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Raton Pass returns from the dead.

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Posted by mudchicken on Wednesday, February 15, 2023 12:23 PM

MidlandMike

 

 
daveklepper

Coiuld a dinnert train out of Albuquerque break even or better?

 

 

 

If we are still talking about Raton Pass, the start of the pass is 5 hours from ABQ.

 

It would appear that Apache Canyon and Glorietta Hill need a little more love from the PR people fixated on Raton Pass.

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by mudchicken on Wednesday, February 15, 2023 12:11 PM

(1) I was part of a crew that ran 8800 ft trains La Junta to Albuquerque during strikes in the 1980's using locotrol equipment. The surviving tunnel (newer and longer Tunnel 2) has a relay antenna along the crown and barely could accept double stacks .... Old wooden lined tunnel 1 could not even clear certain autoracks in the bad old days - got plugged more than once before they abandoned that tunnel)

(2) There are two (really three) bridges that will not allow stack trains.  (the bridge near Mora/Doolittle Canyon/Watrous just clears - even after the helicopter crashed into it) . The gusset plates foul the other two (especially the Canyoncito/ Apache Canyon bridge)....

All the old head qualified crews have just about all retired. Nobody BNSF still qualified to run that line. Plus there is the mess south of Las Vegas where the state of NM is not helping matters any. (no on-line business for 200+ miles does not help either)

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by Fred M Cain on Wednesday, February 15, 2023 11:43 AM

Dreyfusshudson

<SNIP>

With respect to clearances, I don't recall that many bridges between Albuquerque and Trinidad?- tunnel apart of course. Can't speak for La Junta to Kansas City- it's dark then! 

 
During a major traffic surge back in the '90s before the BNSF merger, I was under the distinct impression that AT&SF ran some double stack trains over the Trinidad line.
 
I recall seeing a picture in a magazine showing a double stack train on the line but cannot recall which magazine it was but quite possibly it was TRAINS.
 
If the double stack cars of today are a bit higher, then tracks could easily be lowered a bit in the tunnels and that'd be fine.
 
I have always suspected that, in addition to the steep grades and bad curves, the lack of CTC on the line helped doom it in the cabooseless train era.  There IS some CTC but only for some very short stretches.  BNSF just didn't think it was worth the money to upgrade the line when what they believe is a much better route is available.  Also, doesn't the State own much of the line in New Mexico, now?
 
I fully agree that the loss of the line would be a darn shame but I'm not sure how it can be saved long term.  For the few passengers that Amtrak carries over the line everyday, a major upgrade to the line does not strike me as a good long-term investment.
 
With these huge two-mile monsters that the freight roads are running today, running a 2½ mile long stack train over the line seems rather problematic at best.  But you never know.  As you said in your original post, things could change.  Maybe they'll discover lithium somewhere along the line in north-central New Mexico :)
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Posted by SFbrkmn on Thursday, January 12, 2023 5:23 PM

As a BNSF trainman at Wellington, we do not want traffic moving over Raton (which it never well). That would mean less pool board slots for Wellks & Amarillo 

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Posted by azrail on Tuesday, January 10, 2023 3:06 PM

BNSF: We've known since the 19th Century Glorieta and Raton are operational bottlenecks and money pits.

Which is basically any RR that goes through mountains.

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Posted by OWTX on Tuesday, January 10, 2023 12:09 PM

BNSF: We've known since the 19th Century Glorieta and Raton are operational bottlenecks and money pits.

Railfans: More trains!

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, January 10, 2023 4:48 AM

Great.  A whole-day trip. Breakfast optional, lunch and dinner standard.  Leave at 8:30 Am, return at 8:30 PM.  Gourmet-quality, Kosher, Vegetarian, Salt-free, all options asvailable.  PA system used by tour-guide.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Monday, January 9, 2023 8:04 PM

daveklepper

Coiuld a dinnert train out of Albuquerque break even or better?

 

If we are still talking about Raton Pass, the start of the pass is 5 hours from ABQ.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, January 9, 2023 2:04 AM

Coiuld a dinner train out of Albuquerque break even or better?

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Posted by MikeF90 on Thursday, January 5, 2023 4:45 PM

tree68
That's what happens when people with no clue how a business operates try to run said business...

Agree, and the new CEO seems to see the importance of upgrading their IT infrastructure. This is a HUGE project and will take several years, hopefully some good will remains after that.

Not mentioned here that another trigger of their meltdown was management arrogance toward critical front line personnel. The bad storm through their large Denver base resulted, indirectly, in more ramp personnel calling in sick. Management sent out a bulletin strongly suggesting they work sick and with even more overtime, doctors letter required, etc. As a result half the ramp guys quit and this cascaded to other locations.

The personnel replacement system crashed hard - too many transactions queued.

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Posted by MP173 on Thursday, January 5, 2023 4:16 PM

Southwest Airlines will be fine.

