Maybe the confusion is that the freight railroads don't have "train lines" except between locomotives. Wires between the locomotives should be called the MU lines. Proper terminology is vital for safe operation of the trains. Plus, I am sure that the reporters don't verify every term used and that may have introduced the "train line" into this accident.
He probably felt the points and frogs of CP12, which spreads out over quite a distance north of the curve. CP12 has crossovers between all four tracks, primarily to get Amtrak trains on the right side going north. The track there is pretty much level, and only a few feet above sea level.
Where does MNRR change dual modes from diesel to electric?
The exCNW ATC, which is different from other ATC systems, does have a maximum speed setting for operating on clear signals. (Normally 73 mph for freight service.) Above the "overspeed" setting even on a clear signal, it will initiate a penalty application. I would think other ATC systems would have something similar, but don't really know.
Jeff
petitnj Maybe the confusion is that the freight railroads don't have "train lines" except between locomotives. Wires between the locomotives should be called the MU lines. Proper terminology is vital for safe operation of the trains. Plus, I am sure that the reporters don't verify every term used and that may have introduced the "train line" into this accident.
rcdrye He probably felt the points and frogs of CP12, which spreads out over quite a distance north of the curve. CP12 has crossovers between all four tracks, primarily to get Amtrak trains on the right side going north. The track there is pretty much level, and only a few feet above sea level. Where does MNRR change dual modes from diesel to electric?
82 to 0 in 6 seconds ? I wish my car could stop that fast.
1. Could it be that the actual derailment parted the brake line somewhere and all the wheels locked in that 6 seconds giving a wheel speed of zero ? Any locos have another way of measuring train ( loco ) speed ?
2. can anyone think of any way that the engine control in the cab car or the MU cable ( including the line in each car ) could short causing the locomotive go to run 8 accelerating the train ?
3. If so Could the loco have been pushing until the brake line went into emergency. If so can anyone speculate how far the train would have gone thru the ground ?
4. Anyone know any way that the brake control valve in the cab car could fail and not allow air to be exhausted to apply brakes ?
The best man made devices made by the most talented people will eventually fail. (Think Challenger.)
Having said that, I will not speculate. I'll simply wait for the NTSB to do it's assigned task.
Norm
BroadwayLion My information from an MNCR engineer is that the cab signal displays "MAS" and it is up to the engineer to know what MAS is for this piece of track. As far as the signal system is concerned, he was riding on a clear track at MAS. [snipped - PDN]
I suppose that Amtrak's PTC-like "Advanced Civil Speed Enforcement System" ("ACSES") is not applicable here - even though Amtrak's trains run through this area - because the track is owned and operated by MNCR.
- Paul North.
schlimm Driver in fatal New York train crash 'lost focus': source. The driver of a New York commuter train that derailed on Sunday, killing four people, told investigators he "lost focus" and went into a daze shortly before the crash, according to a law enforcement source. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-derailment-newyork-20131201,0,5916750.story That really inspires confidence.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-derailment-newyork-20131201,0,5916750.story
That really inspires confidence.
However, this Wilkipedia article on it sets forth some objectively identifiable causes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kew_Gardens_train_crash
Very interesting article, Paul.
CSX had a similar wreck a few years back involving two freights. I want to say it was in Ohio, could have been Indiana. The first train was stopped in the block in signaled territory. Air hose separation or something minor. The second train entered the block on a "restricted proceed" aspect. Such a signal requires a train to operate prepared to stop within one half the range of vision, able to stop short of a train, obstruction or switch improperly lined, not to exceed 15mph until the lead locomotive passes a more favorable aspect. Part way through the block, the crew of the second train observed that the next signal displayed a "clear". Not realizing that the first train was standing in the block between them and the "clear" with a dark marker, the second train began accelerating to track speed. The collision was terrible. I believe the engineer and conductor of the second train both died.
