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Metro-North Derailment in Bronx Sunday AM

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Posted by henry6 on Monday, December 9, 2013 8:17 AM

Murphy Siding

[ Oh boy!   Are you sure you're not viewing this through a pair of rose colored, good old days glasses?  I'll bet there has been bad reporting and bad reporters going back to the beginning of newspapers.  And yet now,  we're  all going to hell in a hand basket?  I dunno if I buy that.

If intelligence, honesty, real work ethic, fairness, truth, integrity, respect for one's self and for his reader/listener/viewer and for his craft, are attributes which are seen "through a pair of rose colored, good old days glasses" then we are all headed to a horrible end in a world without real information reporting from babbling idiots not working hard so that we are all babbling idiots.  Then anybody with a wit of intelligence and a strong urge for power and corruption can take over.  I could add a note referring to contemporary politics, etc. here.  But truthful, honest, factual reporting is part of our Fist Amendment and guardian of our country.  There are no rose colored glasses here, and the good old days comment can direct us back to the words of the Constitution's guarantee of free speech and the right to be informed so as to make intelligent decisions on our own.  That's going back the Original Constitution of the US! (Hmmm...never thought I'd say that!)  Don't put down the need for access to facts and truth whether it is calling an engineer a conductor, a locomotive and train car or vice versa, or not telling you the truth about the sewer project across town.  Your attitude is infuriating to me, not as a railfan, not as a journalist, but as an American!

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, December 9, 2013 8:59 AM

henry6

Murphy Siding

[ Oh boy!   Are you sure you're not viewing this through a pair of rose colored, good old days glasses?  I'll bet there has been bad reporting and bad reporters going back to the beginning of newspapers.  And yet now,  we're  all going to hell in a hand basket?  I dunno if I buy that.

.......  But truthful, honest, factual reporting is part of our Fist Amendment and guardian of our country............

   Actually, no.  The Constitution guarantees you the right to freedom of speech.  saying nothing about truthfulness, honesty or factual reporting.  I think what is infuriating you about my freedom of speech, is that you wish the good old days to be high up on a pedestal.  I'm suggesting that you only remember them as being better than they really were.  Remember Hearst and yellow journalism?  How about the gossip reporter from the 50"s?  Walter Winchell?

     If you stop to think about it, 50 years from now, folks are going to be remembering today as the good old days.  Scary isn't it?

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Monday, December 9, 2013 12:08 PM

Why is there not a type of ATS timer system on all permanent speed restrictions ?  BNSF  (ATSF ) has an installation where passenger trains there is an ATS transponder that calls for stop until a certain amount of time passes.  Why can not this be a way for PTC to be implemented ?

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, December 9, 2013 1:05 PM

blue streak 1

Why is there not a type of ATS timer system on all permanent speed restrictions ?  BNSF  (ATSF ) has an installation where passenger trains there is an ATS transponder that calls for stop until a certain amount of time passes.  Why can not this be a way for PTC to be implemented ?

You don't go to the corner store and buy PTC.  PTC, when installed will have to work with all the carriers and territories that handle Passengers and/or HAZMAT.  The realities of a NJT commuter train operating over the terrain of the Meadowlands and Key Train with 20 or more HAZMAT loads contained in it's 100+ cars of mixed merchandise freight descending a serious mountain grade are two unique operating realities - realities that PTC must be able to handle successfully.

Amtrak and Commuter carriers operate on tracks owned by freight carrier and ALL equipment operating on a territory must all respond to PTC actions - both freight and passenger.  Freight carriers operate on tracks owned by dedicated passenger carrier - again ALL equipment operating on the territory must all respond to PTC action.

Interoperatability is a tough nut to design and program and is where a signifigant amount of the efforts in designing and developing PTC are and have been expended.  PTC is no ordering a Chinese meal where you pick one from Column A and two from Column B and a desert from Column C.

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Posted by schlimm on Monday, December 9, 2013 3:27 PM

Murphy Siding

henry6

Murphy Siding

[ Oh boy!   Are you sure you're not viewing this through a pair of rose colored, good old days glasses?  I'll bet there has been bad reporting and bad reporters going back to the beginning of newspapers.  And yet now,  we're  all going to hell in a hand basket?  I dunno if I buy that.

.......  But truthful, honest, factual reporting is part of our Fist Amendment and guardian of our country............

   Actually, no.  The Constitution guarantees you the right to freedom of speech.  saying nothing about truthfulness, honesty or factual reporting.  I think what is infuriating you about my freedom of speech, is that you wish the good old days to be high up on a pedestal.  I'm suggesting that you only remember them as being better than they really were.  Remember Hearst and yellow journalism?  How about the gossip reporter from the 50"s?  Walter Winchell?

