that. 

[BaltACD]

jeffhergert

 

My pickup is a manual 5 speed.  My wife's car is an automatic.  Once in a while when driving her car when I come to a stop sign, I've found myself reaching for the gearshift.

Jeff 

 

Just be careful when your left leg goes to push in the clutch!

[Norm48327]

"I translate beating a dead horse to mean continuing to discuss something unimportant."

In this instance it means we're discussing something we can't resolve without further information.

[gardendance]

wanswheel

gardendance

the train was actually on the far track

Nope.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/02/04/valhallatraincrash/22889015/

No thanks for snipping my quote and leaving out the "I think I remember reading" part. I'm sure you didn't do it intentionally.

Thanks, 2 of the photos clearly show the train and suv on the near track.

The witness says the SUV "goes forward 15 feet, right in front of the train" which indicates at least part of the SUV was not on the tracks until she moved.

 

Euclid

We know that initially, the driver was blocked from backing up due to being blocked by the car behind her.

...

I do not know how much room she had behind her.

...

Many news reports said that the driver moved back in order to give her room to back up.  I don't think it is a particularly wild assumption to conclude that she initially did not have room to back up.

Euclid, please acknowledge the BIG difference between "we know" and "I do not know" and "assumption". I agree that it's not a particularly wild assumption, but again I don't remember reading anything that said the car behind her was blocking her.

The article wanswheel linked quotes that 2nd car's driver "There was nobody behind me so I backed up real fast", but doesn't say anything about him being so close to her that she couldn't have backed up in the first place. Of course I'd hardly expect him to say "I was right up against her bumper like I always do whenever I'm at a grade crossing"

Norm48327

What information the media presents is always suspect as far as accuracy goes. Whether there was enough room for her to back up may not even be mentioned in the official report. Therefore, we are sort of beating the proverbial dead horse.

Euclid

Norm,

...

But let's say she did have room to back up and chose not to.  What then is the conclusion here that would make this issue so critical in your mind? 

I should probably let Norm speak for himself, but I doubt that this issue is critical to him. I translate beating a dead horse to mean continuing to discuss something unimportant.

[jeffhergert]

Euclid

Norm,

Many news reports said that the driver moved back in order to give her room to back up.  I don't think it is a particularly wild assumption to conclude that she initially did not have room to back up.

But let's say she did have room to back up and chose not to.  What then is the conclusion here that would make this issue so critical in your mind? 

 

According to the story in the Railway Age editorial, the driver of the car behind her backed up and yelled at her to back up when she got out of her car.  I think it's quite possible that she panicked and forgot how the gearshift worked differently in her new vehicle.

My pickup is a manual 5 speed.  My wife's car is an automatic.  Once in a while when driving her car when I come to a stop sign, I've found myself reaching for the gearshift.

Jeff 

[Euclid]

Norm,

Many news reports said that the driver moved back in order to give her room to back up.  I don't think it is a particularly wild assumption to conclude that she initially did not have room to back up.

But let's say she did have room to back up and chose not to.  What then is the conclusion here that would make this issue so critical in your mind? 

[Norm48327]

Euclid

I do not know how much room she had behind her.  I assumed it was not enough to get back off the crossing because the driver behind her said he moved back to give her room, and that he was surprised that she did not move back after he had done so. 

I think she either did not realize that there was room behind her, or that she did not want to scrape nearly the entire length of her vehicle under the lowered gate by backing into the clear.   

 

You know what assume does. Makes us look like equines of the braying kind.

What information the media presents is always suspect as far as accuracy goes. Whether there was enough room for her to back up may not even be mentioned in the official report. Therefore, we are sort of beating the proverbial dead horse.

[wanswheel]

gardendance

the train was actually on the far track

 

Nope.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/02/04/valhallatraincrash/22889015/

[Euclid]

I do not know how much room she had behind her.  I assumed it was not enough to get back off the crossing because the driver behind her said he moved back to give her room, and that he was surprised that she did not move back after he had done so. 

I think she either did not realize that there was room behind her, or that she did not want to scrape nearly the entire length of her vehicle under the lowered gate by backing into the clear.   

[gardendance]

Euclid

We know that initially, the driver was blocked from backing up due to being blocked by the car behind her.

How do we know that? Please show us the article you're linking that supports that the driver behind was too close for her to back up.

Euclid

  It is reported that the driver behind her backed up to give her room to come back, but it has never been clear how that was timed.  Maybe the driver was back in her vehicle and had already decided to escape forward when the driver behind backed up.

I also remember reading that the driver behind her backed up, but I don't remember reading any specifics that said she didn't have enough room in the first place. The other driver might have backed up to give her more room, even though she might have had enough room in the first place. I'm not saying it didn't happen the way you say, just that I don't remember reading anything that said so.

Somewhere I think I read, and posted somewhere in this thread, that there was enough room for her car between the gate and the 1st track. I can't pinpoint now where I might have read it, but it adds in my mind to the tragedy, if true then nothing would have happened if she had just stayed where she was, and even more ironic, if what I remember reading is true, the train was actually on the far track, not even the 1st track from where she had stopped.

[BaltACD]

There is 'knowing' something and how it operates and there is 'panic' and forgetting everything you know about how to operate anything properly.  Unfortunately, she and 5 innocent people paid with their lives for her panic.