QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal Is the Belle Fourche southwest of Colony inaccessable to a water level grade? Is it in a steep twisting canyon, or something like that which would make it extremely difficult to build a rail line using early 1900's construction methods?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 The C&NW was pushing west through Wyoming at the time to link up with the Central Pacific and had reached the eastern approaches to South Pass at Lander in 1906. The line from Belle Fourche to Colony was not built until 1948. There was a railroad called the Wyoming and Missouri River RR with ran from Belle Fourche 20 miles west to Aladdin, Wyoming from 1898 until 1927. I believe the CMSP&P wanted to go through Butte using the Montrana Railroad (Lombard-Harlowton-Lewiston) and going through Rapid City would have been out of the way.
QUOTE: Originally posted by bobwilcox The bentonite mines were not on the Northwestern. The stuff was trucked to Belle Fouche and loaded into rail cars at that location.
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 I would guess the C&NW would have been granted trackage rights from Minneapolis and joint ownership would have started at Aberdeen, where the C&NW had a line up from Huron ( I don't know if it was there in 1905). Would Michael know ? Bentonite area http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?t=2&s=14&x=177&y=1552&z=13&w Terminal http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=708&Y=6210&W The bend in the river http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=172&Y=1554&W Thing http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=653&Y=6171&W
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 I would guess the C&NW would have been granted trackage rights from Minneapolis and joint ownership would have started at Aberdeen, where the C&NW had a line up from Huron ( I don't know if it was there in 1905). Would Michael know ? Bentonite area http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?t=2&s=14&x=177&y=1552&z=13&w Terminal http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=708&Y=6210&W The bend in the river http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=13&X=172&Y=1554&W Thing http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=12&Z=13&X=653&Y=6171&W nanaimo73 has that right.
QUOTE: Originally posted by Mark_W._Hemphill QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe Certainly the coal deposits are larger than just the Powder River Basin fields and indeed continue on north into Canada. Some of those areas straddling the MILW mainline could have been developed with the MILW becoming a major hauler to the upper midwest. Montana early on passed a coal severance tax to cushion itself against the boom and bust cycle of meneral production as well as to insure abandoned mines would be reclaimed when the wealth had been removed. The hard rock mining industry has left a long history of just walking away from toxic mine and mill sites leaving the state with tens of millions of dollars in work to do to make these sites safe again. Wyoming has not elected to impose this tax and their coal is more competitive in energy markets than Montana coal. This could have been a problem with coal along the MILW tracks. Al: It would be interesting to see just how much this burdens the Montana PRB coal vs. Wyoming PRB coal on a delivered BTU basis.
QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe Certainly the coal deposits are larger than just the Powder River Basin fields and indeed continue on north into Canada. Some of those areas straddling the MILW mainline could have been developed with the MILW becoming a major hauler to the upper midwest. Montana early on passed a coal severance tax to cushion itself against the boom and bust cycle of meneral production as well as to insure abandoned mines would be reclaimed when the wealth had been removed. The hard rock mining industry has left a long history of just walking away from toxic mine and mill sites leaving the state with tens of millions of dollars in work to do to make these sites safe again. Wyoming has not elected to impose this tax and their coal is more competitive in energy markets than Montana coal. This could have been a problem with coal along the MILW tracks.
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal I have also wondered whether it was deemed necessary to utilize the Twin Cities as part of the PCE, or if the planners ever considered bypassing the Twin Cities, instead shooting straight WNW out of Chicago or Milwaukee? If the latter, then the lines through the southern tier of South Dakota would have been favorably located for being part of a PCE.