     If you stop to think about it, 50 years from now, folks are going to be remembering today as the good old days.  Scary isn't it?

+1  [borrowed fromdon oltmann]

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Posted by henry6 on Monday, December 9, 2013 7:00 PM

I don't care what anyone thinks for how they feel about this.  As a member of the media I am no longer proud of the way the big corporate investor owners don't care enough to provide the time and tools and proper compensation  for good journalists to do their jobs in a most professional manner and provide facts and truth and not just headlines and soundbytes.   There is no work ethic or moral aim...just do what the boss says, read off the internet and pass it on without processing for truth or fact.  This is not the world of journalism I entered, that I proudly worked in with others who felt the same for companies that supported us.  Today, nobody cares...even Schlimm accepts journalism riddled with mistakes and lies as if knowledge is nothing, being lied to is nothing, being wrongly informed is nothing.  If he and all others continue with that attitude, all will be nothing.

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Posted by tree68 on Monday, December 9, 2013 7:31 PM

I was just reading an article which suggested that after the big digital revolution which essentially decimated the ranks of "true reporters," the pendulum is starting to swing the other way.  Howevern, instead of working for the print media, the jobs will be found in digital.

Still, it means that real reporters may again start to show their faces and perhaps raise the general intelligence level of reporting back to what it used to be.

Too, the article indicated that regardless of the medium, longer pieces are starting to show up and be very popular, vs the "tweet" and other such snippet methods of disseminating information.

There is hope.

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Posted by schlimm on Monday, December 9, 2013 7:43 PM

henry:  Your statement that I  "accept journalism riddled with mistakes and lies as if knowledge is nothing..."  is contrafactual fantasy.  In fact, I believe a critical and accurate and free media is vital in a democracy.  There are many faults with journalism today, but most of your criticisms on this thread are about relatively minor inaccuracies.  You have apparently declied or are unable to give any examples of significant inaccuracies in the reporting by the major league press, such as the NYT.  Instead you merely repeat, repeat, repeat the same comment.    As to the smaller, local press (what is left of it), the times have changed greatly in the past 10-20 years.   Murphy's comment about the reality of journalism in the so-called Golden Age rings far truer. Eg.,  "1948: Dewey Wins!"   Great fact-checking and caring?  

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Posted by henry6 on Monday, December 9, 2013 7:49 PM

I will, however, temper my statements with the fact I see smaller market news media for the most part.  But the MNRR Spuyten Duyvil 12/1 reports were rife with ignorance and misinformation...

One of the problems in many markets is that because of time and personnel constraints reporters are not afforded the time to investigate, question, or learn more before presentation and publication...rarely do they have time to rewrite a release.  We used to have enough people to call and verify information, to write and rewrite stories for each newscast or edition.  Too often today I see, hear, or watch the same newscast repeated from Friday through Monday never so much as a pronoun or verb changed!   

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Posted by Semper Vaporo on Monday, December 9, 2013 9:17 PM

For me, it depends on how the reporting is worded.

If it appears to be the reporters words and they are wrong, I blame the reporter/news publisher, if the words are in quotes from some spokesperson, then I blame the spokesperson.

I am seeing way too many "news items" on the web that are really "blogs" by an individual, blathering their opinion, and not "reporting facts".  The "news" server on my Android phone is rife with blogs in the guise of "news".

 

 

Semper Vaporo

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, December 9, 2013 9:35 PM

henry6

I will, however, temper my statements with the fact I see smaller market news media for the most part.  But the MNRR Spuyten Duyvil 12/1 reports were rife with ignorance and misinformation...

One of the problems in many markets is that because of time and personnel constraints reporters are not afforded the time to investigate, question, or learn more before presentation and publication...rarely do they have time to rewrite a release.  We used to have enough people to call and verify information, to write and rewrite stories for each newscast or edition.  Too often today I see, hear, or watch the same newscast repeated from Friday through Monday never so much as a pronoun or verb changed!   

     I don't think anyone could dispute what you're saying.  The times they are a changing.  But, they always have been, and not always for the better.  The reason for the *quality* of the journalism has to do with the shrinkage of tradition journalism, which is tied to the explosion of internet information available, whether that information is good, bad, or indifferent.

