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Metro-North Derailment in Bronx Sunday AM

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Posted by n012944 on Thursday, December 5, 2013 9:04 AM

rjemery

And there it is.  One of the most ridiculous, and ignorant comment I have ever read on this board.  And I have seen a bunch.

Expect to see more of the same.  I'm tired of seeing your non-productive foot dragging drivel.

????  Please tell me what you have seen of MY "non-productive foot dragging drivel"??

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Posted by zugmann on Thursday, December 5, 2013 11:36 AM

rjemery
Railway employees and their unions are more interested in protecting jobs than protecting the public. 

Explain, please.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, December 5, 2013 3:32 PM

rjemery

Railway employees and their unions are more interested in protecting jobs than protecting the public.  I am pleased that ACRE is out of the picture.  From the get-go, they should never have been allowed to be any part of any accident investigation, especially those involving injury or loss of human life.

I will agree with your 2nd assertion - ACRE should NEVER have been involved in the NTSB investigation and having been involved should not have believed they were Edward Snowden,

HOWEVER, with your 1st assertion - you are too wrong for me commet further without being banned from this forum.

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Friday, December 6, 2013 5:41 AM

Links to 2 interesting and provocative blog posts by David Schanoes, a former operating supervisor with about 36 years experience (something like 23 at MNCR), now a consultant ( http://ten90solutions.com/about_us ):

"Connecting the Disconnects" - December 4, 2013: http://ten90solutions.com/connecting_the_disconnects 

Note this excerpt of how he views the union's role - most of the rest of the blog post is an expansion on this, and why - in his view - the union is therefore disqualified from participating in the investigative process:  

"It is a question of conflicting interests, of, once again, an organizational requirement-- and that is the interest, the obligation of the union, of any union, to defend its members to the utmost of its ability.  The representative of ACRE acted in accordance with what he in fact is-- the representative of the union organized around the principle of defending its members."

"Why We Must Do The Things We Must Do" - December 3, 2013: http://ten90solutions.com/why_we_must_do_the_things_we_must_do 

Some other very interesting reading there, too - see the left column.

- Paul North. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by Norm48327 on Friday, December 6, 2013 6:21 AM

Very interesting Paul. Thanks for posting.

Norm


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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, December 6, 2013 6:43 AM

Paul:

Alpa  (air line pilot association ) has always participated in accidents involving their members and even other accidents / incidents.  However:

1.  ALPA never discloses what internal items are discussed during an investigation. The NTSB may have made mistake that the MNRR union would do the same.

2.  ALPA will make recommendations to prevent human factor or mechanical causes from occurring again. These recommendations are often an addendum to final NTSB reports.

3.  Safe flight is always their goal.

4.  Fatigue has been an ALPA goal to prevent for many years.     

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Posted by henry6 on Friday, December 6, 2013 8:06 AM

The problem here I think was that the union spoke to the media making statements that could either not be substantiated at that time or otherwise eroded or diluted the authority of NTSB, MNRR, or others charged with investigating.  The union leader was out of line; it was like he was contradicting NTSP and MNRR findings, trying to take the spotlight if not for himself then to cause confusion or discredit to the investigating agencies. It was like a TV police drama circus manipulating the media to manipulate public reaction. There has to be one agency, one power, from which all information flows in order for there to be order.  Fine for a journalist to question the information but you don't and can't have everybody spouting things whether correct or not because it causes the dissemination of incorrect information and the formation of wrong perceptions at one point, total mistrust of the truth at worst.  

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Posted by schlimm on Friday, December 6, 2013 8:44 AM

The accident was the result of either:

1. Faulty trackage

2. Faulty equipment on the train.

3. Human error.

Someone/something is to blame and when lives are lost or maimed, folks have a right to be upset and to find out the truth.  

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Posted by henry6 on Friday, December 6, 2013 8:54 AM

schlimm

The accident was the result of either:

1. Faulty trackage

2. Faulty equipment on the train.

3. Human error.

Someone/something is to blame and when lives are lost or maimed, folks have a right to be upset and to find out the truth.  

Yes, you are right about especially in your last sentence.  However, you have to allow for the proper people to make the proper investigation, and the proper comments to the proper people through the proper channels.  Otherwise you get  misinformation, misrepresentations, miscomprehension, mistakes, and confusion through chaos.   Yes, Schlimm, there is this so called right to know the truth. But by having every opinionate and star struck  or out to save his own behind buttinsky spewing lies and telling stories out of  line, then truth, even when told, may not be recognized or accepted.  Do it right or let the inmates shoot everyone in sight.

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Posted by petitnj on Friday, December 6, 2013 9:27 AM

All of the parties desire an answer and fear the accident will occur again unless something is done. Because of the improbability of these accidents, there is no need to correct the problem today. We can perform a thoughtful, complete investigation and create long term solutions. Our politicians can't provide long term solutions to their problems; but they demand immediate answers to these spectacular accidents when it happens to someone else. The NTSB is designed to do a full investigation and if the politicians would stop grandstanding, it would be easier to do the necessary studies. Politicians should go to the site, console the victims and families and assure them that a full investigation will be done.

