Metro North, 6 dead

[Euclid]

Paul_D_North_Jr

All that says is "warning the locomotive engineer" - absolutely nothing about affecting train operations.

 

Paul,

I don’t see how you can conclude that a system that warns the engineer of vehicles fouling grade crossings will not affect train operations.  What is the point of warning a train if you don’t intend to affect its operation?

 

[BaltACD]

Euclid

 

Paul_D_North_Jr

All that says is "warning the locomotive engineer" - absolutely nothing about affecting train operations.

 

 

 

 

Paul,

I don’t see how you can conclude that a system that warns the engineer of vehicles fouling grade crossings will not affect train operations.  What is the point of warning a train if you don’t intend to affect its operation?

What is the point of warning the Engineer - since idiots will create Warning Situations at every crossing.  You can't outwit the true idiot.

[Euclid]

In the case of the New York crash, police detoured an overwhelming flow of traffic across the crossing due to an accident blocking a major artery.  They have a sign saying “Do Not Stop on Tracks” at that crossing, and it warns of the danger of stop-and-go traffic passing over the crossing. 

So the police ought to have recognized the danger.  Therefore, knowing of the danger, they should have stationed officers at this crossing to flag traffic in a way to make sure nobody entered the crossing until it was clear to completely cross.  And they should have been prepared to react to precisely the situation that did develop with the gate dropping on a vehicle.  The railroad should have also been notified of the overcrowded crossing so they could be prepared to stop if flagged by the police.

The police should have prevented this deadly accident, but they did not.       

[Norm48327]

Ya know. It's safe to assume Americans have become so dumbed-down they are no longer capable of making a decision so simple as not stopping on the tracks. Yeah, I guess the cops should protect them from themselves.

Sarcasm intended.

[NDG]

The following might be of interest?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEtXX1V3QfQ

Thank You.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

jeffhergert understands the points I was trying to make (I'd forgotten about JKG's philosophy, but jeff's recollection matches mine).  

I don't mind the engineer being notified - he can then decide what to do, including approaching the crossing at Restricted Speed (prepared to stop short of the obstruction).  But having the PTC system then automatically slow or stop the train is too much.  In such cases, there also ought to be automatic notifcation to the local or railroad police, to cite or arrest the cause of the obstruction.

Then again, Euclid claims it was the police who failed to respond to this dangeous situation.  And his point that the police should have dealt with it - with no PTC now operating - undercuts the rationale for having PTC involved in any way with these kinds of situations.  So which way is it ?  

- Paul North.

[Euclid]

Paul,

I understand yours and Jeff’s points, and I agree that they could be a problem.  Hopefully, the system could be designed to preclude those abuses.  Right now, we don’t have the intelligent grade crossing program underway.  If it was in place at the NY crossing, it might have saved those lives.  And it might have done so automatically without the need to marshal a special contingent of police officers to protect the crossing during the detour.  But the intelligent crossing was not in place there.

So, in that case, the police should have anticipated the heightened danger and protected the crossing.  It’s just common sense.      

I am not advocating PTC for this grade crossing control, or even advocating PTC period.  But the source I cited says that the plan is to combine this grade crossing monitoring with PTC.  They speak of merging all of the transportation systems into a larger control overlay, so to speak.  Whoever is behind that announcement is the one advocating this system.  I am just reporting the news.   

[Paul of Covington]

   None of this discussion matters.   In the coming world of smart driverless cars, trucks, trains and planes, nobody will have to think or do anything.   A perfect utopia!

   As a small scale example of this utopia, have you seen someone whose smart-phone battery has died and doesn't have his charger available?

[blue streak 1]

Now an argument over under running 3rd rail and over running. Am not  to argue.  This is for the TTC at Pueblo to do scientific testing.  Lets face it the SUC picked up the third rail.  ~ 4" difference should not have make much difference but that is for TTC to determine.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/did-the-electrified-third-rail-make-train-wreck-deadlier/ar-AA95eqD?ocid=DELLDHP

[zugmann]

Euclid

So, in that case, the police should have anticipated the heightened danger and protected the crossing. It’s just common sense.

 

The gates acted as the flagmen. They did their job.  There's detours all the time, and the cars have to follow the signs and lights of the detour route.  They shouldn't need the police to hold their hands. 

[zugmann]

Euclid

I mentioned the need for a better sign.  Here it is:

 

In Slow Road Traffic—

Wait Here Until Clear to Pass Completely Through Crossing

 

 

No offense, but if people can't comprehend signs like DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS, STOP, YIELD, NO TURN ON RED, NO PASSING ZONE, SPEED LIMIT X, and NO TURNS FROM SHOULDER, I doubt your sign will make much difference.

