One item I do not understand. ---- There have been reports that the engineer moved the rear of the train out of the wreck scene. If so the only way I could understand that is ----------
1. by him taking the west bound parked train locos,
2. Go west in the siding
3. throw switch (unless a spring switch
4. stop on main; reverse the switch
5. Proceed down grade to hook up to rear cars
6. bunch any slack
7. Dismount and go to closest car to fire he dared
8. Pull cut lever
9 Back train out.
sounds like a lot of items to have been accomplished
Another report is that the clean up company is refusing to disclose how much oil has been recovered at various locations due to a confidentially clause with MM&A. Now that sucks !!!!!
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/07/17/size_of_lac_megantic_oil_spill_remains_a_company_secret.html
Probably very prudent moves on the part of CN and CP. No doubt they looked at what happened in Lac Megantic and said there by the grace of god go I.
I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier, but I finally checked the Maclean's Magazine website. At one time Maclean's was a worthy competitor of Time Magazine Canada Edition, but it has fallen off in recent years. It does however have a following in some opinion making groups, as opposed to the great unwashed majority, so what is said there could have a lot of influence later on. As in new and better(?) government regulations.
I will post the link to its' latest story, but serious followers of the Lac-Mégantic situation might want to keep checking in.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/07/17/unsafe-at-any-speed/
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Today CP and CN are both in CYA Mode running notch 8. Story and video are both very Interesting.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/cp-rail-cn-reviewing-safety-procedures-after-derailment-in-lac-megantic-1.1372546
narig01One other comment / question. In several news reports it was stated the locomotive engineer moved the undamaged front end of the train after the wreck to get it away from the fire. Did he have to release the brakes? Certainly after moving he tied the train back down.Rgds IGN
He moved the hind end cars back. All of the head end cars derailed. There would not have been any hand brakes on the hind end cars. There might or might not have been air brakes applied to those hind end cars, depending on how the train got released at the top of the hill.
Unless you're in the situation its probably hard to predict how one would react. Some years ago when I was living by myself in an apartment there was a fire. It was late at night. I was awakened by people screaming and shouting FIRE!!!. Ironically, my apartment number was 911...ninth floor. I opened my door to see people running in all directions. I walked to the nearest stairwell and opened the door. A huge black plume of smoke came out and (to my surprise) I laughed, and said "I guess we're not going down there". There was general panic on my floor and throughout the building. With the elevator out and the stairwell impassable I figured the heck with it and just went back to my apartment . I figured the building was made mostly of concrete anyway so it wasn't going to come down around my ears like a wood building would. The damage was extensive but I survived without going into panic mode.. learned something important about myself that night..
I don't know the answer to that question. Probably he did not serve, given the timing. However, he is 74, graduated from Yale in 1960, getting a B.S. with honors in Industrial Administration and then some graduate work in Rail Transportation at Yale. He started his lifelong rail career with the Wabash Railroad. he was once regarded as a darling of the rail industry, being honored by Railway Age in 1999 and also getting pushed out of WC.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I have to ask a question. I have been driven to it. Did Ed Burkhardt ever serve in the USA Afrmed Forces? When I realize that I can claim that my own reaction in such a disaster would HOPEFULLY to keep my mouth shut about blame and causes (if I were in Ed Burkhardt's position) and keep saying that I wished to be as helpful to the community in restoration as possible ---this is definitely the result of my period in the US Army and the lessons that service taught me.
blue streak 1The location of the accident may have very few 7000 - 8000 gallon tanker trailers available or even small trucks. Many of the trucks and trailers in that area may have other commitments. + also may not be suitable to carry this product ?. Specialized pumps may also be needed ? Then where will the oil be taken ? It may be the closest location to take this oil is what was its final destination ?
I think you have hit the nail on the head on all points.
The land based oil business in Canada is almost entirely based in the western provinces with some still in Ontario. There is off-shore oil production off of Canada's east coast, but I suspect things like pumping equipment is probably adapted to that specific use. And the irony is, the remaining oil is very likely going to be transported to the Irving Oil Refinery in the end. There are refineries in Montreal, but they may only be set up to receive water borne crude.
