Those train guys

[John WR]

If there is anything I am not it is a "train guy."  I ride trains; I've never worked for a railroad/  But there are an increasing number of people like me, people who ride trains.   After all you don't need to work for a railroad to appreciate the importance of railroads to us.   Consider, for example, Asa Whitney; he never worked for a railroad but he sure understood their importance.  There ae some guys here like me, people who ride trains but don't work for them.   Most of all I want this to be a place where everyone with an interest in trains feels welcome.  After all, in the long run we are all human beings and I think it is important that we treat each other like human beings.    

[Convicted One]

Murphy Siding

  Some of the railroad guys might be considered gruff.  Maybe they're just no-nonsense  type folks.  I can appreciate that.  Some might think I'm a dumby.  They may be right, and I can appreciate that as well.  I do feel that I need to respect what the railroad guys say, simply because they know their stuff, and I don't know their stuff.  I'm grateful for folks that have taken the time to explain things to me.

      What I can't fathom, is the idea that some folks feel the need to battle with the railroad guys over what they know, and what they see from their perspective.  I can't imagine arguing with a nuclear physicist over nuclear fission.  One of us would look uninformed and silly

Murph,

I made sure to take some time to think about my response on this, before posting.

I really can't recall arguing railroad issues with the greybeards here, most of them seem to have a mastery of their field.   Most of the friction I recall  having with some generally pertains to ancillary issues and/or personal preferences in matters of opinion.

And, imo, anytime you have a group of intelligent people gathered together, you are going to have personal differences. Some people are better at tolerating  differences between their personal preferences and those of others. I have yet to see any evidence that railroaders are an exception.

You read subjects here from time to time that are just seething with contempt for...NIMBYS....college graduates,..... Lawyers....Juries....legal precedent...... and it often appears abundantly clear that those opinions are fueled by considerably more than experience gained while working on the railroad.

Hopefully you are not trying to imply that  (example)  one must subordinate to a railroader's priorities on environmental issues simply because he might run his train through environmentally sensitive areas?

'

[jeffhergert]

I think what Murphy is referring to, among other things, is when someone either sees or comes up with an idea that they think will be the greatest thing to railroading since the steel rail.  The "cargo sprinter" and other similar concepts comes to mind.  They post or link to the idea.

Everyday, working railroaders (some from the supervisory/management side) post the short comings or reasons that it would not be practical for current North American practices.  Then those who think these better ideas start the postings that railroaders (in effect) are nothing more than stick in the mud/stuck in the rut morons for not embracing whole heartedly these obviously better railroad mouse traps.  Eventually the topic either fades away or gets locked and we move on the next reinvention of the wheel.  Where history repeats itself.

Reminds me of the internet poster images making the rounds of a young man or woman management type holding a book or manual.  The caption is, "I don't know how to do your job, but my book says you're doing it wrong."

Jeff    

[PNWRMNM]

Jeff,

I concur. Well said. Many also seem to assume that fixed plant is free and/or capacity is unlimited.

Mac

[greyhounds]

.Duplicate

[greyhounds]

BaltACD

While PRR & NYC may have been doing containers domestically.  McLean and SeaLand brought it to international ocean going commerce as the shipping model at the time was hand loaded break bulk shipping for other than bulk commodities.

Yes, but...

The 1920s domestic container innovation had spread well beyond the PRR and NYC by the time the ignorant fool government types put an end to the progress.

It's impossible to really say who was first in containerization.  I mean a barrel (AKA a "Keg") is a container.  A whole lot of things were shipped in barrels/kegs.  Flour, meat, gunpowder, whiskey, nails, etc.  When it comes right down to it, a barrel/keg of anything rolled off a boxcar on to a wagon was an intermodal container shipment.

I don't see McLean as being so much the initiator of containerization as I see him being the first person in the US who was allowed by the freaking government to implement it.   The NYC certainly had 1920s visions of containers from China moving to the US east coast by ship/rail/truck combined transport.   