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Originally posted by futuremodal . They managed to grab the Montana Central from J.J.Hill which took them from Harlowton (mile 1335) to Lombard (mile 1430). This site has a lot of interesting maps from the 1800's http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gmdhtml/rrhtml/rrhome.html OOPS, but no. The Montana Central ran from Pacific Jct just west of Havre to Great Falls, Helena, Boulder and Butte in Montana. Jim Hill kept control of that line and the GN operated it until after the BN merger. What the MILW did get control of was the Montana Railroad which ran from Lewistown to Harlotown to Lombard. and a connection with the NP. The CM&PS abandoned most of the line through 16 mile canyon and rebuilt at a higher level. Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 8:29 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Originally posted by futuremodal . They managed to grab the Montana Central from J.J.Hill which took them from Harlowton (mile 1335) to Lombard (mile 1430). This site has a lot of interesting maps from the 1800's http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gmdhtml/rrhtml/rrhome.html OOPS, but no. The Montana Central ran from Pacific Jct just west of Havre to Great Falls, Helena, Boulder and Butte in Montana. Jim Hill kept control of that line and the GN operated it until after the BN merger. What the MILW did get control of was the Montana Railroad which ran from Lewistown to Harlotown to Lombard. and a connection with the NP. The CM&PS abandoned most of the line through 16 mile canyon and rebuilt at a higher level. For what it's worth, and just for the record, I did not post the Montana Central post. I think arbfbe mistakenly included my signature post with nanaimo's post when he cut and quoted. No big deal, but I get enough flack as it is from the ilks for presumed detail discretions. Back to the topic at hand, I had always wondered if Milwaukee's grabbing the "Jawbone" was necessarily the best route choice for a line that was intended to be a shorter faster route to the PNW, especially since they had to practically rebuild the entire line from scratch. Even with the nice grades through Sixteenmile Canyon, in my view the Milwaukee would have been better served skirting the Belt Mountains to the North via Great Falls, thence over Rogers Pass, a much lower CD crossing than Pipestone Pass, Deer Lodge Pass, Elk Park Pass, or Mullan Pass. Reply Edit MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:03 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal [ Back to the topic at hand, I had always wondered if Milwaukee's grabbing the "Jawbone" was necessarily the best route choice for a line that was intended to be a shorter faster route to the PNW, especially since they had to practically rebuild the entire line from scratch. Even with the nice grades through Sixteenmile Canyon, in my view the Milwaukee would have been better served skirting the Belt Mountains to the North via Great Falls, thence over Rogers Pass, a much lower CD crossing than Pipestone Pass, Deer Lodge Pass, Elk Park Pass, or Mullan Pass. The Montana Railroad was the "quick" route, and removed a potential JJ Hill obstacle. The route that Milwaukee spent a lot of time on broke north at Melstone, through Lewistown to Great Falls, then west over Cadotte Pass (which is just north of Rogers Pass) at a 1% grade through a short tunnel, the best crossing of the Continental Divide of any transcontinental, bar none. With a little more engineering, Milwaukee could have beat 1% and at a lower elevation than Marias Pass and with far less curvature on the west side than GN's Marias crossing. Why didn't they do it? Butte of course was the big revenue producer in Montana in that era. The mainline through Butte enjoyed the same priority that Hill gave to the GN when the GN mainline ended in Butte. However, at the time the final surveys were being made, the final studies were being completed on the delayed electrification project. The results were so favorable that a 1% Divide crossing could not be justified as new construction compared with the cheaper operation and faster transit times, plus doubling of track capacity, that the electrification provided on the existing mainline. Milwaukee could operate its 2% Pipestone crossing with Electrification more cheaply, faster, with heavier tonnage than GN could achieve on the 1.2%/1.8% Marias Pass crossing with steam. The "total engineering solution" of electrification combined with compensated curve track design was far superior to anything that could be achieved at that time with steam regardless of gradient. The engineering solution was economically and operationally superior to the 1% or less grade without the electrification. GN's Ralph Budd kicked and screamed to get the Milwaukee's data on the first year of electrification and stormed off when Milwaukee's VP-Electrification avoided ever providing it to him. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 1:32 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal . They managed to grab the Montana Central from J.J.Hill which took them from Harlowton (mile 1335) to Lombard (mile 1430). OOPS, but no. The Montana Central ran from Pacific Jct just west of Havre to Great Falls, Helena, Boulder and Butte in Montana. Jim Hill kept control of that line and the GN operated it until after the BN merger. What the MILW did get control of was the Montana Railroad which ran from Lewistown to Harlotown to Lombard. and a connection with the NP. The CM&PS abandoned most of the line through 16 mile canyon and rebuilt at a higher level. That was my screw up. Michael, There were 3 tunnels on the main between Idaho and Beverly. I have found two near the north end of Rock Lake, about a dozen miles west of Malden. Do you know were the third one was ? Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:01 PM nanaimo, The two tunnels you refer to are technically on the south side of Rock Lake, not the north side (but on the northeast end of the south side, since Rock Lake runs southwest to northeast). Although gated off at the first trestle, one can still hike the Milwaukee grade, accessing from the Hole-In-The-Ground road and heading west. That's where you'll traverse those two tunnels you mentioned. The third? I have no idea. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:17 PM Michael, I cannot locate Cadotte Pass in my Montana DeLorme Atlas. Is that an earlier name for what is now Lewis and Clark Pass, or was it another passage? Can you identify the names of the creeks that lead up to Cadotte Pass? Would this mainline reroute via Great Falls have incorporated all the branchlines that were built along that general corridor, including the (west to east) Clearwater branch, the Augusta branch, the Great Falls to Lewistown line, and/or the Lewistown to Winnett branch? If electrification ameliorated the usual operational considerations with the grades, then the elimination of the electrification in 1974 must have brought those old demons back to life even with dieselization. Reply Edit MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:18 PM Tunnel 41 2559' Watts Tunnel mp 1840 (Sorrento, Id). Timber lined. Tunnel 43 756' mp 1892 (Rock Lake) Solid rock tunnel. Tunnel 44 704' mp 1894 (Rock Lake) Solid rock tunnel, partially timber lined. Tunnel 45 1973' Johnson Creek Tunnel (Boylston), solid rock tunnel. Tunnel 42 was located east of Rosalia, Washington. The line had been opened for traffic in 1909, and the tunnel was determined to be unstable although lined with timber. It was undergoing a concrete lining in 1911, the footers had just been set, when the tunnel collapsed. It was daylighted and so Tunnel 42 was a temporary proposition. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:22 PM For what it's worth, and just for the record, I did not post the above post that uses north,northeast,south,southwest and northeast all in one sentence.[:-,]. Where are these tunnels? ' Couldn't help but chuckle at your description. It sounds like a joke that ends with "but you can't get there from here". [:)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:28 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal I cannot locate Cadotte Pass in my Montana DeLorme Atlas. Is that an earlier name for what is now Lewis and Clark Pass, or was it another passage? Can you identify the names of the creeks that lead up to Cadotte Pass? Would this mainline reroute via Great Falls have incorporated all the branchlines that were built along that general corridor, including the (west to east) Clearwater branch, the Augusta branch, the Great Falls to Lewistown line, and/or the Lewistown to Winnett branch? Cadotte Pass is about half way between Rogers Pass and Lewis & Clark Pass. The original Pacific Rail survey thought that Cadotte was the best crossing of the Divide, and Great Northern engineers had looked at it very closely. When Isaac Stevens, who had done the survey work in the area in 1854 for the Pacific Railroad Survey was sent back as Governor of the Washington Territory, he officially proclaimed the existence of the Washington Territory while standing on Cadotte Pass. I see that it is not labeled in the DeLorme Atlas, but the Atlas shows Cadotte Creek, which flows west into the Blackfoot, and which can be seen north of Highway 200 as it approaches Rogers Pass. Cadotte Creek's headwater aims right at Cadotte Pass. Even after the GN mainline was finished, GN engineers were up there, still looking around, that pass was so favorable. Indeed, it was the Great Falls engineering office, P.S. Hervin, of the GN that suggested to Milwaukee Road's C.A. Goodnow that MILW ought to go up there and look at it, it was the most favorable crossing they were aware of. Presumably the line would have met with the Sun River branch of the Milwaukee at about Fairfield, then used the Great Falls-Lewistown line that was built in 1914, then east to Grass Range on new construction in cooperation with GN, then connecting the mainline at Melstone. This would have shortened MILW's Chicago/Seattle run by about 115 miles on a significantly easier grade. This is why those branchline bridges over Judith River, Sage Creek, and Indian Creek are such "mainline" kinds of bridges, and why Great Falls has that MILW "Million Dollar Depot," bigger and more imposing than MILW's Butte depot, which was its Montana headquarters at the time, as well as the financial heart of Montana. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:39 PM Murphy - it's "ya'll can't get thar from heah". And sorry for all the directional confusion. Just park on the road mentioned and hike west on the grade, you'll do fine. Michael - Thanks again for the detailed history lesson. And yes I had always wondered why those bridges on the Great Falls branch were so "overdone" so to speak. Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:35 AM Murphy, Those tunnels are in eastern Washington south of Spokane west of you and north of Dave under the ground and on the map on your screen in your computer at this time.[}:)] http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=14&Z=11&X=141&Y=1633&W There were 50 between Chicago and Seattle, of which 3 were daylighted. For your next library book you could try to get The Milwaukee Road by Fred Hyde. Mark Hemphill has several outstanding maps in the book which I photocopied. Michael and Dave, Thank you for the information. Cadotte Pass http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=14&Z=12&X=123&Y=1629&W http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=12&X=123&Y=1629&W Dale Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, September 22, 2005 9:55 AM Terraserver is just the most useful tool; really quite amazing. Cadotte Pass is as the photo shows it; a windswept isolated spot. A BPA powerline crosses it, but it shows up more on the aerial photo than you would actually notice it on the ground. From there, you can see the Great Plains and the Highwood Mountains off in the distance. Quite a view. I found my surveyor's notes. By early January, 1913, Milwaukee Surveyor R. W. Sweet reported that he had located lines enabling a comparison between Cadotte Pass and nearby Roger’s Pass. Rogers’ would require a 1400 foot tunnel permitting a 1% maximum grade, whereas Cadotte would require a 8250 foot tunnel crossing at an elevation of 5345 feet, but saving 6.5 miles in distance, 210 feet in elevation, and 1000 degrees of curvature. Letter, Sweet to E.O.Reeder, Chief Engineer, C.M.