Six people were killed when a Metro-North railroad train struck a vehicle on the tracks in Valhalla, N.Y., in Westchester County, on Tuesday evening in a fiery crash, officials said.
The female driver of the vehicle and five passengers on the train were killed, said Aaron Donovan, a spokesman for the Metropolitan Transportation Authority.
"The gates came down on top of the vehicle, which was stopped on the tracks…The driver got out to look at the rear of the car, then she got back in and drove forward and was stuck."
Really tragic event, with innocent passengers killed. The photo with the article shows the (lead ?) passenger car to be an essentially burned-out hulk.
I thought after the 1996 Amtrak - MARC collision near Silver Spring, MD, and some others, that better crashworthiness standards were enacted to prevent this kind of thing ? Then again, didn't the dump truck-into-Amtrak crash in Nevada 3 -4 years ago also kill a number of passengers from the resulting fire ?
- Paul North.
It appears to be the lead car. The Amtrak incident was different, in that the truck hit the side of the train. Here, the train hit the car at the front. The train is an M7, a rather recent model. I suspect that the car tangled up the third rail, and that was what started the fire.
To clarify: I'm focusing on the fire protection and crashworthiness of the cars, not the mechanics of the various collisions.
That Jeep can hold 15 gallons of gas. If any of that got inside the railcar, it would certainly provide a good start for a fire. The car would have collision protection, but I don't know that it includes the sheet metal. and the windows, while resistant to breakage, probably aren't up to hitting a vehicle at track speed.
I have no idea what the fire resistance specs are for the upholstery in such a car. If they're low or non-existent, then the seats and interior coverings may well have burned like gasoline once ignited. That's a problem we're seeing in structure fires these days. The furnishings in modern homes might as well be made of gasoline for how quickly they burn.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Just saw the 10:00 news, and sadly, the death toll is now 7. Eyewitness said gates were working and that the road/crossing is often used when adjacent highway is crowded. Train was on its way to Chappiqua, a few stations south of Brewster North, the furthest electrified point on the Harlem line.
Paul North: I understand. However, the mechanics do have a lot to do with how the fire started. I am still guessing that this is a third rail caused fire, as pictures show the car in contact with it.
It has been reported elsewhere that the engineer made it out alive, which is interesting.
NorthWest Paul North: I understand. However, the mechanics do have a lot to do with how the fire started. I am still guessing that this is a third rail caused fire, as pictures show the car in contact with it. It has been reported elsewhere that the engineer made it out alive, which is interesting.
National Media is reporting this on a number of News Programs. Here is a link provided with photo. @ http://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/westchester/2015/02/03/train-car-collide-valhalla-mass-casualties/22822737/
Apparently, five passengers perished in the resultant fire on the train ( again no mention if the train's crew perished(?)
The driver of the car was reported to have initially been caught between the crossing gates, according to the driver of the car behind the Jeep in traffic, the woman driver got out of the car, appeared to be 'disoriented' re-entered the car, backed it off the track. then pulled back in front of the train.
I wouldn't discount the possibility of a gate failure. I have personally encountered a malfunctioning gate on several occasions. The last time was at a malfunctioning crossing in downtown Toronto back in 2002. The gate would come down and then go back up... and THEN the train would come through. The train crews seemed to be aware of the problem as the conductor was hanging off the front end with a flag..better than nothing at all I guess. Maybe that's what happened to this lady. In my own experience mentioned above, I called CN and they had a work team on it within hours. If this can happen in downtown Toronto then I'm sure it can happen anywhere. Drivers should always ASSUME the crossing warning is malfunctioning and look both ways even if the barrier is up!
Speculation: Since the fire was so intense, something kept it going. Gasolene would not have come into the passenger car -- the third rail did. The vehicle as it was pushed in front of the locomotive, tore the third rail from its mountings and it came up into the first passenger car. The live third rail sparked against the body of the rail car and set off the fire. As long as the third rail was hot, sparks and flames spread.
petitnj Speculation: Since the fire was so intense, something kept it going. Gasolene would not have come into the passenger car -- the third rail did. The vehicle as it was pushed in front of the locomotive, tore the third rail from its mountings and it came up into the first passenger car. The live third rail sparked against the body of the rail car and set off the fire. As long as the third rail was hot, sparks and flames spread.
There are first person eyewitness accounts that say that the third rail did in fact penetrate the car...
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
The road that crosses the tracks there ends,eastbound, at a traffic light about 5-7 car lengths ahead at the Taconic Parkway.
We have a similar siruation here in Rockledge, FL with the FEC and parallel US1 where eastbound auto trafic has only a short distance between them.
The New Sunrail commuter service through Orlando has had a few train vs car crashes since it started where cars stopped on the tracks, no one killed as I recall. I guess people cannot learn that it is a bad idea to stop on the tracks and that gates come down BECAUSE A TRAIN IS COMING!