There is also the existence of the Clifford J. Rogers of the White Pass and Yukon.   The Rogers preceded McLean's "Ideal X" as a container ship and contends for the title of the world's first container ship.  IMHO the Clifford J. Rogers beat McLean to the punch.

I'll always know that the inane decision of the ICC that killed domestic rail container intermodal service for 50 years caused the American people to pay a terrible price for inefficient transportation.   We are still paying that price.  No government agency should ever have the power to stop innovation and economic efficiency as they did in 1931.  Think of it.  In the beginning of a true economic emergency the government fools ordered corporations to increase their prices.  It's hard to imagine anyone being that dumb.   But the government types were that dumb.   

No government should ever have that power ever again.

 

[Convicted One]

jeffhergert

I think what Murphy is referring to, among other things, is when someone either sees or comes up with an idea that they think will be the greatest thing to railroading since the steel rail.  The "cargo sprinter" and other similar concepts comes to mind.  They post or link to the idea.

Everyday, working railroaders (some from the supervisory/management side) post the short comings or reasons that it would not be practical for current North American practices.  Then those who think these better ideas start the postings that railroaders (in effect) are nothing more than stick in the mud/stuck in the rut morons for not embracing whole heartedly these obviously better railroad mouse traps.  Eventually the topic either fades away or gets locked and we move on the next reinvention of the wheel. 

With that said (well said, IMO) .....I'd like to supplement my earlier post by saying that I recall learning much of value while listening to "fist pounder" types ranting against their adversaries. Shame that many of them are no longer here, (won't mention names) I think many of them (unfortunately) left  back when this forum decided to "clean up it's act" and come down on the chronic  head butters.

Granted, some of them  were a little coarse, but were a wealth of information.  And I miss them.

[Euclid]

Convicted One

 .....I'd like to supplement my earlier post by saying that I recall learning much of value while listening to "fist pounder" types ranting against their adversaries. Shame that many of them are no longer here, (won't mention names) I think many of them (unfortunately) left  back when this forum decided to "clean up it's act" and come down on the chronic  head butters.

Granted, some of them  were a little coarse, but were a wealth of information.  And I miss them.

Yes it certainly was a free ranging discussion forum back in those days.  Michael Sole was legendary in his ability to frame an issue. 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

jeffhergert

[snipped - PDN] . . . Reminds me of the internet poster images making the rounds of a young man or woman management type holding a book or manual.  The caption is, "I don't know how to do your job, but my book says you're doing it wrong."

Jeff  

Modern variation - heard it just yesterday afternoon from a contractor's superintendent (who was filling in for a paving foreman who was off on vacation):

"Well, that's how I saw it done on YouTube."  

(He was just being very funny - he's a young guy, and had spent his share of time on a paving crew with a lute [specialized paving rake], and we'd just had a similar 'learned' discussion about new specifications, techniques, methods, standards, etc.   )

It's very much like the ending of the "Serenity Prayer" - you gotta have "the wisdom to know the difference".   

- Paul North. 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

greyhounds

[snipped - PDN] . . . It's impossible to really say who was first in containerization.  I mean a barrel (AKA a "Keg") is a container.  A whole lot of things were shipped in barrels/kegs.  Flour, meat, gunpowder, whiskey, nails, etc.  When it comes right down to it, a barrel/keg of anything rolled off a boxcar on to a wagon was an intermodal container shipment. . . .

  For those who are interested, see the current "LIRR Intermodal" thread here - with mainly the help of Mike / wanswheel, that's been traced back to farmer's wagons on flatcars in the 1855 time frame. 

Also, someone mentioned the 'sectionalized' canal boats that could be separated and loaded onto the skeleton cars on the inclined planes of the Portage Railroad, the predecessor of the PRR in the Altoona - Johnstown - Horseshoe Curve area, in the 1843 time frame.   

- Paul North.

[Euclid]

jeffhergert

I think what Murphy is referring to, among other things, is when someone either sees or comes up with an idea that they think will be the greatest thing to railroading since the steel rail.  The "cargo sprinter" and other similar concepts comes to mind.  They post or link to the idea.