&P.S. Ry, Jan. 2, 1913. DSC. The total curvature of 6,517degrees permitted a maximum of 8 degrees of maximum curvature with a 1% maximum grade eastbound and westbound crossing the Continental Divide at an elevation of 5,293 feet with an 8,200 foot tunnel. Letter, Powrie to Reeder, August 13, 1913, Great Falls. DSC. This compared with Milwaukee’s existing crossing of the Divide at Pipestone, where the Milwaukee’s mountain grade covered 38 miles between Whitehall, on the east side of the Divide, to Butte, on the west side. The maximum grade was 2.0%, required two tunnels of 2,268 and 1,148 feet in length, three steel trestles of 400 to 600 feet in length, and crossed the Divide itself at an elevation of 6,350 feet. In turn Cadotte compared to the Canadian Pacific crossing farther north of 5,329 feet, the Great Northern’s Marias Pass crossing at 5,214 feet the Santa Fe at 7,622 feet, the Union Pacific at Sherman Hill at 8,242 feet, the Central Pacific at 7,042 feet (in the Sierra’s), the Northern Pacific’s Homestake Pass at 6,200, or its Mullan Pass at 5600 feet. The Cadotte Pass crossing was a conservative survey. A somewhat longer tunnel would have reduced elevation. The lay of the land permitted several choices down to 5,100 feet. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:42 PM Sorry for the confusion about the quote attributes. I just hit the [qoute] button from the post I wanted to reply to and the Kalmbach software took care of the rest. There was just no way the CM&PS was going to avoid Butte on it's way to the Pacific Northwest. It is hard to imagine turn of the century Butte when looking at what that city has become. It was not only the economic powerhouse of Montana but if the entire northern Rocky Mountain region. The fact that there was financial control by the Rockefellow interests between the Anaconda Copper Mining Company, the MILW and the early Montana Power sort of ties it all together. While Cadotte Pass had certain engineering advantages, Pipestone Pass held all the ecomonic and political advantages. There was just really no advantage to the MILW to build the mainline in any other direction. MILW held onto plans to build over Cadotte Pass for quite some time in order to ship grain from northern Montana to the Pacific Coast as well as to tap mineral deposits along the Blackfoot River. It would have been interesting to see how operations would have developed had bankruptcies had not intruded upon those plans. There is an engineering/blueprint firm with offices in several Montana towns called Selby's that has engineering maps for the MILW lines in Montana for sale to the public. These include the line north from Clearwater Jct up the Seeley-Swan valley to Coram and a crossing of the GN and thence north to Canada and a connection with the CP. This line's story was told in Trains magazine several years ago. Selby's might have maps of the Cadotte Pass line but I have not checked to be sure. Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, September 22, 2005 3:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe Sorry for the confusion about the quote attributes. I just hit the [qoute] button from the post I wanted to reply to and the Kalmbach software took care of the rest. There was just no way the CM&PS was going to avoid Butte on it's way to the Pacific Northwest. It is hard to imagine turn of the century Butte when looking at what that city has become. It was not only the economic powerhouse of Montana but if the entire northern Rocky Mountain region. The fact that there was financial control by the Rockefellow interests between the Anaconda Copper Mining Company, the MILW and the early Montana Power sort of ties it all together. While Cadotte Pass had certain engineering advantages, Pipestone Pass held all the ecomonic and political advantages. There was just really no advantage to the MILW to build the mainline in any other direction. MILW held onto plans to build over Cadotte Pass for quite some time in order to ship grain from northern Montana to the Pacific Coast as well as to tap mineral deposits along the Blackfoot River. It would have been interesting to see how operations would have developed had bankruptcies had not intruded upon those plans. There is an engineering/blueprint firm with offices in several Montana towns called Selby's that has engineering maps for the MILW lines in Montana for sale to the public. These include the line north from Clearwater Jct up the Seeley-Swan valley to Coram and a crossing of the GN and thence north to Canada and a connection with the CP. This line's story was told in Trains magazine several years ago. Selby's might have maps of the Cadotte Pass line but I have not checked to be sure. Hi Alan, I haven't checked Selby's, but I have all the engineering surveys for the Great Falls Western Railway here on my desk, plus the engineer's notes. The Trains article on the Flathead line of course had no idea why the line was there: I think the title was "The Phantom Line" or something like that and pondered why there would even be such a line. It missed the fact that it was all about Canadian coal, Milwaukee had leased huge quantities of metalurgical quality coal fields, and timber, sections and sections of enormous timber stands that the Milwaukee Road had rights to and had even incorporated a Canadian Railway subsidiary to operate on the Canadian side of the border. Milwaukee continued to own that Flathead line right of way well into the 1970s. Best -- Michael Sol Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, September 22, 2005 3:22 PM I think the electrification had a lot to do with it; making that southern mainline better than anything simply because it was electrified. Too, by this time it was 1914, the war in Europe had dried up the Bond Market, and all of the GN, NP, Soo, UP, and MILW surveys in Montana at that time, of which there were literally hundreds, suddenly came to naught. There was simply and suddenly no financing available for any of these kinds of projects. The Great War ended the era of American railroad expansion for good. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
Originally posted by futuremodal . They managed to grab the Montana Central from J.J.Hill which took them from Harlowton (mile 1335) to Lombard (mile 1430). This site has a lot of interesting maps from the 1800's http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gmdhtml/rrhtml/rrhome.html
QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Originally posted by futuremodal . They managed to grab the Montana Central from J.J.Hill which took them from Harlowton (mile 1335) to Lombard (mile 1430). This site has a lot of interesting maps from the 1800's http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gmdhtml/rrhtml/rrhome.html OOPS, but no. The Montana Central ran from Pacific Jct just west of Havre to Great Falls, Helena, Boulder and Butte in Montana. Jim Hill kept control of that line and the GN operated it until after the BN merger. What the MILW did get control of was the Montana Railroad which ran from Lewistown to Harlotown to Lombard. and a connection with the NP. The CM&PS abandoned most of the line through 16 mile canyon and rebuilt at a higher level. For what it's worth, and just for the record, I did not post the Montana Central post. I think arbfbe mistakenly included my signature post with nanaimo's post when he cut and quoted. No big deal, but I get enough flack as it is from the ilks for presumed detail discretions. Back to the topic at hand, I had always wondered if Milwaukee's grabbing the "Jawbone" was necessarily the best route choice for a line that was intended to be a shorter faster route to the PNW, especially since they had to practically rebuild the entire line from scratch. Even with the nice grades through Sixteenmile Canyon, in my view the Milwaukee would have been better served skirting the Belt Mountains to the North via Great Falls, thence over Rogers Pass, a much lower CD crossing than Pipestone Pass, Deer Lodge Pass, Elk Park Pass, or Mullan Pass. Reply Edit MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 11:03 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal [ Back to the topic at hand, I had always wondered if Milwaukee's grabbing the "Jawbone" was necessarily the best route choice for a line that was intended to be a shorter faster route to the PNW, especially since they had to practically rebuild the entire line from scratch. Even with the nice grades through Sixteenmile Canyon, in my view the Milwaukee would have been better served skirting the Belt Mountains to the North via Great Falls, thence over Rogers Pass, a much lower CD crossing than Pipestone Pass, Deer Lodge Pass, Elk Park Pass, or Mullan Pass. The Montana Railroad was the "quick" route, and removed a potential JJ Hill obstacle. The route that Milwaukee spent a lot of time on broke north at Melstone, through Lewistown to Great Falls, then west over Cadotte Pass (which is just north of Rogers Pass) at a 1% grade through a short tunnel, the best crossing of the Continental Divide of any transcontinental, bar none. With a little more engineering, Milwaukee could have beat 1% and at a lower elevation than Marias Pass and with far less curvature on the west side than GN's Marias crossing. Why didn't they do it? Butte of course was the big revenue producer in Montana in that era. The mainline through Butte enjoyed the same priority that Hill gave to the GN when the GN mainline ended in Butte. However, at the time the final surveys were being made, the final studies were being completed on the delayed electrification project. The results were so favorable that a 1% Divide crossing could not be justified as new construction compared with the cheaper operation and faster transit times, plus doubling of track capacity, that the electrification provided on the existing mainline. Milwaukee could operate its 2% Pipestone crossing with Electrification more cheaply, faster, with heavier tonnage than GN could achieve on the 1.2%/1.8% Marias Pass crossing with steam. The "total engineering solution" of electrification combined with compensated curve track design was far superior to anything that could be achieved at that time with steam regardless of gradient. The engineering solution was economically and operationally superior to the 1% or less grade without the electrification. GN's Ralph Budd kicked and screamed to get the Milwaukee's data on the first year of electrification and stormed off when Milwaukee's VP-Electrification avoided ever providing it to him. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 1:32 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal . They managed to grab the Montana Central from J.J.Hill which took them from Harlowton (mile 1335) to Lombard (mile 1430). OOPS, but no. The Montana Central ran from Pacific Jct just west of Havre to Great Falls, Helena, Boulder and Butte in Montana. Jim Hill kept control of that line and the GN operated it until after the BN merger. What the MILW did get control of was the Montana Railroad which ran from Lewistown to Harlotown to Lombard. and a connection with the NP. The CM&PS abandoned most of the line through 16 mile canyon and rebuilt at a higher level. That was my screw up. Michael, There were 3 tunnels on the main between Idaho and Beverly. I have found two near the north end of Rock Lake, about a dozen miles west of Malden. Do you know were the third one was ? Dale Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:01 PM nanaimo, The two tunnels you refer to are technically on the south side of Rock Lake, not the north side (but on the northeast end of the south side, since Rock Lake runs southwest to northeast). Although gated off at the first trestle, one can still hike the Milwaukee grade, accessing from the Hole-In-The-Ground road and heading west. That's where you'll traverse those two tunnels you mentioned. The third? I have no idea. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:17 PM Michael, I cannot locate Cadotte Pass in my Montana DeLorme Atlas. Is that an earlier name for what is now Lewis and Clark Pass, or was it another passage? Can you identify the names of the creeks that lead up to Cadotte Pass? Would this mainline reroute via Great Falls have incorporated all the branchlines that were built along that general corridor, including the (west to east) Clearwater branch, the Augusta branch, the Great Falls to Lewistown line, and/or the Lewistown to Winnett branch? If electrification ameliorated the usual operational considerations with the grades, then the elimination of the electrification in 1974 must have brought those old demons back to life even with dieselization. Reply Edit MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:18 PM Tunnel 41 2559' Watts Tunnel mp 1840 (Sorrento, Id). Timber lined. Tunnel 43 756' mp 1892 (Rock Lake) Solid rock tunnel. Tunnel 44 704' mp 1894 (Rock Lake) Solid rock tunnel, partially timber lined. Tunnel 45 1973' Johnson Creek Tunnel (Boylston), solid rock tunnel. Tunnel 42 was located east of Rosalia, Washington. The line had been opened for traffic in 1909, and the tunnel was determined to be unstable although lined with timber. It was undergoing a concrete lining in 1911, the footers had just been set, when the tunnel collapsed. It was daylighted and so Tunnel 42 was a temporary proposition. