Montana Coal and the Milwaukee Road

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Michael or arbfbe, do you know where this was taken ?
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=83211

It has an Olympic Peninsula feel to it, but the train is pretty big for that stretch of line. Could be along the St. Joe, east of St. Maries.

Best, Michael Sol

[nanaimo73]

Would the signal beside the 4th car rule out the line down to Bovill ?

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Would the signal beside the 4th car rule out the line down to Bovill ?

My second guess was that the countryside looks like a lot of the St. Joe River valley, and some tributaries. The WI&M came to mind. The signal didn't look right, but, that's also a lot of power on that train and my dim, very dim memories of that line don't account for trains that size coming out of Bovill or Palouse.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[icmr]

How about we talk about Pennsylvania coal on Norfolk Southern or on CSXT.



ICMR

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[arbfbe]

The railroads building through Montana had three different goals in mind to enhance their bottom line performance. The NP built mostly to get the darned thing built. The lined up to get to all the economically important communities and hoped traffic would evolve on the rest. The MILW hoped to tap as much traffic as possible on the way to the Coast and with the exception of the area between Miles City and Three Forks hit most every community of importance that the NP was serving. There was always hope Harlowtown and Ringling would rival Bozeman but we know that never happened. The GN had different ideas. Jim Hill built the line for the lowest grades. That was his priority nearly above all else. He missed every developed city in the state with the mainline and only got to Great Falls, Helena and Butte with a branch line. I guess he figured the real money was in the long haul and with the power of the late 1800s the more cars you could get behind a single steam engine the fewer trains you needed to run. The fewer trains the lower costs per car. Any of Jim Hill's competitors could buy a locomotive as strong as the best he could buy or build. So the hardest competitive advantage for any other regional road to best would be his grades through the mountains. Line relocations were very expensive and not to be taken lightly. Hill made numerour relocations to his original alignment to better meet his goal of keepingt the grades down. The MILW chose to compete by building steeper grades and using electrification to haul longer trains with reduced operating expenses over what the best steam could do. No doubt the GN had the best long haul alignment by the time steam was gone and diesels had equalized some of the advantages electrification had to offer. i do not believe the reason the MILW track was abandoned was solely account they had 2% grades and sharper curves.

[nanaimo73]

I found some burried treasure on the internet-
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102049
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102051
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102052
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102053
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102054
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102056
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102057
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102058
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102059
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102060
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102061
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102062
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102063
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102064
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102065
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102066
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102067
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102068
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102050
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=102048

[Murphy Siding]

nanaimo: Thanks again for the "book"

Miahael Sol: There is another reference to the cost *over-run*, if you will,of the Pacific Coast Extention. See nanaimo73 post above-13th line down, the page that ends in #102060. A publication put out by the Milwaukee Road in 1968 appears to say the original estimate was $45 (or $60) million. The actual total was $257 million.

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

nanaimo: Thanks again for the "book"
Miahael Sol: There is another reference to the cost *over-run*, if you will,of the Pacific Coast Extention. See nanaimo73 post above-13th line down, the page that ends in #102060. A publication put out by the Milwaukee Road in 1968 appears to say the original estimate was $45 (or $60) million. The actual total was $257 million.

Yup, it became a historical truism, even among some at the Milwaukee Road. That 1968 publication, ostensibly by Curtiss Crippen, contained several historical errors. President Crippen recognized that was one of them.

As people came to the Milwaukee Road with "conventional wisdoms" rather than actualized understanding, these things not only became accepted, but official.

I am very familiar with that particular publication.

Among other things, I was hired to fix it.

Best regards, Michael Sol

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe
The MILW chose to compete by building steeper grades and using electrification to haul longer trains with reduced operating expenses over what the best steam could do.

So, you're saying the C.M.&St.P. already had electrification in mind when they surveyed the route? Interesting. I'd always assumed the electrification was an idea that came along after the surveys and construction were completed.

[Anonymous]

Pesonally I feel from what I know that even if the MILW got into the PRB it would of been too little too late but they could of done it just fine because several shippers weren't happy with BN's rates.

[arbfbe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cornmaze

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe
The MILW chose to compete by building steeper grades and using electrification to haul longer trains with reduced operating expenses over what the best steam could do.

So, you're saying the C.M.&St.P. already had electrification in mind when they surveyed the route? Interesting. I'd always assumed the electrification was an idea that came along after the surveys and construction were completed.

I guess that fact we may never know. The planning for the Milw expansion had to be underway in 1904 or 1905. The decision on electrification had to have been made about 1909 or 1910 or just after the line was completed. Certainly no railroad had built such an electrification for such a length in that time. The BA&P was nearby to provide the prototype for high voltage electrification. By 1910 and 1911 the MILW had a good idea what operating costs for a steam railroad in the Rocky Mountains, the Belt Mountains and the Cascade Mountains were going to be. Electrification certainly offered a competitive advantage over steam and might bring the MILW's costs related to steeper grades and sharper curves more in line with what the GN might be paying for steam with their lower grades and fewer curves.