Everyday, working railroaders (some from the supervisory/management side) post the short comings or reasons that it would not be practical for current North American practices.  Then those who think these better ideas start the postings that railroaders (in effect) are nothing more than stick in the mud/stuck in the rut morons for not embracing whole heartedly these obviously better railroad mouse traps.  Eventually the topic either fades away or gets locked and we move on the next reinvention of the wheel.  Where history repeats itself.

Reminds me of the internet poster images making the rounds of a young man or woman management type holding a book or manual.  The caption is, "I don't know how to do your job, but my book says you're doing it wrong."

Jeff    

There is some truth on both sides of that issue.  Outsiders like to believe they are thinking “outside the box.”  Actually companies hire outsiders just because they know that the “inside the box” culture tends to repress innovation.  Although good ideas do come from both inside and outside the box. 

I once worked for a large power equipment company in a little satellite operation.  We were tasked with coming up with any idea that we though the company could make a product out of.  We were funded to build a prototype of anything we thought would meet that need.  We were professional dreamers.

The problem was that although we were unimpeded because of being outside the box, we had to present our ideas to the rest of the company inside the box.  So it made no difference how great our ideas were, they were sure to be shot down by the inside box culture.  Those people were all up to their neck in problems with the existing products, and were not about to welcome a new product, no matter what it offered to the company that paid their wages.

We found that the solution was to build our prototypes to be much more refined than a typical prototype.  We built them to look like a finished product, and then we first showed them to the CEO.  Then he went back to the box and ordered them to make a product out of our idea.   

[Geared Steam]

Murphy Siding

Some might think I'm a dumby.

er...."dummy"  says spelling cop

[Murphy Siding]

Geared Steam

Murphy Siding

Some might think I'm a dumby.

er...."dummy"  says spelling cop

er.... the OP just trying to be funny says the OP. (Spellcheck did give me "Gumby" as an option.)

[Firelock76]

Nothing wrong with thinking "outside the box", as long as you remember "the box" is there for a reason.

Once you realize that, go for it!

[mudchicken]

Murphy Siding

Geared Steam

Murphy Siding

Some might think I'm a dumby.

er...."dummy"  says spelling cop

er.... the OP just trying to be funny says the OP. (Spellcheck did give me "Gumby" as an option.)

In Scotland, it would be dumpty (as in "d*mned dumpty")

[Convicted One]

Murphy Siding

If we allow ourselves to simply joust with the railroad guys, they'll all leave, and we'll have nothing special.  If that puts me on the railroad guys' tag team, I guess that's where I want to be.

One thing I believe you have neglected to include in your assessment, is why do (our)  'railroaders' have such a gift for condescension and abusive typecasting against any they encounter who "fail" to share their opinion?

"Clueless" bystanders,  "stupid" hospital administrators,  "idiot" civil authorities, "moron" drivers,  "illiterate"  journalists, ...I could go on, but you get the idea. When you have people  contributing daily whose basic approach towards life in general is "all who disagree with me are lower life forms", then you should expect conflict to be inevitable.

if you ask me, those who expect this place to be a Sunnybrook  where all just sit around holding hands and chanting peaceful mantras, are the confused ones.

[tree68]

Convicted One

One thing I believe you have neglected to include in your assessment, is why do (our)  'railroaders' have such a gift for condescension and abusive typecasting against any they encounter who "fail" to share their opinion?

I'd opine that it's because many times the railroader's "opinion" isn't an opinion at all - it's based on real-life experience, and/or established rules and procedures.

That's not to say that there aren't better ideas, only that what sounds like a bright new idea to someone may not be all that new - it may have been tried in the past and found wanting.  

To draw on Euclid's example - if he and his team walked into the CEO's office with their latest creation, and after their presentation the CEO walked over to a file cabinet, pulled out an identical item and said "this one didn't work, either," would they spend time pointing out why their (identical) invention is better?

[Euclid]

tree68

Convicted One

One thing I believe you have neglected to include in your assessment, is why do (our)  'railroaders' have such a gift for condescension and abusive typecasting against any they encounter who "fail" to share their opinion?