Of course, that particular accident was clearly human error by blatant disregard of a signal rule. This Metro-North wreck seems to simply be a case of distraction due to drowsiness. That such a common thing would precipitate this dreadful wreck is truly a tragedy. All of us, railroaders and non, have experienced the drowseys at some time or another. A second man in the cab probably would have helped, but then again, I recall a Jersey Central drawbridge wreck in the '50s with huge loss of life, where apparently both the engineer and fireman had heart attacks!
My thoughts and prayers go out for the victims, their families and the engineer.
John
Paul_D_North_Jr schlimm Driver in fatal New York train crash 'lost focus': source. The driver of a New York commuter train that derailed on Sunday, killing four people, told investigators he "lost focus" and went into a daze shortly before the crash, according to a law enforcement source. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-derailment-newyork-20131201,0,5916750.story That really inspires confidence. Something similar was speculated to have occurred to Motorman Pokorny (Pokorney ?) of the LIRR in the horrific collision described in this article, because there was no other obvious cause: "Tragedy recalled - Eyewitness account of Long Island collision at Kew Gardens in 1950" by Patterson, Robert A., from Trains, October 1986, p. 38 However, this Wilkipedia article on it sets forth some objectively identifiable causes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kew_Gardens_train_crash - Paul North.
Well, as an aside, the Wikipedia article says that the New York State Public Service Commission had ordered the Long Island Rail Road fares held at the same level from 1918 through 1947. I wonder where they thought that would lead? Increased investment in the Long Island including safety improvements?
I just heard on the news about this this morning that the control car had a dead man's pedal. I thought that that safety device was outlawed and replaced back in the 1970's or 80's after a disaterous head on colision up in canada. All locomotives now have that yellow button that the engineer has to hit every few seconds to a minute or 2(have a cousin that works for CSX at a the shops and refuel tracks at one of there big yard, he said the engineers ask them to set the time for a minute or two because of how anoying it is fyi). that just shows that more money is needed by the passanger rail system to make it safe and effeciant. also fatige was a factor bc the engineer had just two weeks earlier he switch from evening/afternoon shift to the 5 am shift. just some of the latest news and my thoughts.
zrail I just heard on the news about this this morning that the control car had a dead man's pedal. I thought that that safety device was outlawed and replaced back in the 1970's or 80's after a disaterous head on colision up in canada.
I just heard on the news about this this morning that the control car had a dead man's pedal. I thought that that safety device was outlawed and replaced back in the 1970's or 80's after a disaterous head on colision up in canada.
zrail, apparently there are still dead man pedals still in use. The following link is to a blog from a very knowledgeable railfan in the NY area. The very long blog article gives just about every factoid about Metro-North operations in the area including details about equipment. The article is very cut and dry except for the very few paragraphs where the author gives a few comments on the situation but is overall fairly neutral.
http://www.thelirrtoday.com/2013/12/some-comments-on-121-metro-north.html
Here is a small exerpt:
[["Shoreliner cars are also equipped with a "dead mans" feature, more specifically a dead mans pedal that only allows the train to be operated while the engineer's foot is pressing firmly down on it. If the engineers foot comes off the dead man's pedal, the begins to brake and comes to a halt. The M3/A's and the Cosmopolitans also have a similar dead man's feature, but instead of a pedal, the engineer holds the controller firmly down to operate it. Dead man's features can be flawed, since there is nothing really stopping the engineer from collapsing on top of the controller or with his or her foot on the pedal (or there are also other ways of bypassing it, like putting a rock on it or coming up with an elaborate contraption that the hijackers in The Taking of Pellham One Two Three (the old one not the crummy new one with Travolta) used). That's why on the newer equipment, like on the M7/A's and M8's, the trains are equipped with an alerter. Instead of relying on pressure exerted by the engineer either down on the controller or with their foot on the pedal, an alerter is a system that requires a reaction from the engineer every 30 seconds or so. There is a counter that counts down (based on what speed the train is traveling at) and the alerter is reset every time the throttle, horn, etc. is touched by the engineer. If nothing has been touched for the allotted time, the engineer will hear a beeping sound to which he or she will have to respond to by hitting the alerter silencer within a set time (I believe it's eight seconds) or else the train will dump. With this system, if the engineer has had a hart attach and is passed out on the controller, the alerter will sound and the train will dump shortly thereafter if there is no response from the engineer. But in this case, since the Shoreliners are of the older variety, they still had the dead man's pedal.