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply Murphy Siding Member sinceMay 2005 From: S.E. South Dakota 13,569 posts Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:22 PM For what it's worth, and just for the record, I did not post the above post that uses north,northeast,south,southwest and northeast all in one sentence.[:-,]. Where are these tunnels? ' Couldn't help but chuckle at your description. It sounds like a joke that ends with "but you can't get there from here". [:)] Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar. Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:28 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal I cannot locate Cadotte Pass in my Montana DeLorme Atlas. Is that an earlier name for what is now Lewis and Clark Pass, or was it another passage? Can you identify the names of the creeks that lead up to Cadotte Pass? Would this mainline reroute via Great Falls have incorporated all the branchlines that were built along that general corridor, including the (west to east) Clearwater branch, the Augusta branch, the Great Falls to Lewistown line, and/or the Lewistown to Winnett branch? Cadotte Pass is about half way between Rogers Pass and Lewis & Clark Pass. The original Pacific Rail survey thought that Cadotte was the best crossing of the Divide, and Great Northern engineers had looked at it very closely. When Isaac Stevens, who had done the survey work in the area in 1854 for the Pacific Railroad Survey was sent back as Governor of the Washington Territory, he officially proclaimed the existence of the Washington Territory while standing on Cadotte Pass. I see that it is not labeled in the DeLorme Atlas, but the Atlas shows Cadotte Creek, which flows west into the Blackfoot, and which can be seen north of Highway 200 as it approaches Rogers Pass. Cadotte Creek's headwater aims right at Cadotte Pass. Even after the GN mainline was finished, GN engineers were up there, still looking around, that pass was so favorable. Indeed, it was the Great Falls engineering office, P.S. Hervin, of the GN that suggested to Milwaukee Road's C.A. Goodnow that MILW ought to go up there and look at it, it was the most favorable crossing they were aware of. Presumably the line would have met with the Sun River branch of the Milwaukee at about Fairfield, then used the Great Falls-Lewistown line that was built in 1914, then east to Grass Range on new construction in cooperation with GN, then connecting the mainline at Melstone. This would have shortened MILW's Chicago/Seattle run by about 115 miles on a significantly easier grade. This is why those branchline bridges over Judith River, Sage Creek, and Indian Creek are such "mainline" kinds of bridges, and why Great Falls has that MILW "Million Dollar Depot," bigger and more imposing than MILW's Butte depot, which was its Montana headquarters at the time, as well as the financial heart of Montana. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 7:39 PM Murphy - it's "ya'll can't get thar from heah". And sorry for all the directional confusion. Just park on the road mentioned and hike west on the grade, you'll do fine. Michael - Thanks again for the detailed history lesson. And yes I had always wondered why those bridges on the Great Falls branch were so "overdone" so to speak. Reply Edit nanaimo73 Member sinceApril 2005 From: Nanaimo BC Canada 4,117 posts Posted by nanaimo73 on Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:35 AM Murphy, Those tunnels are in eastern Washington south of Spokane west of you and north of Dave under the ground and on the map on your screen in your computer at this time.[}:)] http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=14&Z=11&X=141&Y=1633&W There were 50 between Chicago and Seattle, of which 3 were daylighted. For your next library book you could try to get The Milwaukee Road by Fred Hyde. Mark Hemphill has several outstanding maps in the book which I photocopied. Michael and Dave, Thank you for the information. Cadotte Pass http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=14&Z=12&X=123&Y=1629&W http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=14&Z=12&X=123&Y=1629&W Dale Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, September 22, 2005 9:55 AM Terraserver is just the most useful tool; really quite amazing. Cadotte Pass is as the photo shows it; a windswept isolated spot. A BPA powerline crosses it, but it shows up more on the aerial photo than you would actually notice it on the ground. From there, you can see the Great Plains and the Highwood Mountains off in the distance. Quite a view. I found my surveyor's notes. By early January, 1913, Milwaukee Surveyor R. W. Sweet reported that he had located lines enabling a comparison between Cadotte Pass and nearby Roger’s Pass. Rogers’ would require a 1400 foot tunnel permitting a 1% maximum grade, whereas Cadotte would require a 8250 foot tunnel crossing at an elevation of 5345 feet, but saving 6.5 miles in distance, 210 feet in elevation, and 1000 degrees of curvature. Letter, Sweet to E.O.Reeder, Chief Engineer, C.M.&P.S. Ry, Jan. 2, 1913. DSC. The total curvature of 6,517degrees permitted a maximum of 8 degrees of maximum curvature with a 1% maximum grade eastbound and westbound crossing the Continental Divide at an elevation of 5,293 feet with an 8,200 foot tunnel. Letter, Powrie to Reeder, August 13, 1913, Great Falls. DSC. This compared with Milwaukee’s existing crossing of the Divide at Pipestone, where the Milwaukee’s mountain grade covered 38 miles between Whitehall, on the east side of the Divide, to Butte, on the west side. The maximum grade was 2.0%, required two tunnels of 2,268 and 1,148 feet in length, three steel trestles of 400 to 600 feet in length, and crossed the Divide itself at an elevation of 6,350 feet. In turn Cadotte compared to the Canadian Pacific crossing farther north of 5,329 feet, the Great Northern’s Marias Pass crossing at 5,214 feet the Santa Fe at 7,622 feet, the Union Pacific at Sherman Hill at 8,242 feet, the Central Pacific at 7,042 feet (in the Sierra’s), the Northern Pacific’s Homestake Pass at 6,200, or its Mullan Pass at 5600 feet. The Cadotte Pass crossing was a conservative survey. A somewhat longer tunnel would have reduced elevation. The lay of the land permitted several choices down to 5,100 feet. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply arbfbe Member sinceFebruary 2002 910 posts Posted by arbfbe on Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:42 PM Sorry for the confusion about the quote attributes. I just hit the [qoute] button from the post I wanted to reply to and the Kalmbach software took care of the rest. There was just no way the CM&PS was going to avoid Butte on it's way to the Pacific Northwest. It is hard to imagine turn of the century Butte when looking at what that city has become. It was not only the economic powerhouse of Montana but if the entire northern Rocky Mountain region. The fact that there was financial control by the Rockefellow interests between the Anaconda Copper Mining Company, the MILW and the early Montana Power sort of ties it all together. While Cadotte Pass had certain engineering advantages, Pipestone Pass held all the ecomonic and political advantages. There was just really no advantage to the MILW to build the mainline in any other direction. MILW held onto plans to build over Cadotte Pass for quite some time in order to ship grain from northern Montana to the Pacific Coast as well as to tap mineral deposits along the Blackfoot River. It would have been interesting to see how operations would have developed had bankruptcies had not intruded upon those plans. There is an engineering/blueprint firm with offices in several Montana towns called Selby's that has engineering maps for the MILW lines in Montana for sale to the public. These include the line north from Clearwater Jct up the Seeley-Swan valley to Coram and a crossing of the GN and thence north to Canada and a connection with the CP. This line's story was told in Trains magazine several years ago. Selby's might have maps of the Cadotte Pass line but I have not checked to be sure. Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, September 22, 2005 3:14 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe Sorry for the confusion about the quote attributes. I just hit the [qoute] button from the post I wanted to reply to and the Kalmbach software took care of the rest. There was just no way the CM&PS was going to avoid Butte on it's way to the Pacific Northwest. It is hard to imagine turn of the century Butte when looking at what that city has become. It was not only the economic powerhouse of Montana but if the entire northern Rocky Mountain region. The fact that there was financial control by the Rockefellow interests between the Anaconda Copper Mining Company, the MILW and the early Montana Power sort of ties it all together. While Cadotte Pass had certain engineering advantages, Pipestone Pass held all the ecomonic and political advantages. There was just really no advantage to the MILW to build the mainline in any other direction. MILW held onto plans to build over Cadotte Pass for quite some time in order to ship grain from northern Montana to the Pacific Coast as well as to tap mineral deposits along the Blackfoot River. It would have been interesting to see how operations would have developed had bankruptcies had not intruded upon those plans. There is an engineering/blueprint firm with offices in several Montana towns called Selby's that has engineering maps for the MILW lines in Montana for sale to the public. These include the line north from Clearwater Jct up the Seeley-Swan valley to Coram and a crossing of the GN and thence north to Canada and a connection with the CP. This line's story was told in Trains magazine several years ago. Selby's might have maps of the Cadotte Pass line but I have not checked to be sure. Hi Alan, I haven't checked Selby's, but I have all the engineering surveys for the Great Falls Western Railway here on my desk, plus the engineer's notes. The Trains article on the Flathead line of course had no idea why the line was there: I think the title was "The Phantom Line" or something like that and pondered why there would even be such a line. It missed the fact that it was all about Canadian coal, Milwaukee had leased huge quantities of metalurgical quality coal fields, and timber, sections and sections of enormous timber stands that the Milwaukee Road had rights to and had even incorporated a Canadian Railway subsidiary to operate on the Canadian side of the border. Milwaukee continued to own that Flathead line right of way well into the 1970s. Best -- Michael Sol Reply MichaelSol Member sinceOctober 2004 3,190 posts Posted by MichaelSol on Thursday, September 22, 2005 3:22 PM I think the electrification had a lot to do with it; making that southern mainline better than anything simply because it was electrified. Too, by this time it was 1914, the war in Europe had dried up the Bond Market, and all of the GN, NP, Soo, UP, and MILW surveys in Montana at that time, of which there were literally hundreds, suddenly came to naught. There was simply and suddenly no financing available for any of these kinds of projects. The Great War ended the era of American railroad expansion for good. Best regards, Michael Sol Reply 12345 Join our Community! Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account. Login » Register » Search the Community Newsletter Sign-Up By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy More great sites from Kalmbach Media Terms Of Use | Privacy Policy | Copyright Policy
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 Originally posted by futuremodal . They managed to grab the Montana Central from J.J.Hill which took them from Harlowton (mile 1335) to Lombard (mile 1430). This site has a lot of interesting maps from the 1800's http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gmdhtml/rrhtml/rrhome.html OOPS, but no. The Montana Central ran from Pacific Jct just west of Havre to Great Falls, Helena, Boulder and Butte in Montana. Jim Hill kept control of that line and the GN operated it until after the BN merger. What the MILW did get control of was the Montana Railroad which ran from Lewistown to Harlotown to Lombard. and a connection with the NP. The CM&PS abandoned most of the line through 16 mile canyon and rebuilt at a higher level.
