jeffhergertI believe by 1983 the SP-SSW had pretty much rebuilt the [ex-RI] track structure.
The 12/83 timetable shows 60 maximum east of Herington, 70 Herington to Liberal, 60 to Dalhart, and 70 to Tucumcari.
By the way: we can't blame people for thinking Ellinor to Dalies is shorter via La Junta. That's what Patterson's article says.
Distance by itself is not the factor engineers utilize when comparing routes.
Routes are analyzed by comparing grades and curvature. They are converted by engineering calculation to straight and level miles for each route.
Prevailing winds may sometimes be analyzed if there is a significant difference.
CSSHEGEWISCH If I recall correctly when the merger application was filed, the Golden State route would have been used for boxcar traffic. I assume this meant non-preference traffic.
If I recall correctly when the merger application was filed, the Golden State route would have been used for boxcar traffic. I assume this meant non-preference traffic.
You recall correctly. At the time I remember talking to a former RI employee, but not from the GSR area, about the proposed merger. He, too said after it happened the GSR would probably be abandoned-box car traffic notwithstanding.
I believe by 1983 the SP-SSW had pretty much rebuilt the track structure. It was still mostly ABS and train order territory; DTC a few years off, then TWC and later CTC once UP took over SP.
I was looking through a box of old memorabilia last night. I came across a photo copied article from Forbes from the very early 1980s, premerger talks IIRC, about the SP titled: "Doomed?" This was before the SP beginning to have troubles was talked about in railfan circles. I should reread it-it's probably been close to 40 years since I've read it.
Jeff
timz If SFe-SP had been approved, about 720 miles via Hutchinson, using RI-SP from there to Vaughn.
If SFe-SP had been approved, about 720 miles via Hutchinson, using RI-SP from there to Vaughn.
I suspect that at the time this merger would have taken place (if approved), most of the SP Golden State route east of Vaughn would have been abandoned or truncated. The Santa Fe had too much online business and of course with their major junctions at Texico, Clovis, Canyon and Avard, the Santa Fe line would have been kept in preference. Also, I believe that by 1983 or so when this was first proposed, the SP still hadn't quite gotten the railroad up to the standards we see today.
Vermontanan2Mileage from Ellinor, KS to Dalies, NM: Via Augusta, Mulvane, Wellington, Amarillo, Belen: 780 miles Via Newton, La Junta, Raton, Albuquerque: 800.5 miles
Via Augusta, Mulvane, Wellington, Amarillo, Belen: 780 miles
Via Newton, La Junta, Raton, Albuquerque: 800.5 miles
daveklepper I believe the Super-C AT&SF high-speed freight train used the route more than once. When lightly loaded, it was logical because the route is shorter. And this was before double-stacks.
I believe the Super-C AT&SF high-speed freight train used the route more than once. When lightly loaded, it was logical because the route is shorter. And this was before double-stacks.
The Summer 2017 issue of Classic Trains contains an article written by Steve Patterson about the piggyback train speed tests run on both routes by the Santa Fe in the late 1960's.
A test run in July 1967 via Raton Pass was conducted to take advantage of the shorter distance, lower amount of train interference, and the 500 miles of 90 mph track. The test run, however, took an hour and 12 minutes longer than the southern route. According to the author, this was due to the heavy head winds encountered across central and western Kansas. These winds didn't affect the streamlined passenger fleet much, but caused a significant amount of wind resistance for the high mounted piggyback trailers. Even with four GE U28CG's, the test train could barely average over 70 mph over the 90 mph territory. As a result, the Santa Fe decided to route the Super C over the southern route.
Very interesting read with some nice graphics and photos taken during the actual test runs.
Stacks - up to at least the 9 ft sea cans. (Taller than most to start with when built in 1908)...Still can't get a stack train through the thru-truss bridges further south.
mudchicken the new tunnel has never been notched for any reason - plenty large already.
the new tunnel has never been notched for any reason - plenty large already.
Plenty large for...what?
Mileage from Ellinor, KS to Dalies, NM:
Shorter doesn't always mean faster, but the Raton Pass could have been since the route via Clovis didn't have the infrastructure it does now, and the Raton Pass line had less traffic (less interference).
mudchicken rdamon I see some old discussions about the tunnel being notched for Double Stacks but the clearance was close enough that containers still hit the sides so it was never used more than a few times. Spelczech's cousin Faktczech needs to ask where this came from? (the new tunnel has never been notched for any reason - plenty large already. The old wood-lined tunnel has been courderoyed/ sealed shut for almost 65 years.)
rdamon I see some old discussions about the tunnel being notched for Double Stacks but the clearance was close enough that containers still hit the sides so it was never used more than a few times.
I see some old discussions about the tunnel being notched for Double Stacks but the clearance was close enough that containers still hit the sides so it was never used more than a few times.
Spelczech's cousin Faktczech needs to ask where this came from? (the new tunnel has never been notched for any reason - plenty large already. The old wood-lined tunnel has been courderoyed/ sealed shut for almost 65 years.)
Saw this on Tango Oscar. The czech's are good people to know
caldreamer CSSHEGEWISCH: If you do not understand what I posted, please reread slowly and carefully. If you still do not understand please send me a private message and I will explain in detail.
If you do not understand what I posted, please reread slowly and carefully. If you still do not understand please send me a private message and I will explain in detail.
CSSHEGEWISCH I'm wondering why he injected politics into this thread.