[NorthWest]

Since the engineer made it out through the center aisle, I suspect that those killed where killed by the third rail and not the fire.

As for the third rail, the difference in height is (I think) closer to an inch difference in height. While the support system may be a little weaker, I am not convinced that overrunning third rail would have done anything different, though the ramp at the end of the rail may have helped.

[16-567D3A]

. 

[BroadwayLion]

Signs will not be read. A new crtossing protection is required. The kind used to protect Federal Buildings, it comes up out of the ground and can stop a tank.

If a car is on top of it when it comes up, the car will just stay there until it goes back down again. Naturally it has to be much further away from the tracks so that if it does lift a car it will not be half on the tracks. It will need good warning lihgts to let people know to STOP AND WAIT RIGHT THERE!

Oh well, ideas of LION might not be practicle, but what the heck do you expect from a LION.

 

ROAR

[tree68]

The fact that the crossing equipment did its job notwithstanding, one must consider the relative need to make further improvements of the crossing.  As I noted before, unless this is a popular shortcut, it's a windy road through a cemetary.

News reports indicated that the highway controls at that intersection are interlocked with the crossing protection so people wouldn't get caught on the tracks by being backed up by the traffic light if there are trains coming.

It would appear that the heavy traffic due to the temporary detour overwhelmed the planning.

This was likely a one-off event - except for unusually bad intersections, such detours occur at intervals measured in years.  If accidents do occur at the intersection that caused the collision, I'm sure traffic engineers are looking at that.  But, as has been stated numerous times, you can't fix stupid.  It only takes one driver making a bozo move to negate all the planning in the world.

 

[ACY Tom]

Lion:

It's been tried.  We found some photos of such an installation on the AC&Y RR in the 1920's or 1930's.  I think it was in Carey, Ohio.  It was evidently short-lived.  I think maintenance & reliability were the downfall of the system.  I can imagine snow being a problem.  Also, what happens to the car that is caught between the barriers?  I don't want to think about that.

There's been a lot of commentary that states or implies that the tragedy was caused by stupidity.  We don't know the lady's state of mind.  Therefore, I prefer to think of her as being confused and misplacing her priorities.  The SUV was evidently fairly new.  Was she thinking about the crossarm damaging the paint? Did she think she was in Reverse when she pulled forward?  We'll never know, and I'd prefer to think well of her.  She paid dearly for her mistake, as did the other victims, and it seems a bit churlish to add to that tragedy by insulting her.

Tom 

[16-567D3A]

.                    

[challenger3980]

"Intelligent Crossings" that WARN the locomotive engineer about obstacles in the crossing, would have to have the activation advanced how much to be effective?  A 25 -30 second before train arrival activation would not warn an engineer in time to stop in most instances.

 Increasing the activation before arrival time is just going to inspire more drivers to try to beat the train, drive around gates, and other stupid acts.

IMO, new signs are NOT needed, or likely to change most drivers behaviours, DO NOT STOP ON TRACKS is more than sufficient, it says everything that needs to be said without complicating the signs. Traffic engineers work very hard to design signs that give drivers the information they need to drive safely, without making the sign messages too long to read while driving, the current signs do their job, it is up to the drivers to OBEY the signs in place.

You just can't fix Stupid, not to speak ill of the dead, but this was a senseless tragedy, that should not have happened. There was a sign in place specifically warning NOT to do what she did, her speed was obviously slow enough that she should have had plenty of time to comprehend it's warning, and because she disregarded the signs warning, not only was she killed, but so were 5 completely innocent other people.

As a Professional Driver with more than 26 years, and 2,500,000 miles experience, the stupid things that people do behind the wheel are beyond mind boggeling.

 

Doug

[Mookie]

Doug - I agree with you completely.  Also, she may have been doing the new driving additive - texting or talking on a phone before the accident.  Which could be why her mind was not even conscious of her surroundings - just that she may have damaged her vehicle.  It was after work, she could have her mind any of a thousand places, and just never made the connection involving a train.   Just get out of the situation she was in.  She may have even panicked, thought she was in reverse and rolled forward.  

Clearly when she got out to look at the damage, this says to me that she was mentally very distracted.  

[Euclid]

“Do Not Stop on Tracks” should be relegated to the museum of stupid signs right along with “Danger, Low Flying Aircraft.”

The problem with the sign, “Do Not Stop on Tracks” is that it warns of the consequence rather than the underlying point.  If a driver ignores the underlying point, it may be too late to have a choice in the matter of whether to stop on the tracks.  That is why I suggest a sign that addresses the underlying point.    

I doubt that many drivers properly understand the message, “Do Not Stop on Tracks.”  The average driver will think, “Why warn me of that? Of course I won’t stop on the tracks.  Why would I?  I have no plan to stop here.”