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal [ Back to the topic at hand, I had always wondered if Milwaukee's grabbing the "Jawbone" was necessarily the best route choice for a line that was intended to be a shorter faster route to the PNW, especially since they had to practically rebuild the entire line from scratch. Even with the nice grades through Sixteenmile Canyon, in my view the Milwaukee would have been better served skirting the Belt Mountains to the North via Great Falls, thence over Rogers Pass, a much lower CD crossing than Pipestone Pass, Deer Lodge Pass, Elk Park Pass, or Mullan Pass.
QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal . They managed to grab the Montana Central from J.J.Hill which took them from Harlowton (mile 1335) to Lombard (mile 1430). OOPS, but no. The Montana Central ran from Pacific Jct just west of Havre to Great Falls, Helena, Boulder and Butte in Montana. Jim Hill kept control of that line and the GN operated it until after the BN merger. What the MILW did get control of was the Montana Railroad which ran from Lewistown to Harlotown to Lombard. and a connection with the NP. The CM&PS abandoned most of the line through 16 mile canyon and rebuilt at a higher level.
QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73 QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal . They managed to grab the Montana Central from J.J.Hill which took them from Harlowton (mile 1335) to Lombard (mile 1430). OOPS, but no. The Montana Central ran from Pacific Jct just west of Havre to Great Falls, Helena, Boulder and Butte in Montana. Jim Hill kept control of that line and the GN operated it until after the BN merger. What the MILW did get control of was the Montana Railroad which ran from Lewistown to Harlotown to Lombard. and a connection with the NP. The CM&PS abandoned most of the line through 16 mile canyon and rebuilt at a higher level.
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal . They managed to grab the Montana Central from J.J.Hill which took them from Harlowton (mile 1335) to Lombard (mile 1430).
QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal I cannot locate Cadotte Pass in my Montana DeLorme Atlas. Is that an earlier name for what is now Lewis and Clark Pass, or was it another passage? Can you identify the names of the creeks that lead up to Cadotte Pass? Would this mainline reroute via Great Falls have incorporated all the branchlines that were built along that general corridor, including the (west to east) Clearwater branch, the Augusta branch, the Great Falls to Lewistown line, and/or the Lewistown to Winnett branch?
QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe Sorry for the confusion about the quote attributes. I just hit the [qoute] button from the post I wanted to reply to and the Kalmbach software took care of the rest. There was just no way the CM&PS was going to avoid Butte on it's way to the Pacific Northwest. It is hard to imagine turn of the century Butte when looking at what that city has become. It was not only the economic powerhouse of Montana but if the entire northern Rocky Mountain region. The fact that there was financial control by the Rockefellow interests between the Anaconda Copper Mining Company, the MILW and the early Montana Power sort of ties it all together. While Cadotte Pass had certain engineering advantages, Pipestone Pass held all the ecomonic and political advantages. There was just really no advantage to the MILW to build the mainline in any other direction. MILW held onto plans to build over Cadotte Pass for quite some time in order to ship grain from northern Montana to the Pacific Coast as well as to tap mineral deposits along the Blackfoot River. It would have been interesting to see how operations would have developed had bankruptcies had not intruded upon those plans. There is an engineering/blueprint firm with offices in several Montana towns called Selby's that has engineering maps for the MILW lines in Montana for sale to the public. These include the line north from Clearwater Jct up the Seeley-Swan valley to Coram and a crossing of the GN and thence north to Canada and a connection with the CP. This line's story was told in Trains magazine several years ago. Selby's might have maps of the Cadotte Pass line but I have not checked to be sure.
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