All companies have issues. Southwest has a certain amount of goodwill built up.  Plus, who else offers the service to points and frequency that they do?

That being said....fix the problem.

Ed

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Posted by tree68 on Thursday, January 5, 2023 7:43 AM

Erik_Mag
Southwest Airlines

I had the same thought when I heard some of the backstory of their meltdown.

That's what happens when people with no clue how a business operates try to run said business...

LarryWhistling
Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) 
Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you
My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date
Come ride the rails with me!
There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Wednesday, January 4, 2023 10:46 PM

"PSR disease" doesn't seem to be limited to the railroads. The CEO of Southwest Airlines from 2004(?) till a year ago was very focused on cost containment to the point of not updating the pilot scheduling software. Not sure how long it will take Southwest to win the trust of its customers.

One good thing from last weeks fiasco was that my older son was home for three more days than he was originally scheduled to be home.

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Posted by Ulrich on Wednesday, January 4, 2023 2:41 PM

SD70Dude

 

 
kgbw49

No kidding.

Where is the precision?

Where is the schedule?

Where is the railroading?

 

 

Theoretically, the ideal railroad has no track, no customers, and no trains.  All those things are cost centres.  Without them there would be no costs to allocate and the accountants could lay off everyone except themselves.  Then they could just sit there and watch the company's profits roll in all day long. 

 

Actually, that's sort of been done in another industry. In Montreal back in the 1980s there was a commercial carpet cleaning service that was raking in hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in sales. Only, they didn't do carpet cleaning or anything else other than send out invoices for services not rendered. They started out legitimately enough.. but the owners soon noticed that wayward invoices for small amounts  got paid anyway, and it wasn't a stretch from there to dispense with carpet cleaning altogether and  simply send bills out... if they got paid great.. if not.. then that was ok too as no costs were incurred.  Occasionally someone complained... "we didn't order or receive any carpet cleaning".. in which case the firm simply apologized for the "billing error". Eventually, after about a year or so.. they got greedy.. they nolonger let unpaid invoices go.. instead they followed up with threats of collection, and that's what finally did them in. So getting rid of everything except the accounting.. its been done! Laugh

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Posted by SD70Dude on Wednesday, January 4, 2023 1:12 PM

kgbw49

No kidding.

Where is the precision?

Where is the schedule?

Where is the railroading?

Theoretically, the ideal railroad has no track, no customers, and no trains.  All those things are cost centres.  Without them there would be no costs to allocate and the accountants could lay off everyone except themselves.  Then they could just sit there and watch the company's profits roll in all day long. 

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, January 4, 2023 12:31 PM

Gramp
kgbw49

No kidding.

Where is the precision?

Where is the schedule?

Where is the railroading?

A couple of more accurate wording for PSR could include but would not be limited to:

Poor Service Railroading

Pathetic Shortage of Railroaders

Pathetic Shortage of Real assets (locomotives and track capacity) 

And now the govt. is telling UP to get the tardy grain trains to the chickens at Foster Farms. 

I rely on Foster Farms for the Corn dogs, not their chickens.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Gramp on Wednesday, January 4, 2023 10:53 AM

kgbw49

No kidding.

Where is the precision?

Where is the schedule?

Where is the railroading?

A couple of more accurate wording for PSR could include but would not be limited to:

Poor Service Railroading

Pathetic Shortage of Railroaders

Pathetic Shortage of Real assets (locomotives and track capacity)

 

And now the govt. is telling UP to get the tardy grain trains to the chickens at Foster Farms. 

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Posted by kgbw49 on Wednesday, January 4, 2023 2:30 AM

No kidding.

Where is the precision?

Where is the schedule?

Where is the railroading?

A couple of more accurate wording for PSR could include but would not be limited to:

Poor Service Railroading

Pathetic Shortage of Railroaders

Pathetic Shortage of Real assets (locomotives and track capacity)

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Posted by andrewjonathon on Tuesday, January 3, 2023 9:39 PM

It is interesting to see your post from 8 years ago given what PSR has done in the intervening years. Rather than double track by 2035, it seems railroads will be lucky to retain the traffic they have now after the recent meltdowns. We've also seen their strategy to manage traffic under PSR - pick and choose what you want and dump the rest.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, March 28, 2018 7:03 AM

The fate of the Raton Pass line is remarkably similar to that of the ex-PRR main through Fort Wayne in the 1980's and 1990's.  Conrail routed through traffic onto other mains and the line became a glorified branch serving Amtrak and a handful of local freights.  Amtrak eventually discontinued its service and the line is now the Chicago, Fort Wayne & Eastern.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Sunnyland on Tuesday, March 27, 2018 4:06 PM

I rode this route with SW Chief and people in Raton and the Philmont Ranch boy scouts want to keep the Chief running on that route.  Hope it works, as it is a scenic line. 