A radio news report says that the NTSB is looking at the train now--whether it sounded its horn, how fast it was moving, etc. What a waste--nothing will be found out of the ordinary, I suspect.If the crossing were malfunctioning, had it been reported? Those reports get relayed to trains on the line very quickly, and the train should have been notified to slow down. (At least that's the way it works by us!)
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Jim in Fla The road that crosses the tracks there ends,eastbound, at a traffic light about 5-7 car lengths ahead at the Taconic Parkway. We have a similar siruation here in Rockledge, FL with the FEC and parallel US1 where eastbound auto trafic has only a short distance between them. The New Sunrail commuter service through Orlando has had a few train vs car crashes since it started where cars stopped on the tracks, no one killed as I recall. I guess people cannot learn that it is a bad idea to stop on the tracks and that gates come down BECAUSE A TRAIN IS COMING!
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part8/part8b.htm
What kind of malfunction was reported ? False activation, or failure to activate ?
I could believe false activation - what with all the snow up that way in the past week or so, and salt being spread to prevent icing, that would have greatly lowered the electrical resistance between the rails and 'shunted' (connected) them, leading the signal to respond the same as if a train was nearby or approaching.
Obviously, that would have been a 'fail-safe' malfunction - it errs on the safe side, i.e., warning against vehicles crossing the tracks , as opposed to no warning at all.
carnej1 petitnj Speculation: Since the fire was so intense, something kept it going. Gasolene would not have come into the passenger car -- the third rail did. The vehicle as it was pushed in front of the locomotive, tore the third rail from its mountings and it came up into the first passenger car. The live third rail sparked against the body of the rail car and set off the fire. As long as the third rail was hot, sparks and flames spread. There are first person eyewitness accounts that say that the third rail did in fact penetrate the car...
Awful. Just Awful. Third rail explains the intense fire in what is otherwise a "flame-proof" coach.
NSTB will likely tie the line up for days and then recommend ejection seats passengers after a year of intense study. I'm not hopeful anything useful will come from this.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
logic:
As a scout I have some experience with fire, and I say that a spark between the third rail and a peice of metal ignited the petrol.
Once the gas fire got pretty hot, some other things like upolstery or insulation might have caught Fire and added to the heat. Anything can burn if it gets hot enough (excluring water).
that should make sense
Some reports indicate very heavy traffic on cross street past crossing.
Maybe SUV was unable to clear crossing?
As often said the only very good RR crossing is one that has become extinct. ( eliminated )
Every crossing with gates that I've seen has the gates set back a little bit from the nearest track, leaving room for a single small car. If the gate came down on the back of the SUV, she should have been okay if she'd just stayed where she was. I'm wondering if she was preoccupied and focused on what hit her vehicle and then trying to move forward with nobody in front of her or if she thought she was too far out, panicked, and tried to get across rather than abandon the vehicle.
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
chatanuga Every crossing with gates that I've seen has the gates set back a little bit from the nearest track, leaving room for a single small car. If the gate came down on the back of the SUV, she should have been okay if she'd just stayed where she was. I'm wondering if she was preoccupied and focused on what hit her vehicle and then trying to move forward with nobody in front of her or if she thought she was too far out, panicked, and tried to get across rather than abandon the vehicle.
In reading about similar incidents in the past, it appears that too many people (maybe most of them) regard the gates as they would a rock wall - immovable - which is not the case. The gates are made to swing or break away if forced.
Throw in the fear of scratching or denting one's Rolls Kanardly and it makes sense why people don't just drive out of the situation (assuming they have room in front or behind them).
Yup--no scratch, no dent--just no car.
Johnny
tree68 chatanuga Every crossing with gates that I've seen has the gates set back a little bit from the nearest track, leaving room for a single small car. If the gate came down on the back of the SUV, she should have been okay if she'd just stayed where she was. I'm wondering if she was preoccupied and focused on what hit her vehicle and then trying to move forward with nobody in front of her or if she thought she was too far out, panicked, and tried to get across rather than abandon the vehicle. In reading about similar incidents in the past, it appears that too many people (maybe most of them) regard the gates as they would a rock wall - immovable - which is not the case. The gates are made to swing or break away if forced. Throw in the fear of scratching or denting one's Rolls Kanardly and it makes sense why people don't just drive out of the situation (assuming they have room in front or behind them).
Recived instructions to put out a 'Stop & Flag Order' on a crossing because a OSP stated the gates 'just came down on their own and scratched the top of my car' - and a train went through the crossing seconds later.
Call should have been answered requesting name and address to send the driving citation to.
Signal personnel checked out the crossing a hour after the report and it was found to be operating as intended.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I am going to make an assumption - the driver was a 'local' and had been using this crossing for years.
Some people take the 'do not stop on tracks' sign literally and will stop just shy of the rail and get the surprise of their life (and most likely the last surprise). Stopping clear of tracks really means stopping behind the crossing protection.
There is no acceptable excuse for the drivers actions, as attested to by the following driver.
Speculation is always an iffy proposition, but I wonder whether she might have thought she was in reverse when she moved forward onto the track. I'm sure we'll never know.
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