What is most interesting is that the news never covers the final NTSB report and the changes made by their recommendations. That affects people. 

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Posted by henry6 on Friday, December 6, 2013 9:43 AM

petitnj

All of the parties desire an answer and fear the accident will occur again unless something is done. Because of the improbability of these accidents, there is no need to correct the problem today. We can perform a thoughtful, complete investigation and create long term solutions. Our politicians can't provide long term solutions to their problems; but they demand immediate answers to these spectacular accidents when it happens to someone else. The NTSB is designed to do a full investigation and if the politicians would stop grandstanding, it would be easier to do the necessary studies. Politicians should go to the site, console the victims and families and assure them that a full investigation will be done.

What is most interesting is that the news never covers the final NTSB report and the changes made by their recommendations. That affects people. 

Most interesting observations and statements....very true.  And your final sentence says volumes about the three ring circus of wailing and complaints that floods the immediate and which turns into a distant side show sometime in the distant future.  My, My, Mass America Cry...until it is all but forgotten.

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Posted by narig01 on Friday, December 6, 2013 10:17 AM
Just a comment about the union.
In the past both the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers (BoLE) and the United Transportation Union(UTU) have been active participants in NTSB investigations. Has ACRE(Association of Commuter Railroad Employees) been as active. Consider that both BoLE and UTU have been around a very long time and have a long history with NTSB where ACRE dates to 2000.
Does ACRE have the experience of a full on NTSB investigation. This is the first passenger fatality wreck that Metro-North has had and previous to this year I can not recall Metro-North having a serious wreck.
And did NTSB expect ACRE to know and understand the ground rules without having them explained in person. Or did NTSB expect to act like other unions with experience in accident investigations.
Rgds IGN
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Posted by narig01 on Friday, December 6, 2013 10:20 AM
PS This is the history of ACRE :

http://www.goacre.com/Dawn_Of_A_New_Union.htm

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Posted by tree68 on Friday, December 6, 2013 10:28 AM

I would opine that this may serve as ACRE's "pay attention, I promise your attention will pay" slap-down.  If they want to be a player in the event of a future incident, perhaps they'll pay attention to the ground rules.

Or they'll simply complain (like many of today's entitlement generation) that they're being unfairly shut out of the investigation, and that must surely mean there's something to hide.

Let's hope they learn their lesson and can be a productive member of future investigations.  I would suggest that their input can be important - it's always good to have someone who will question things since it makes any conclusions reached just that much more thorough.

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Posted by zugmann on Friday, December 6, 2013 11:48 AM

tree68
Or they'll simply complain (like many of today's entitlement generation) that they're being unfairly shut out of the investigation, and that must surely mean there's something to hide.

Although it is sometimes nice to have someone to counter the company's own investigation - which isn't always as impartial as it should be.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by Norm48327 on Friday, December 6, 2013 12:17 PM

zugmann

Although it is sometimes nice to have someone to counter the company's own investigation - which isn't always as impartial as it should be.

I wouldn't expect either side, union or management to be impartial; therefor the NTSB.

Norm


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Posted by zugmann on Friday, December 6, 2013 12:19 PM

Norm48327

I wouldn't expect either side, union or management to be impartial; therefor the NTSB.

They have their own agendas as well, unfortunately. 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by rjemery on Friday, December 6, 2013 1:36 PM

Update:  Federal Railroad Agency Issues Order to Metro-North

The Federal Railroad Administration has issued an emergency order to Metro-North to take immediate action on crew protocol. The FRA says two railroad employees are to operate trains where major speed restrictions are in place until the system is updated

Source: WABC-TV, New York

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Posted by henry6 on Friday, December 6, 2013 3:28 PM

ACRE was knocked out because of statements made to the news media which tainted what NTSB was trying to do.   I applaud NTSB for doing this.  And it should be a warning to others in situations like this that in order to get the the truth with the facts in the most expeditious way, is to be in concert with the main investigative group bit it NTSB or anybody else.  The media doesn't know the NTSB from anybody else and will run with any statement given them sometimes thinking the NTSB, DOT, MNRR,  and the Mickey Mouse club are all the same: a quote is a quote, and if it's inflammatory, all the better.

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Posted by edblysard on Friday, December 6, 2013 4:10 PM

FRA emergency order 29 requires Metro North to have to qualified train crew members in the cab at locations where speed restrictions are in place…so suddenly 2 guys in the cab/control car are safer than only one?

But before, depending on what carrier was under discussion, one man crews were perfectly acceptable and just as safe as 2 man crews.