I'd opine that it's because many times the railroader's "opinion" isn't an opinion at all - it's based on real-life experience, and/or established rules and procedures.

That's not to say that there aren't better ideas, only that what sounds like a bright new idea to someone may not be all that new - it may have been tried in the past and found wanting.  

To draw on Euclid's example - if he and his team walked into the CEO's office with their latest creation, and after their presentation the CEO walked over to a file cabinet, pulled out an identical item and said "this one didn't work, either," would they spend time pointing out why their (identical) invention is better?

We would go to work explaining that our idea is not identical to the old one that didn’t work. 

Actually, one of the most commonly used tools by people in the business to shoot down new ideas is to proclaim that it has been tried in the past and found to not work.   That tactic is fairly effective because people in the business always have enough credibility to make that statement because they are in the business.   

If we presented our idea not to the CEO, but rather to the whole company inside the box, most of their response would indeed be that they tried the idea before and it did not work.  You hear that a lot.    

[BaltACD]

tree68

Convicted One

One thing I believe you have neglected to include in your assessment, is why do (our)  'railroaders' have such a gift for condescension and abusive typecasting against any they encounter who "fail" to share their opinion?

I'd opine that it's because many times the railroader's "opinion" isn't an opinion at all - it's based on real-life experience, and/or established rules and procedures.

That's not to say that there aren't better ideas, only that what sounds like a bright new idea to someone may not be all that new - it may have been tried in the past and found wanting.  

To draw on Euclid's example - if he and his team walked into the CEO's office with their latest creation, and after their presentation the CEO walked over to a file cabinet, pulled out an identical item and said "this one didn't work, either," would they spend time pointing out why their (identical) invention is better?

In the entirety of human history - there are relatively few NEW ideas.  Most ideas did not have the supporting technologies in place at the time of the original thought to permit them to be successful.  As man proceeds through history solutions are found that permit old, unsuccessful ideas to become practical an successful.  If a innovator can demonstrate that he has the solution to a previously failed idea, he has the potential for a gold mine to fall into his lap.  In the railroad field, that solution must also be successful with minimal to no maintenance after it's adoption.

[Convicted One]

tree68

I'd opine that it's because many times the railroader's "opinion" isn't an opinion at all - it's based on real-life experience,

To draw on Euclid's example - if he and his team walked into the CEO's office with their latest creation, and after their presentation the CEO walked over to a file cabinet, pulled out an identical item and said "this one didn't work, either," would they spend time pointing out why their (identical) invention is better?

Your observation on "opinion vs experience" likely has some merit (in context with this discussion), but it appears that you have missed the  central gist of my previous post,

if in your example the CEO pulled out the prior work  and then chided those in his office as being "About AS CLUELESS AS THE MORONS WHO SUBMITTED THIS GARBAGE 5 YEARS AGO", and then proceeded to dress down his current audience with an array of condescending epithets, ...would you be inclined to excuse his childish behavior simply because his beard was greyer than yours?

Would you walk away from the meeting feeling like you were a part of something important, that you wanted to contribute again to, in the future?

How much tolerance should you be expected to have for some one who is clearly stroking their own ego at your expense, and even being rude about how they go about it?  Are we to be made to feel we are  just a piece, or a part? That is what I saw at the core of this thread, just  enveloped in a smoke screen

[Murphy Siding]

    Smokescreen?

      Pick an example.  Suppose we all went on an NBA forum, and told all the NBA players on the forum that they didn't know what they were doing, and then proceeded to tell them how they should play?  What would be the incentive for the NBA players to stay on the forum?

[Euclid]

Murphy Siding:

What you are saying is that you have divided the forum into two groups.  One group you define as professional railroaders.  You then assume that because they are such, they know everything about railroading, and are always accurate in that knowledge.  Therefore, when they speak on the topic, everyone in the other forum group should defer to the railroader and not question or disagree with anything they say. 