I doubt that they realize that the point of the sign is to warn not to stop on the tracks when there is heavy stop-and-go traffic.  That is the one circumstance that leads to stopping on the track, and it may occur without any forethought or expectation on the part of the driver. 

And the pertinent message is not the issue of stopping on the track.  It is the requirement to not enter the crossing until it is clear to pass completely through it.  If a driver does not understand that larger point, they will inadvertently enter the crossing with insufficient room to clear on the opposite side.  So by the time they have to stop on the track, they will have no choice in the matter.  They can’t run over the car ahead of them that has stopped and is preventing them from clearing the track.

The new sign makes the crucial point that one should not ENTER the crossing if not entirely clear.  This is crucial because once you enter the crossing; it will then be too late to make a choice to not stop on the track if you are inching along in stop-and-go traffic. 

So the new sign should say this: 

In Slow Road Traffic—

Wait Here Until Clear to Pass

Completely Through Crossing

[Norm48327]

ACY

 

There's been a lot of commentary that states or implies that the tragedy was caused by stupidity.  We don't know the lady's state of mind.  Therefore, I prefer to think of her as being confused and misplacing her priorities. 

Tom 

 

Tom,

In a previous life, I was a professional firefighter. Many times I saw people simply freeze as if they were totally disengaged from the situation. They stood when they should have run and paid the consequences. Can't help but think that's what happened to her.

[Euclid]

I wonder if the people riding that train would all agree that nothing should be done to increase crossing safety because you can’t fix stupid.

Apparently traffic engineers did not believe in that nonsense.  From this link, it says that distant warning signals were planned for that crossing because of the curving road limiting sight distance:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/02/07/new-york-officials-planned-more-warning-lights-on-tracks-before-deadly-train/

Quote from the link:

“More warning lights were planned at the suburban New York train crossing where a motorist and five train passengers were killed Tuesday, but state transportation officials never installed them.

The planned third set of lights would have been built up to 200 feet back from the crossing, on the curving road leading up to it, the New York Post reports.”

[Speaking clock]

I've seen everything in every category from odd junk to da funk, and I say that something must be done, but something that won't make motorists say "challenge accepted ".

we can all point fingers, however moving the crossing gate a bit further back from the tracks might help, or re routing the traffic, here in sharonville cincinnati Dayton road has been overloaded with construction and increased I&O traffic on the NS .

something Must be done, and I wish I had the answer.

[eolafan]

This was yet another tragic case of a auto driver not doing the correct, sensible or logical thing when coming upon a railroad track...which is to stop short of the track and NOT to cross that track until he/she is certain that there is enough room on the other side to accomodate the length of his/her vehicle without the back side of the vehicle foulding the track.  This woman obviously totally disregarded such very logical practice and paid the ultimate price for her foolishness.  The worst part of her not doing the right thing is that not only did she perish as a result, but so did numerous others who were totally innocent of such wrongdoing.

[rfpjohn]

I am not sure if this crossing is equipped with "quad" gates, but I have seen multiple instances of drivers trapped within the quad gates, not realizing that the gates can be driven through, though their vehicle may suffer some scratches and they may be subject to a fine. In heavy traffic, too often, drivers inch onto a crossing while following the cars in front of them. The gate comes down in front of them, they can't back up and they freeze. I've blown by vehicles trapped in this scenario on double track territory, where fortunately there was enough room for the car to fit without fouling both tracks. Quad gates are dangerous!

[BaltACD]

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1993-03-18/news/1993077250_1_gasoline-tanker-fort-lauderdale-fuel

[tree68]

Yep - plenty of flashing lights and signs certain can make a difference.  If people read and heed them.

[David1005]

The solution to the grade crossing safety problem is grade seperation. At the present time there must be twenty five grade seperation projects in the works in Southern California. There are not being put in to improve safety, they are to reduce wait times caused by both train and auto congestion and whistle blowing noise.  Grade seperations are expensive, but once the crossings are gone, they are gone for good along with all the problems they cause for the trains, cars and the neighborhood. 

[Euclid]

It is true that driver familiarity and expectations matter.  Traffic engineers do take that into consideration.  Last summer, the highway department set up a large detour coming into the north side of St. Peter, Mn.  They reversed the right of way through two intersections that had stop signs for one of the two routes through the intersection.  The next day, someone was killed as they drove under the trailer of a passing semi.  The detour signage was perfect, but the victim simply drove according to his established pattern, and failed to notice that the right or way had reversed.

[ACY Tom]

How about signage on the INSIDE of the gate, saying "breakable gate arm" or some such?  Might help a panicky motorist.

Tom