     The daily blurb can't afford to pay for better reporters, because newspaper subscriptions are in a downward spiral.  .  I can remember when we had 3 commercial TV channels and PBS.  Now,  I can watch dozens of blathering fools spewing the *news*, as they slant it, 24/7.  Better?  Probably not.  Will it improve any time soon?  Probably not.  Has journalism ever been without problems?  Probably not.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, December 9, 2013 9:36 PM

     Can someone tell me how to pronounce Spyten Duyvil?  Spyootan Die-ville?

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Posted by rjemery on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 3:26 AM

Murphy Siding

     Can someone tell me how to pronounce Spyten Duyvil?  Spyootan Die-ville?

Hear it for yourself at http://cougar.eb.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?ggspuy01.wav=Spuyten+Duyvil

That would be a classical Dutch pronunciation.  Locals may give it their own twist.

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Posted by Sunnyland on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 1:11 PM

Have since heard about the engineer falling asleep and not slowing down the train.  My FB friend who is retired BNSF engineer said all the horns and whistles won't slow down the train if the engineer doesn't wake up and do what needs to be done.  Haven't heard yet about tox screen results and why was he so tired that he fell asleep at a known spot that needed a sharp speed reduction. 

My friend and I said maybe a cattle prod under the seat would do the trick.  He's concerned about the caliber of engineers working today, he served the old school apprentice of fireman for 3 years plus and now they go to school, spend time in front of a simulator-which is not the same- and end up running the train. That's not to say all schools are bad or many are not being trained properly, but it's not the same as it used to be.  He could never have started out as engineer, had to do his time as fireman first. Just like my grandpa doing his time as brakeman before he could become conductor. 

 

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Posted by rjemery on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:06 PM

Sunnyland

Have since heard about the engineer falling asleep and not slowing down the train.  My FB friend who is retired BNSF engineer said all the horns and whistles won't slow down the train if the engineer doesn't wake up and do what needs to be done.  Haven't heard yet about tox screen results and why was he so tired that he fell asleep at a known spot that needed a sharp speed reduction. 

My friend and I said maybe a cattle prod under the seat would do the trick.  He's concerned about the caliber of engineers working today, he served the old school apprentice of fireman for 3 years plus and now they go to school, spend time in front of a simulator-which is not the same- and end up running the train. That's not to say all schools are bad or many are not being trained properly, but it's not the same as it used to be.  He could never have started out as engineer, had to do his time as fireman first. Just like my grandpa doing his time as brakeman before he could become conductor. 

The man in question, 46 year old William Rockefeller, has been an engineer with Metro-North for about ten years, earning presently $145,575 a year, according to a NY Times article.  As of the accident on December 1, 2013, he has been suspended without pay.

It is doubtful Mr Rockefeller, no relation to the wealthy Rockefellers, will ever drive a locomotive again.  He might get a job with some short line railroad, contingent on pending legal action against him, but driving a passenger train is a helluva lot easier than working a freight.  In any event, his salad days are over.

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:14 PM

Horns and whistles may not stop the train but PTC will.  Or a deadman control...not the foot peddle fut the one that requires a touch or other acknowledgement...will.

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:17 PM

rjemery
, but driving a passenger train is a helluva lot easier than working a freight.  In any event, his salad days are over.

Have you done both?

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by rjemery on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:38 PM

zugmann

rjemery
, but driving a passenger train is a helluva lot easier than working a freight.  In any event, his salad days are over.

Have you done both?

On a yard track, I have driven back and forth a K4, GG1, Sharknose, MU, and a yard switcher.  I have also made runs with engineers on both passenger and freight trains.  Those engineers have told me a lot.  Yes, I feel knowledgeable enough to comment on the differences of driving passenger vs freight trains.

Have you driven a mile long unit freight train with multiple locomotives on the point, slugs in the middle and a pusher at the end over the hump of a 1.5 percent grade?  I doubt it.

An engineer driving only passenger trains would not have the requisite experience or knowledge to safely handle that kind of routine freight train of today.

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Posted by zugmann on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 2:59 PM

rjemery
An engineer driving only passenger trains would not have the requisite experience or knowledge to safely handle that kind of routine freight train of today.

And how many freight engineers would have the requisite experience or knowledge to safely handle 100 mph+ passenger operations with station stops, multiple speed zones and the like?

I don't think one is "harder" than the other.  Just different skill sets.  So how about we stop the urination contest?

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by tree68 on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 3:42 PM

zugmann
Just different skill sets. 

Indeed - Our normal "locals" are 3-4 cars.  Our Polar Express currently stands at 12.  There is a notable difference (well, duh!).  Most likely the only 100 car trains I see will be those going by.

On top of that, our conductors expect (nay - need) a stop within a 2-3 foot window at the station so the necessary traps for loading and unloading are on the platform.