 

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Posted by VerMontanan on Sunday, March 25, 2018 1:02 AM

 

Mark Meyer

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Thursday, March 22, 2018 7:18 PM

kgbw49

ATSF 2926 - the Baldwin-built 4-8-4 Northern being restored in Albuquerque - should be able to utilize the Raton Pass line for running excursions.

ATSF 2926 has 80 inch drivers and a boiler with 300 lbs psi steam pressure. It is a member of the heaviest class of 4-8-4 Northerns ever built. It was equally at home on passenger and freight trains and could lope along at 90 mph.

The “big-barreled” moniker is a reference to its large boiler diameter.

 https://www.newmexico.org/listing/new-mexico-steam-locomotive-%26-railroad-historical-society/2162/ 

Ah. That would be great to see. The only operating Santa Fe Steam I ever got to see was when the PRR leased some big beautiful 2-10-4's for use hauling coal from Columbus OH to Sandusky OH. back in the late fifties. Watched two accelerate their train after being stopped a Worthington. Great show. 

Ah1That would be great to see. The only operating Santa Fe Steam I ever got to see was when the PRR leased some big beautiful 2-10-4's for use hauling coal from Columbus OH to Sandusky OH. back in the late fifties. Watched two accelerate their train after being stopped a Worthington. Great show. Found this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5zOCNNw6t0

 

 

 
 
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Posted by kgbw49 on Thursday, March 22, 2018 6:29 PM

ATSF 2926 - the Baldwin-built 4-8-4 Northern being restored in Albuquerque - should be able to utilize the Raton Pass line for running excursions.

ATSF 2926 has 80 inch drivers and a boiler with 300 lbs psi steam pressure. It is a member of the heaviest class of 4-8-4 Northerns ever built. It was equally at home on passenger and freight trains and could lope along at 90 mph.

The “big-barreled” moniker is a reference to its large boiler diameter.

 https://www.newmexico.org/listing/new-mexico-steam-locomotive-%26-railroad-historical-society/2162/

http://steamtrainpics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/091315_1411_AnotherLarg1.jpg

http://img.kansasmemory.org/thumb500/00207918.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fKi7BBEwLAI/TyHKr_qhGlI/AAAAAAAAAA0/5l6DKhsn630/s1600/2-Kistler+photo--2926+in+San+Diego.jpg

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/180072.jpg

And here is a classmate of 2926 on freight...

https://assets.train-simulator.com/app/uploads/article-images/3d2cf976-87ab-4a77-b15c-cb0bb536f471.jpg?width=640

ATSF 2926 is definitely a Big-Barreled Baldwin! Plus it is just fun to say it!

 

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Posted by Electroliner 1935 on Thursday, March 22, 2018 6:16 PM

kgbw49

At least it won’t be long before a certain Big-Barreled Baldwin gets a chance to stretch its legs on at least a portion of the Raton Pass Route.

Please elaborate for this confused reader.

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Posted by kgbw49 on Thursday, March 22, 2018 7:15 AM

At least it won’t be long before a certain Big-Barreled Baldwin gets a chance to stretch its legs on at least a portion of the Raton Pass Route.

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Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Thursday, March 22, 2018 6:49 AM

3.5% grades tight clearences that can not fit double stack trains and a lack of qualified crews to run over it. There is no way Raton ever comes back from the dead.

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Posted by mudchicken on Tuesday, March 20, 2018 8:08 PM

(Much of it is already welded rail, especially on the hills with significant stretches of 132# jointed) The fun with the line starts when you put heavy freight trains in sidings with lightweight rail and a dearth of anchors.

Spent too many summers with a rail profile gage (think etch-a-sketch for rail engineers) up on Raton & Glorietta. I have my doubts on how effectively used the $$$ will be used when administered by State DOT's (clueless bus people)

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by Vern Moore on Tuesday, March 20, 2018 7:49 PM

diningcar

blue streak 1, It appears BNSF does not wish to use this line. They have sold it between the east switch at Lamy to Albuq. to the State of NM. They do not wish to assume the cost of maintaining the RR to the standards required for freight operations and with the detours available in the RARE NEED situations they seem to be handling their business well on the double track, CTC , Transcon. 

 

I wonder how that might change with the recent announcement of a federal transportation grant to lay welded rail and do tie replacement on the line to support Amtrak operations?

With the line in good shape it might be more attractive to BNSF for detours and occasional overflow trafficl.

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, March 20, 2018 2:49 PM

blue streak 1
There should be enough old heads previously qualified that would need only a trip or two to requalify ?

I have my doubts on how many 'old heads' are still around.  With RR Retirement being age 55 with 30 years service, many of those hired from 1970 on are well within the retirement parameters.  I may be wrong but I don't think BNSF has used the Raton Pass line for it's own business for a decade or more, if that timeline is anywhere near correct there are very few people still working that ever ran the line.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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