It sort of becomes a battle between fixed capital costs vs variable operating costs. All things changed when diesels became as common as steam engines. The electrical traction motors the MILW relied upon now became available to everyone without the added costs of electrification. Suddenly, the GN track profile would trump the MILW track profile in figuring the cost of operation. Then the question would be whether or not the investment in the substations and trolley wire could trump the investment in hundreds of prime movers and main generators. Given the life span of the MILW electrics vs the GN diesels it would seem the electrics were again more favorable in many ways. Newer diesels did bring in new technology with each generation, though.

[MichaelSol]

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe

QUOTE: Originally posted by cornmaze

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe
The MILW chose to compete by building steeper grades and using electrification to haul longer trains with reduced operating expenses over what the best steam could do.

So, you're saying the C.M.&St.P. already had electrification in mind when they surveyed the route? Interesting. I'd always assumed the electrification was an idea that came along after the surveys and construction were completed.

I guess that fact we may never know. The planning for the Milw expansion had to be underway in 1904 or 1905. The decision on electrification had to have been made about 1909 or 1910 or just after the line was completed. Certainly no railroad had built such an electrification for such a length in that time. The BA&P was nearby to provide the prototype for high voltage electrification.

Electrification was studied in 1906, and in that year Milwaukee incorporated a Montana subsidiary to develop electric power sources and, in 1907, the Milwaukee Road organized the Idaho Water and Electric Power Company for the stated purpose of building dams, appropriating public water for development purposes and to supply electric power to the railroad and other customers.

During that year, water rights were acquired on the St. Joe River in Idaho, and on the Missoula (Clark's Fork) River in Montana, and property purchased for reservoirs and dams. Negotiations had occurred with the Anaconda Company, a major landowner in Western Montana, for real property purchases for facilities, including flow rights on the Missoula (Clark’s Fork) River.

George Gibbs was hired away from Westinghouse to be the first Electrical Egnineer, March 6, 1908. Copper cable was purchased for the first section, St. Regis, Montana to North Fork, Idaho in July, 1908. Plans were so far along that the Anaconda Copper Mining Company's forest products manager sought electric power transmission rights over Milwaukee power lines on behalf of the Anaconda Company. [Letter, Big Blackfoot Milling Co. to H.R. Williams, “President, C.M.&St.P. Ry. Co., Seattle Washington.” 11/19/1908. Discussion of deed language regarding use of transmission lines, “we would like, however, to have free use of the pole line between your Power House and the Bitter Root Tunnel, providing we develop power above your dam on the Missoula River.” AFP Records, Series 57, 22:60, p. 360.]

Best regards, Michael Sol

[erikem]

I don't have a lot to contribute, but this thread was fun reading - my grandfather's first job was assisting with the construction of the PCE around Terry, MT - my dad was born and raised in Miles City and some of my earliest memories were riding the Olympian Hiawatha from Seatle to Miles City in 1957. A perhaps fitting note was that the Milw pulled out of Miles City a day after my grandmother died.

Some of the grading for the North-South Railroad was still vislble in the mid-1970's and remember one BN exec saying in 1976 that it was a topic of discussion.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by futuremodal

QUOTE: Originally posted by arbfbe

Perhaps the abandonment of Deer Lodge Pass is closer than we expect. Apparently UP is interested in selling the line but has doubts anyone would buy the line account the legal climate in Montana regarding injuries to railroaders.

http://www.montanastandard.com/articles/2005/09/23/newsbutte_top/newsbutte_top.txt

Didn't MRL once make a bid for the Silver Bow line, but BN blocked it? Obviously, MRL would be the logical takeover entity, but if BNSF is set on keeping MRL and UP from having interchange, then I cannot think of any other buyer ('cept maybe BNSF itself, and that would mean an invader into UP's sole territory of Southern Idaho.) Maybe BNSF and UP have made one of those "smoke filled room" backdoor deals: BNSF stays outa UP's Southern Idaho and UP exits from BNSF's Montana.

Yes they did and with that Tennessee Pass as well.

[oakpalms]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jeaton

Gabe

Dave has this covered fairly well. I was trying to pull down some maps of the PRB that I could correlate with my MILW maps. It looks to me that the MILW swung over the northern end of the PRB and perhaps could have gone in there, but the timing was off.
PRB coal did not become attractive until the Clean Air Act, I think of the Mid '80s and by that time they were dust. Even if they had been able to hang on, they may have found themselves the third man in a two man game.

The trackage around Puget sound and to the west and south of Tacoma was a bit of a jumble of rights and joint trackage. For example Cedar Falls to Everett was MILW as was Cedar Falls to Maple Valley. Maple Vallely to Black River Jct was C&PS Ry (?&Puget Sound?) where it connected to the MILW owned to Seattle. The track south from Black River Jct to Tacoma Jct was joint owned with the OWRR& N Co. And so it goes. My charts show isolated trackage owned at Port Townsend, Eagle Harbor Port Blakeley and Bremerton, all appearantly served by car ferry.

The isolated Bellingham division consisted of 66.97 miles of main track and 24.13 other. Connections are shown and in addition to car ferry there could have been interchange with the GN at Bellingham and the CP and B.C. Electric Ry at the Canada Border. If they were getting a long haul off their lines up there or off the Canadian connections, I suspect that they would have had to move the traffic via car ferry. I would be surprised if GN would have allowed an open interchange for traffic from the MILW at Bellingham back to the MILW at Everett

I am sending you an Email on the source of this stuff.

Jay