Any engineer with the essential skills and enough experience can run pretty much anything.  Maybe not today, but once they get a feel for it.

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Posted by Kyle on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 4:06 PM

MidlandMike

I agree with schlimm, you can't disregard the entire story just because of some misunderstanding of rail jargon.  While some large news organizations may have access to industry consultants, you can't expect others to pass on an important news story just because they don't have a railfan on staff.

At least these reporters aren't as bad as others.  There has been several times were a reporter has said something a 5 year old knows is wrong, like when a reporter says "The engineer didn't swerve to avoid the truck stuck on the crossing".  On of the best forms of entertainment is human stupidity (as long as no one gets hurt).

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Posted by henry6 on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 4:20 PM

I have operated an 0-4-0 steam engine and a 44 ton diesels Up and down a siding with and without cars.  I've also had my hand on the throttle and brake of a GP38 with train on a single track. I have ridden in the cabs of  NKP 759 at speed with full passenger train;  took many rides in the cabs of DL&W MU's, GP7's, RS3's and Baby Trainmasters, EL F's, CR's U Boats, Sandy RIver and Rangley Lakes narrow gauge steamer,  NJT cab cars (open door cabs and not inside) and many a NYC subway ride with the motorman opening the door and talking to me, several tourist diesel cab rides, too. None of that makes me feel I am an engineer nor know

how to handle a train.  But I do know I understand that and admire and sympathize and empathize with engineers.  

Being able to run a locomotive does not make you an engineer.  And if all one runs is a single diesel, he is not qualified to operate all other diesels as well as a subway train or a steam locomotive; but neither should he be expected to. Engineers need to be qualified for each machine as well as each foot of track he operates over, and in the type of service..freight or passenger, too.  Conductors don't have to be qualified for any of this but they know they must know what its all about, just as engineers have to know about what a conductors duties and needs are.  Running a train from the cab or walking the aisles is not a job to be taken likely by others on the railroad, by passengers or other customers, and least of all by those who want to be called railfans.

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Posted by n012944 on Tuesday, December 10, 2013 11:34 PM

rjemery

  Yes, I feel knowledgeable enough to comment on the differences of driving passenger vs freight trains.

If you truly were knowledgeable about the subject, you would not refer to it as "driving".....

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 3:30 AM

EXCEPT WHEN REFERRING TO BRITISH TRAINS?

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Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 8:05 AM

Or the lyrics of that great tribute to Casey Jones by the Grateful Dead: "Drivin' that train, ...."  (I'll leave the rest blank so as not to imply anything derogatory).

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Posted by oltmannd on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 8:29 AM

zugmann

rjemery
An engineer driving only passenger trains would not have the requisite experience or knowledge to safely handle that kind of routine freight train of today.

And how many freight engineers would have the requisite experience or knowledge to safely handle 100 mph+ passenger operations with station stops, multiple speed zones and the like?

I don't think one is "harder" than the other.  Just different skill sets.  So how about we stop the urination contest?

+1 

The one very, very different skill is stopping.  No graduated release in the freight world.  No need to make super smooth stops and hit a mark within a few feet.  But, in the passenger world, there is a lot less concern over safe handling of slack.  Stretch braking is still generally allowed...

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 8:51 AM

It looks like the cab signal gear that Metro North is using is capable of receiving speed indications from the signal system and displaying them, as well as initiating penaly brake applications.  The changes made post-accident may be part of the work underlying the future PTC installation.  MN also replaced a fair amount of signal gear post-Sandy, especially in the area near Spuyten Duyvil.  The new parts may have made the change easier.

Another good move is posting speed reductions in smaller increments.  Reducing from 75 to 60 to 45 to 30 even in short stages is better than diving into a 30MPH speed restriction from 75MPH in one move.

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Posted by n012944 on Wednesday, December 11, 2013 10:08 AM

daveklepper

EXCEPT WHEN REFERRING TO BRITISH TRAINS?

Yes, if that was the subject we were discussing.....

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Posted by narig01 on Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:51 AM
The technology to transmit a speed code to a moving train has been around a long time. The San Francisco Oakland Bay Bridge Railway was built with such a system. The bridge has steep grades on either end and at the San Francisco end a sharp curve. Speed enforcement was one of the elements. It was based off a system used in the Key Pier.

The New York Central I think installed the beginnings of what is used currently.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:59 AM

Of course the enitre NEC has it now, and Sunnyside - Wash DC since before WWII, and almost all electrified LIRR lines.

I had assumed MN had it already, especially after elimination of wayside signals.

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