This is so utterly simplistic that I am surprised you are not embarrassed to admit it.  You are using the professional status as the sole credential that qualifies a person as all knowing on the topic.  Yet you have no way of knowing who is a professional railroader or has been one.  You also have no way to account for railroad knowledge gained through other means.  And most importantly, if you hung around with professional railroaders, you would know that, as a group, they are just like any other group.  Some are wise and knowledgeable, others not so much. 

On a forum, I place no value on credentials, claimed, assumed, or otherwise presented.  I only judge what people say based on my own knowledge of what they are saying.  If my knowledge does not encompass what they are saying, I consider the reasonableness of what they say and their attitude in saying it.  If it is snarky, I dismiss their argument out of hand whether they are professional railroaders or not.      

[Murphy Siding]

Euclid

 

On a forum, I place no value on credentials, claimed, assumed, or otherwise presented.  I only judge what people say based on my own knowledge of what they are saying.  If my knowledge does not encompass what they are saying, I consider the reasonableness of what they say and their attitude in saying it.  If it is snarky, I dismiss their argument out of hand whether they are professional railroaders or not.      

  Yes, but......so's your mother.    (Sorry man- the    made me do it.)


     We are all able to take the validity of anyone's opinions- including yours and mine- in any way we wish.  However, it's a railroad oriented forum, with Actual railroad employees participating.  It wouldn't hurt to show some deference to their knowledge and experience- whether you believe them or not.

     If all the railroad guys leave, we won't have much to talk about.  On a whim, I Googled *Kyle* to see if that was the name of a heavy equipment manufacturer in Ohio, like Bucyrus and Euclid.  The answer is.........you'll have to google that yourself.

      

[Mookie]

While everyone is over on Google, I have a question for Euclid - I haven't read many of your posts, since I am more the "how does the engine work".  But I was wondering if you would tell me what is your interest in railroads?  Is it the day-to-day operations, the business end of it, the mechanics, a certain part like MOW or coal or moving of freight or the study of the people involved in railroading. 

And is it just railroads or do your interests lie in other businesses, ie. automobiles, ships/boats, airplanes, etc. Feel free to PM me if you aren't comfortable answering on the forum. 

[Euclid]

Mookie,

My interest is mainly in the physical plant and operations, but not much in the business end.  It began in the present era many moons ago.  I was too late for the golden age of steam, but lived it through books and stories.      

Eventually that interest flowed backward in time and I followed it back to the late 1800s.  I spent some time there and did some historical research.   I was amazed at how little appreciated that era of railroading is.  I guess it is because it is so far removed from the present that it seems practically inaccessible to most people.  Those were the wild teenage years of railroading.    

I am somewhat interested in ships and historic shipwrecks, but not in other transportation modes.  I have lots of different interests in machinery and heavy industrial things like power plants, mines, bulldozers, and heavy construction equipment.  I occasionally enjoy a good refinery.   

For the day to day operations of current railroading, my interest has broadened out to more general trends such as the oil-by-rail issues, new equipment developments, etc. 

[Convicted One]

Murphy Siding

      Pick an example. 

I really don't want to single out individuals, lest the point I'm trying to make then becomes dismisable  as a personal attack. And i'm really not trying to make any one person look bad.

But go back to the Rochester/Mayo threads, the Abo Canyon threads,  the "neighborhood desires a silent crossing" threads and just absorb the diminutive  color volunteered towards "outsiders".

I may like trains, the people who work on them, and the business model  surrounding them, but dang it: Some of my best friends might be.....environmentalists.....or ....Hospital Administrators.....or (shudder) NIMBYS. And reading enough  of the coarse observations often made here toward such "clueless morons"...you soon lose respect for the source of that material.

Now mind you, I'm not saying those guys are not entitled to their opinions, and i'm not saying they should not be allowed to express those opinions. I'm real big on free speech. But What I'm saying is, if you (they)  want to play with fire, then  sometimes the heat's going to flash back at them, and trying to argue that they should be held immune from the same sort of treatment that  they dish out, is fantasyland.

If LeBron dissed my daughter just because of where she worked, I really wouldn't care how offended he became over my payback to him .