Ulrich According to the CBC news last night, the people actually want the railway, even now. There is some heavy industry there and the MM&A does offer I direct connection to Central Canada and the US. I take Burkhardt's statements with some consideration. He made them at what was probably the worst moment in his life. How would you and I react under similar circumstances? I don't know. It is easy to say we'd make all the right moves..
According to the CBC news last night, the people actually want the railway, even now. There is some heavy industry there and the MM&A does offer I direct connection to Central Canada and the US.
I take Burkhardt's statements with some consideration. He made them at what was probably the worst moment in his life. How would you and I react under similar circumstances? I don't know. It is easy to say we'd make all the right moves..
Yes, the town is torn between getting rid of the railroad and saving it for their own prosperity. Regarding Burkhardt, I would not forgive his comments because of the stress of the disaster. Such a disaster brings out the true character.
For those of you interested, here is a link to NASA where there is a nighttime photo from space of the fire: http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=81581&src=eoa-iotd
On a related note, here is a link to a NASA photo of the area surrounding the Royal Gorge bridge and how it has survived the area wildfire: http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=81634&src=eoa-iotd
Bucyrus I read one article that said that the people of Lac-Megantic have offered a prominent excavating contractor large sums of money to remove the MM&A tracks from the town. But they are thinking of leaving one rail in place in case they need to run Burkhardt out of town on it if he shows up again.
I read one article that said that the people of Lac-Megantic have offered a prominent excavating contractor large sums of money to remove the MM&A tracks from the town. But they are thinking of leaving one rail in place in case they need to run Burkhardt out of town on it if he shows up again.
About the post of only a few cars have been off loaded. The location of the accident may have very few 7000 - 8000 gallon tanker trailers available or even small trucks. Many of the trucks and trailers in that area may have other commitments. + also may not be suitable to carry this product ?. Specialized pumps may also be needed ? Then where will the oil be taken ? It may be the closest location to take this oil is what was its final destination ?
One result may be the parking of any train on a descending slope may have to be looked at much harder. Suspect we may see many derails go in at some of these locations ? HOS should be changed to allow for on the law crews to take a train to a "safe " location ?
UlrichWHEN THE LINE IS REOPENED
Russell
Regarding the comment above by Carl Fowler, I agree about the need for the industry to respond to a number of issues that he mentioned. And I agree with his preference to not attack the engineer. However, I disagree with his preference to not criticize Burkhardt.
In the first place, in everything I have read in the news, and in all of this discussion here, I have not heard one comment attacking the engineer.
But there is a boatload of criticism directed at Mr. Burkhardt, but not for him causing the crash. The criticizing of Mr. Burkhardt is for his childish, tone deaf response to the disaster. I am sure that most of the citizens of Lac-Megantic do not need a lecture about it being improper to blame somebody until all the facts are known. Mr. Burkhadt’s attitude is the one fact that they are responding to, and it is as plain as day.
Furthermore, regarding the attacking of the engineer, it is only Burkhardt who is attacking the engineer. The people have heard the engineer's claim of having set hand brakes on the engines and cars. They heard Burkhardt back up that claim by the engineer. Many news articles wonder why Burkhardt backed up his engineer one day and stabbed him in the back the next day. I am sure the people of Lac-Megantic wonder about that too. Many of those people know the engineer personally, and they have also experienced the character of Mr. Burkhardt. It seems evident that most of them are not about to jump on the engineer based on the shifting testimony of Ed Burkhardt.
Here is a great article highlighting how Burkhardt has botched the public relations of this tradegedy:
http://www.calgaryherald.com/business/Railway+boss+Edward+Burkhardt+plants+foot+mouth+after+Megantic/8655472/story.html
From the link:
"I mean, they were screaming about how I took three days to get there," Burkhardt told CNN Thursday. "People wanted to throw stones at me. I showed up and they threw stones. But that doesn't accomplish anything." Of course, bad mouthing people overcome by raw emotion doesn't accomplish much either.
This accident has caused some people to start questioning the safety of the oil trains that come through my town. So far my activist neighbors aren't up in arms about it, but that could change.
The member formerly known as "TimChgo9"
RailvtCanada does not have the US 12 hour rule set in stone in its regulations
I don't think the Canadian rules are any less set in stone than the comparable US rules.