I'm wondering why he injected politics into this thread.
New Mexico vs. Old Mexico? :)
??? Possibly, cross posted Threds????
I think the question is what your post has to do with Raton Pass.
caldreamer Given todays political evironment vis a vis the US and China, I can not see the US giving money to Mexico to go to China. What I could possibly see the US and the US and Mexican railroads as partners investing in Mexico in the form of rail ownership and partnerships with Mexican railroads.and ports. BNSF, UP and CNKCS already has infrastructure in Mexico and BNSF and UP connect directly with Mexican railroads.
Given todays political evironment vis a vis the US and China, I can not see the US giving money to Mexico to go to China. What I could possibly see the US and the US and Mexican railroads as partners investing in Mexico in the form of rail ownership and partnerships with Mexican railroads.and ports. BNSF, UP and CNKCS already has infrastructure in Mexico and BNSF and UP connect directly with Mexican railroads.
I really believe that I've posted this before but am inclined to do so again.
I could almost SWEAR that I once saw a picture years ago in TRAINS Magazine of a double-stack train on the Raton Pass line. I'm thinking I saw such a photograph back in the early to mid '90s.
However, I have searched online and "Googled" and "Googled" but have never found any reference to such a photo or even any reference to such a subject matter.
Does anyone else recall this? Perhaps I'm trying to remember something that I WANTED to see that in all reality just wasn't there.
But I'm certain of one thing. There really was a time back either in the late '80s or in the '90s that the AT&SF reopened the line for through freight for however long that lasted. I don't think it was more that a few trains per week. But after the merger, BNSF just didn't want to do that anymore and spent all the funds they could beefing the south line through Amarillo,
Sam: Newton to La Junta had some of the last jointed rail laid on the Santa Fe (132#) in the late 1950's/ early 1960's. Some has been replaced in recent history, but most of it remains with end batter because of unpredictable tonnage and priority issues. Cropping and Holland welding in the field was discussed, but never happened. (there's only so much a roadmaster could do)
La Junta - Las Animas Jcn. went CWR because of coal trains on the Boise City Sub that appeared in the late 1970's. Between Las Animas Junction and Lamar the 1940's line change for John Martin Dam also created unexpected soils issues and ballast pockets that also complicated things.
There are production gangs out there right now in northern NM playing catch-up with tie and surface issues until the winter freeze hits. Qualified freight crews to run the trains on the old Santa Fe Northern Transcon are getting scattered, fewer and thinner in availability. The old northern transcon as an escape route gets less likely to be used the next time SFBrakie's bubbas screw up on the southern transcon. Should the need for premium dedicated high speed intermodal high speed service ever return, then the line might come back at some level.
I hve not been over Raton in aprox 18 months(last was via DSW Chief0W0E) New to Albq. On thiat trip there was equipment and rails and ties, staged atr the siding just Nof Glorieta. Of course N of Albq the track was wellmantained (NM Roadrunner area (?).
Since Raton Pass is the 2x daily routing of the SWC, I am sure the mainenance is appopriate to the Class of track. The ride AT THAT TIME W of Newton, Ks. to La Junta,Co. had all the dynamics of a carnival ride...(mostly bolted rail/track(?).
We just drove I-25 from ABQ to Springer yesterday, and there are still a few semaphores north of Glorieta. I am not sure quite where, pulling a trailer in traffic limits my ability to do any railroad surveying. There also a few searchlight signals in the same general area.
After making two trips from the midwest to NW and SW corners of the lower 48 this year I have seen a lot of track go by my truck window. We took US 2 from the MN/ND line all the way to Everett WA, and the second trip followed old Rt 66 and the former Santa Fe line through NM and AZ. Another portion of that trip was I-8 and AZ 238, both of which follow the former SP main line. Shorter portions followed several former SF lines in OK and KS, and a bit of the SP/RI from Tucumcari to Santa Rosa, as well as short sections farther north. Sorry for making a short story long, but I do have an observational point to make, and that is, with the exception of the SW main lines, it looks like there is a huge investment in very lightly used rail lines. I realize that the infrastructure was paid for long ago, but maintenance, taxes, etc. would still be expensive for something that gets used maybe 10% of capacity.
Is it economical to maintain this capacity?
Would it be more economical to pay a few more people to run shorter, more flexible trains, and look harder for business to fill them (even if it doesn't give as high a profit margin as current unit trains)?
All these are thoughts I have had while driving 10,000+ miles this summer, and I am only an observer with no expertise in these areas. I have a good internet connection here at the Emporia KS RV park, so I thought I would post this.
PR
I am hoping - against all odds - that 2926 will be able to pull an excursion or three over Raton Pass as an Amtrak extra.
It would be incredible to see The Biggest Northern That Ever Was stomp up and over the top to La Junta.
Well, all I can say is, and I'm sure a lot of people would agree, if given the chance, ride the train over the line while you still can because it might not be there tomorrow.
My wife and I rode out to Arizona on the Chief last year and it felt like a rail-oriented time machine. Looking out the rear window, I kinda felt like I was looking back in time at my own childhood in the '60s. What, with open-wire signal code lines, jointed rail and "searchlight" signals, it looked all the world like railroading in the '60s and early '70s. There were even still a few semaphore blades left last year - not sure if they're still there or not.
So yeah, if you get the chance, ride the line. If a miracle happens and the line does survive long-term afterall, 20 or 30 years from now it will almost certainly look much different.
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