The train was equipped with Metro-North's ASC and cab signalling systems. ASC or ATC (which stands for Automatic Speed Control) is a system in place that puts the train into service braking if a certain speed is exceeded. On Metro-North, the ASC system only steps in when the train is traveling 3 m.p.h. or more over the Maximum Authorized Speed that that equipment runs on. It only enforces one speed, and in the case of the maxi-bombs that speed is 90 m.p.h. (so the ASC system would only step in when the train is traveling 93 m.p.h. or faster). Metro-North's ASC system does not enforce any more restrictive speed limits or restrictions.
On Metro-North there are “speed limits” for every inch of the railroad. As I said above, for passenger equipment in this case, the speed leading up to the curve from MP 33 south to MP 11.5 is 75 m.p.h. At MP 11.5, the speed limit becomes 30 m.p.h. There are also various permanent, temporary, and very temporary speed restrictions set in place all over the railroad. These can be in place for any variety of reason from smaller curves to lower speed interlockings, etc. It is the train crew’s responsibility to keep track of and run according to all of the speed limits and restrictions on the system. ATC only enforces the absolute maximum they could be traveling, or 90 m.p.h."]]
My problem with this derailment and following circus is the number of "spokesmen" there are...too many a number. Most important is the smartest spokesman: anybody working for MNRR...they are saying virtually nothing! But the federal investigators, the union, and dozens of politicians are spewing words like they get paid by the syllable. Not that any of them may necessarily be lying or not telling the truth. But some are showing their ignorance of railroading and the situation, some are contradicting others, some are misleading, some are ahead of the truth, some are telling stories out of school or sequence, some are usurping other's powers and domains, all are causing confusion as to what happened, when, and, most importantly at this juncture, who is in control of the investigation.
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narig01In the news FRA has sent MetroNorth a letter http://www.wnyc.org/story/us-dept-transportation-mta-we-have-serious-concerns/ Rgds IGN
Heated up the link !
The Letter from USDOT/FRA @
http://www.scribd.com/doc/189095053/Letter-from-US-Dept-of-Transportation-to-MTA
Is pretty much an outline of the several incidents of "Problems" experienced by Metro-North in 2013 May17th, May 28th, July 18 and Dec. 1st. The first was "Raking" (two trains swid-swiping) (second was the death of an Employee when struck by a train) And finally two derailments at the same location in the Bronx) Demands for them[Metro North/Long Island RR] to take action and solve their problems ( Bureaucratic posturing?) and giving them a deadline to respond by.
It seems that the Engineer in the December 1 derailment is being singld-out as the target of the media for his failure to slow the train down as it has been reported that his speed was about 82 mph entering the 30mph curve.
Add this letter to the list of those making statements....USDOT and FRA join the NTSB, the unions, ignorant reporting by so called journalists, politicians (political leaders? Can't say that with straight face), editorial writers, local and state police, and others not associated with MTA or MNRR. Statements from two segments are contradictory while three and more equal confusion.
Yes, all of the above are wrong, confused, contradictory or ignorant, of course. In spite of their vested interest in finding excuses, you are saying the silent MTA and MNRR are paragons of truth?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
It's looking like the engineer was nodding off.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/04/us/new-york-train-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews
Attorney Michael Lamonsoff is an idiot.
Anthony Bottalico stepped outside of NTSB's "cone of silence" and now wears the "cone of shame".
Attorney Jeffrey Chartier is going to great lengths to find other terms for "sleep".
Steven Harrod actually sounds like he knows what he's talking about.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
schlimm Yes, all of the above are wrong, confused, contradictory or ignorant, of course. In spite of their vested interest in finding excuses, you are saying the silent MTA and MNRR are paragons of truth?