Note it say two qualified train crew members, it does not specify both have to be engineers.

http://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L04879

 

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Posted by henry6 on Friday, December 6, 2013 4:26 PM

I read the order and it does sound a bit over the top...but we are entering a major political election year, too.  The incidents cited are each different in so many ways but I suppose the FRA is attacking an implied attitude toward accidents and safety.  The idea of two qualified crew members in cabs insinuates or implies that the other crew member has to be qualified in train handling in addition to knowing the rules.  I mean, what good is it to know the train should be doing 30 instead of 80 if one doesn't know how to bring the train down to 30 on the spot?  I wonder if this in in effect for Amtrak in the same district and if it applies to MNRR routes operated by NJT.   In addition, the question arises if there are enough qualified engineers on the roster to cover these assignments.

  

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Posted by edblysard on Friday, December 6, 2013 4:34 PM

I think what they are implying is that a qualified conductor will be able to determining if the engineer is speeding in a restricted area and inform him of such.

Then, if the engineer fails to respond correctly, the conductor will slow and or stop the train.

All the conductors I know, myself included, are capable of doing that.

Remember the conductor, not the engineer is the “boss” of the train, both in freight and passenger service.

 

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Posted by schlimm on Friday, December 6, 2013 4:48 PM

edblysard

FRA emergency order 29 requires Metro North to have to qualified train crew members in the cab at locations where speed restrictions are in place…so suddenly 2 guys in the cab/control car are safer than only one?

But before, depending on what carrier was under discussion, one man crews were perfectly acceptable and just as safe as 2 man crews.

One would think the 2nd person would be able to react if the engineer "loses focus" (aka, falls asleep).  But I seem to recall a crash in Iowa (UP?) in 2013 where both crew were oblivious to their train rear-ending another.

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Posted by rjemery on Friday, December 6, 2013 4:59 PM

edblysard

I think what they are implying is that a qualified conductor will be able to determining if the engineer is speeding in a restricted area and inform him of such.  Then, if the engineer fails to respond correctly, the conductor will slow and or stop the train.  All the conductors I know, myself included, are capable of doing that.  Remember the conductor, not the engineer is the “boss” of the train, both in freight and passenger service.

 

Using the conductor of the train may suffice for inbound push-pull trains, but it won't work for outbound trains, unless a second conductor, not the boss of the train, is in the locomotive cab with the engineer.

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Posted by rjemery on Friday, December 6, 2013 5:07 PM

henry6

... The media doesn't know the NTSB from anybody else and will run with any statement given them sometimes thinking the NTSB, DOT, MNRR,  and the Mickey Mouse club are all the same: a quote is a quote, and if it's inflammatory, all the better.

Indeed, there are media sources whose journalistic integrity leaves much to be desired.  The more sensational the item, the better.  However, there are plenty of news sources that get it right, even postponing publishing a story until all facts are checked and double-checked.  The New York Times and The Washington Post fall into this latter category.  If a controversial quote is included, it usually is balanced with another quote from a different source offering an opposing view.

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Posted by edblysard on Friday, December 6, 2013 5:49 PM

All the order say is qualified train crewmember….it  does not specify the trains conductor be the other person…although with most of the passenger train I have been on, there are 2 conductors, the passenger conductor, who takes/ punched tickets and handles the passenger side, and the train conductor, who is responsible for the train proper.

Regardless, the second person only has to be qualified under Metro North’s rules and such, he could be a conductor off the extra board or out of pool service, he does not have to be that particular train’s conductor, just a qualified train crew member.

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, December 6, 2013 5:51 PM

schlimm

One would think the 2nd person would be able to react if the engineer "loses focus" (aka, falls asleep).  But I seem to recall a crash in Iowa (UP?) in 2013 where both crew were oblivious to their train rear-ending another.

There are no perfect solutions to the problems of humanity as long as humans and machines built by humans are involved.

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Posted by Norm48327 on Friday, December 6, 2013 6:44 PM

rjemery

Indeed, there are media sources whose journalistic integrity leaves much to be desired.  The more sensational the item, the better.  However, there are plenty of news sources that get it right, even postponing publishing a story until all facts are checked and double-checked.  The New York Times and The Washington Post fall into this latter category.  If a controversial quote is included, it usually is balanced with another quote from a different source offering an opposing view.

I wouldn't bank on that. Reporters-I won't call them journalists-have to get a story out that sells papers. Most haven't a clue what they are reporting on.

Norm


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Posted by narig01 on Friday, December 6, 2013 7:00 PM
It sounds like a potential problem has been identified. It sounds like FRA wants an immediate change in operations.
What may be recognized as a problem is the ATC(Automatic Train Control) did not have time and /or distance to react to the change in MAS (Maximum Authorized Speed) before the curve.
Now FRA wants redundancy in the form of a second person in the cab calling signals.
If Metro-North is smart they will immediately comply.
No solution is perfect. Even with computers things can go wrong. Remember Murphy was an optimist.
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, December 6, 2013 7:02 PM

Am I reading EO 29 wrong?.   Is there only an extra required over any restricted trackage ?  If so then maybe a rider(s) to / from GCT -  first stop ?   Of course there may be other locations as well including the NH line ?

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