[BaltACD]

Convicted One

Murphy Siding

      Pick an example. 

I really don't want to single out individuals, lest the point I'm trying to make then becomes dismisable  as a personal attack. And i'm really not trying to make any one person look bad.

But go back to the Rochester/Mayo threads, the Abo Canyon threads,  the "neighborhood desires a silent crossing" threads and just absorb the diminutive  color volunteered towards "outsiders".

I may like trains, the people who work on them, and the business model  surrounding them, but dang it: Some of my best friends might be.....environmentalists.....or ....Hospital Administrators.....or (shudder) NIMBYS. And reading enough  of the coarse observations often made here toward such "clueless morons"...you soon lose respect for the source of that material.

Now mind you, I'm not saying those guys are not entitled to their opinions, and i'm not saying they should not be allowed to express those opinions. I'm real big on free speech. But What I'm saying is, if you (they)  want to play with fire, then  sometimes the heat's going to flash back at them, and trying to argue that they should be held immune from the same sort of treatment that  they dish out, is fantasyland.

If LeBron dissed my daughter just because of where she worked, I really wouldn't care how offended he became over my payback to him .

Railroaders can handle the heat - they are immersed in it on a daily basis.  I seems to be the non-railroaders that have a aversion to the heat of the topics.

[Mookie]

Euclid - thank you for your reply.  I will have to sit with it for awhile.  I am really in over my head, but will try to sort through the wide range of your interests.  While I will watch heavy equipment work for hours, and I am mesmerized by trains, planes and ships - you go a lot deeper than I would.  I guess you would be more the "how does it work" and I am the "I want to watch it work."

I lived toward the end of the steam era.  It was dirty, hard work, long hours, bad weather, hard on families and you had to be pretty sturdy to do the job.  But I still wanted to work for the railroad! 

 

 

[dehusman]

Convicted One

I may like trains, the people who work on them, and the business model  surrounding them, but dang it: Some of my best friends might be.....environmentalists.....or ....Hospital Administrators.....or (shudder) NIMBYS. And reading enough  of the coarse observations often made here toward such "clueless morons"...you soon lose respect for the source of that material.

Looking at it from the other side of the glass.  I have over the years past read some very insulting and disparaging things written about professional railroaders.  I have read some nasty comments made about situations with which I was directly involved and since I was directly involved I knew the assumptions made by the non-railroad people were uninformed.  Since the non-railroaders didn't seem to have much concern for the railroader's feelings, I have over the years been less concerned about their feelings.  I actually was so PO'd by the venom that I didn't even read, let alone participate on the Trains Forum for three or four years.

[schlimm]

dehusman

Convicted One

I may like trains, the people who work on them, and the business model  surrounding them, but dang it: Some of my best friends might be.....environmentalists.....or ....Hospital Administrators.....or (shudder) NIMBYS. And reading enough  of the coarse observations often made here toward such "clueless morons"...you soon lose respect for the source of that material.

Looking at it from the other side of the glass.  I have over the years past read some very insulting and disparaging things written about professional railroaders.  I have read some nasty comments made about situations with which I was directly involved and since I was directly involved I knew the assumptions made by the non-railroad people were uninformed.  Since the non-railroaders didn't seem to have much concern for the railroader's feelings, I have over the years been less concerned about their feelings.  I actually was so PO'd by the venom that I didn't even read, let alone participate on the Trains Forum for three or four years.

I think there are several matters here needing clarification.  One, there is a big difference between disagreeing with others and being insulting.   Two, it is an open forum not requiring a slavish deferring to employees of railroads.  Three, it is doubtful that any of the rail professionals have expert knowledge about all the various aspects of railroading.  Folks in other fields surely do not.  

I think if we can all be civil to each other (in both directions) it would help.   That means non-railroaders not saying the railroaders are ignorant, etc.   And railroaders should hold back on the insulting terms they seem to feel they have license to use concerning non-railroaders, such as NIMBYs, Darwin material, foamers, lawyers, educators, etc.