Maybe. They at least have the intelligence or whatever it takes to say nothing and let the blabbermouths make all the noise. Later when the dust settles whatever they finally say may be the truth backed with facts instead of facts being portrayed as the final truth. They are well off by saying as little as possible while others are going off half or full cocked....they may be saying truths but without perspective or definition they are just blowhards beating their chests and not proving anything, especially the bottom line to all of this. But MNRR and MTA's absence at the microphone speaks more about professionalism and understanding of the situation and the people involved and about the first class operation the really are.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-derailment-newyork-controls-20131204,0,2777903.story
More developments. Sounds like negligence on the part of MNRR to not equip the control cab with the sounder device as in the locomotive.
I don't know if I can accept this story or not. First, the unnamed source. Second, I've been in or near cab cars in which there is a sound that has to be attended to.
Perhaps you should read the article again?
A former supervisor of the driver at Metro-North confirmed the source's description, although he was unable to say how the derailed train was equipped. "I know the locomotive end would have had to have this touch system, but I don't know the model of the car so I can't say for sure whether or not it was equipped with the system," Michael McLendon, a recently retired assistant director of Metro-North's shops and facilities team, told Reuters.
The mere absence of a sounder shouldn't come into play. According to an article referenced above, there is a sounder but only for overspeed, and is set up to sound at 3 MPH above the equipment's maximum allowed speed, in this case 90 MPH. Alerters are used in the more modern penalty stop systems that have almost entirely replaced the "dead-man" pedals or controllers, which are what MNRR seems to have on its equipment. The alerter sounds after a period of operator inactivity and is reset by moving the controls or touching what amounts to a reset button. The NTSB's own accident investigations and some studies done elsewhere have shown that experienced operators can clear the alerter while asleep by reflex action.
NTSB to ACRE: You're out!The National Transportation Safety Board on Tuesday, Dec. 3, 2013 removed the Association of Commuter Rail Employees (ACRE) as a participant in its investigation into the Dec. 1 derailment of a Metro-North passenger train in the Bronx, N.Y., that killed four people and injured 63. The NTSB issued the following statement:Under the NTSB's procedures, organizations and agencies are invited to provide technical expertise in support of the NTSB's investigation. The organizations designated as parties sign an agreement to abide by NTSB rules for the duration of the investigation. Maintaining confidentiality of investigative information is one of the rules that parties agree to; further, they agree that their organizations will neither reveal nor comment on investigative information. On Tuesday, Dec. 3, Anthony Bottalico, General Chairman of ACRE, conducted a press conference and a series of media interviews during which he discussed and interpreted information related to the on-going investigation. As a result of this violation of the party agreement, the organization was advised tonight that it was removed from the Dec. 1 Metro-North train derailment investigation. "While we value the technical expertise that groups like ACRE can provide during the course of an investigation, it is counterproductive when an organization breaches the party agreement and publicly interprets or comments on investigation information," said NTSB Chairman Deborah A.P. Hersman. "Our rules exist to avoid the prospect of any party to an NTSB investigation offering its slant on the circumstances of the accident."Source: Railway AgeRailway employees and their unions are more interested in protecting jobs than protecting the public. I am pleased that ACRE is out of the picture. From the get-go, they should never have been allowed to be any part of any accident investigation, especially those involving injury or loss of human life.
RJ Emery near Santa Fe, NM
rjemery Railway employees and their unions are more interested in protecting jobs than protecting the public.
Railway employees and their unions are more interested in protecting jobs than protecting the public.
And there it is. One of the most ridiculous, and ignorant comment I have ever read on this board. And I have seen a bunch.
An "expensive model collector"
n012944 rjemery Railway employees and their unions are more interested in protecting jobs than protecting the public. And there it is. One of the most ridiculous, and ignorant comment I have ever read on this board. And I have seen a bunch.
Expect to see more of the same. I'm tired of seeing your non-productive foot dragging drivel.
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