Transport Canada's Work/Rest Rules for Railway Operating Employees spells it out like this:
If you will permit me to share a comment previously posted on the Fred Frailey TRAINS blog:In my view this entire tragedy calls for a number of responses, none of which for now include attacking MM&A executives or the, you can be sure, deeply traumatized engineer.We do not know what happened to set off the run-away train. There is endless speculation, but we do not know. Before entering into recriminations we must find out.There are matters which are fit for discussion and review, which revolve not solely around bashing the operating practices of the MM&A, or any lonely employee, but rather much of the industry.Does it make sense to poerate any long trains and particularly hazerdous materials trains with a one-man crew? Are the hours in service practices prevailing appropriate to such trains as a 70+ car oil special. (Canada does not have the US 12 hour rule set in stone in its regulations).As much as the industry desired to be rid of cabooses, would it perhaps be wise to use them not only on a few yard movements, but routinely on long road freights involving hazardous cargoes. Setting hand-breaks on a 70 car train would obviously have gone faster and almost certainly with more review if staff had started from both the head and rear ends of the train.FRED devices may adequately monitor brake pressure when a train is moving, but they can not "see" a shifted load, nor a car part way through the train, but closer to the rear of a mile-long freight than what can be observed from the cab. And if the engineer is properly watching the approaching railway how can he/she reasonably also check on the train behind on a routine basis?Should trains ever be parked for an extended stay on a steep grade? If they must be should portable derails be provided for use in front of the train in the direction that a roll-awawy could occur?Are the types of tank cars being used for new types of petroleum shipments appropriate to what are not standard fuel-oil cargoes?For those of us who care about the industry these sorts of questions deserve far more consideration than matters of "guilt" which the authorities and the railroad will address after a proper investigation. Not every RCMP or QPPF (Quebec Provincial Police Force) officer may underatand railways, but they will be aided in their investigation by Ministry of Transport and railway investigators who do. Until they report and until there are results from any subsequent trials no one person is guilty of anything.The industy needs to focus on policy and practice.Carl H. FowlerPresident'CHF Rail Consulting LLCRail Travel Adventures
narig01One question. In order to move this cargo does the shipper have to mix in other materials or solvents to get it to flow easily? Thx IGN
You may have read that the tar sands heavy oil is sometimes diluted with a light crude such as condensate, so as to make it flow easier. However, the Lac Megantic disaster involved Bakken oil which is a light crude. The Sierra Club does not like Bakken because the wells are "fracked" after drilling. The frac fluid is recovered before the wells are put into regular oil production, so I don't know what their issue is with the oil's composition.
Ed Burkhardt has a history of being anti-union and running a bare-bones operation (WC). Perhaps because of the parallels, some folks liken him to the Ayn Rand character and thus he has been admired in some circles.
Good point. His track is good for 63, but not 64.
I guess I'd argue with him over one detail...his train crashed at the bottom of the hill. and I'll bet when they come back there will be two people on each train.
Ed Burkhadt often resorts to sarcasm as a defense when he responds to criticism over the crash. When discussing his company’s culpability in the cause of the crash, he said this:
“And of course our one-person crews will be blamed, as will track conditions, neither of which had any relationship to what occurred. I guess our track is good for 63 mph, because that is how fast the train was travelling at the bottom of the hill.”
So if anybody doubts that Mr Burkhardt’s track is good enough, he has got a fatal runaway train to prove his track can take the speed.
And then he wonders why the people of Lac-Megantic throw rocks at him.
Some positive news this afternoon... MM&A is laying off some workers in Farnham, QC BUT WILL RECALL THEM WHEN THE LINE IS REOPENED.
zardoz I just wanted to be post #400.
I just wanted to be post #400.
I don't know if this ruins your day, but the way I figure it you are reply #400, post #401.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Earlier today the media was allowed into the outer edge of the "Red Zone". There were pool reporters allowed. So I have provided links to the two Calgary newspapers to show a range of photos of the site. Because of the pool arrangement there are duplicates.
http://www.calgarysun.com/2013/07/16/runaway-train-engineer-devastated-lawyer
http://www.calgaryherald.com/story.html?id=8667633&tab=PHOT
One other item I picked up in passing was that at this point only 9 of the 72 tank cars have been emptied/cleared of their cargo. The clearing process is expected to take several weeks.
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