Village evacuated after Quebec train derailment

[blownout cylinder]

http://www.wmtw.com/news/maine/central/village-evacuated-after-quebec-train-derailment/-/8791976/20860670/-/4knpgjz/-/index.html

The story indicates at least 80 cars are on fire...

[Phoebe Vet]

ABC News had some dramatic video of it this morning.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/International/lac-megantic-quebec-canada-town-evacuated-freight-train/story?id=19593581#.UdggGSrD_IU 

[blownout cylinder]

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/train-derailment-sparks-major-fire-quebecs-eastern-townships-124101421.html

[Anonymous]

In the thread Oil By Rail-Part 2, the following link was posted.  It is about public opposition to hauling oil by rail:  http://www.king5.com/news/business/185072141.html.

 

Two days ago on that thread, I said the following about that article and predicted the most costly train wreck in history because of the damage it will do to the oil-hauling rail business:

 

“What they are arguing is that they have stopped a pipeline because it is hazardous to the planet, and they are equally justified in stopping the oil trains for the same reason. This does not look good for the sudden rail boom in oil. Eventually an oil train is going to pile up and spill a lot of oil. When it does, it will become the symbol for the greens to advance their case that oil trains should be banned or regulated out of existence.

It will make no difference how much actual damage the first oil train spill does. It will simply demonstrate what is possible. It will be the trigger for the kneejerk reaction in the regulatory community. As such, it will be the most costly train wreck in history due the damage it will do the oil hauling rail business.”

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

I would say that this Quebec derailment is exactly the pivotal event that I was predicting.  It is amazing that it only took two days to materialize.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Various other Canadian reports within the last hour indicate that the train - hauling crude oil - was 73 cars, and that at least 4 are burning; that the several stores in downtown have been destroyed, several people are missing and feared dead, the entire town is evacuated and a 1 kilometer safety perimeter has been set up; that over 100 firefighters are involved, including some from across the border in the U.S.; and that a large quantity of crude oil has been spilled into the local river. 

Definitely a major setback to claims of rail being able to haul crude oil safely, compared to pipelines, and the repercussions will last for several years.  A worse scenario is hard to envision . . . almost no explanation will be "good enough" to satisfy the public, media, and politicians. 

- Paul North.   

[zugmann]

RBN energy blog was saying the same things a few months ago. 

Bucyrus

In the thread Oil By Rail-Part 2, the following link was posted.  It is about public opposition to hauling oil by rail:  http://www.king5.com/news/business/185072141.html.

 

Two days ago on that thread, I said the following about that article and predicted the most costly train wreck in history because of the damage it will do to the oil-hauling rail business:

 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Bucyrus, sad to say, but it looks like you were indeed accurately prescient on that one, and I have to agree with your conclusion and prediction of the effects, too - "the most costly train wreck in history", etc.  Too bad it did come to pass, as bad as you feared . . .  I never expected that zero derailments would occur, but had hoped the numbers would be low, and that the damage and leaks would be limited to a handful of cars.  Evidently my optimism was misplaced or unjustified . . .   

- Paul North. 

[NorthWest]

I'm not sure we should be predicting too much gloom... It depends on the cause. IF it is a broken rail, the railroads can say "Look at Metro North. Should we regulate commuter trains out of existence?" The biggest problem I see is public outcry, with the usual "What, they're hauling toxic goods by my house?" And subsequent fight against the railroad. 

[BroadwayLion]

Paul_D_North_Jr

Definitely a major setback to claims of rail being able to haul crude oil safely, compared to pipelines, and the repercussions will last for several years.  A worse scenario is hard to envision . . . almost no explanation will be "good enough" to satisfy the public, media, and politicians.

But unnoticed in this mornings paper: A pipeline rupture on an Indian Reservation spilling over 25,000 gallons of oil. Maybe there is no news in that, but there is no safety in that either.

ROAR

[Semper Vaporo]

When those complainers are ready to give up their cars and warm houses in the winter, not to mention the food and other goods that require crude oil to be refined and used in various manufacturing steps, I am sure the RRs will have no need to be hauling that dastardly stuff and pipe lines will be unneeded as well.

 

Just think, a world without plastics of any sort, less diverse nutritional options (can't haul the stuff to market without fuel!), and zero tourism (unless you'd like to walk to a national park!) as well as thousands of things that are available today and taken for granted that won't exist without crude oil or its derivatives being piped or hauled from the source of the crude to the usage points. People in North Dakota can drive anywhere they want and have warm houses but cannot have fresh fruit from Florida or California, but New Yorkers can "just walk" where they want to go ... at least the exercise will keep them warm, even if they have no Wheaties or Cheerio's for breakfast and fruit for dessert after the evening meal.

[NorthWest]

Lion: do you have a link to a news story?

[BroadwayLion]

NorthWest

Lion: do you have a link to a news story?

LYNX

[NorthWest]

Thank you.

From this video, it doesn't seem like all cars are burning, just at the front of the train:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Gl49CpPQtc

[n012944]

Bucyrus

I would say that this Quebec derailment is exactly the pivotal event that I was predicting.  It is amazing that it only took two days to materialize.

I would say you are trying too hard to predict doom.  Ethanol trains have derailed with some explosive results, and yet ethanol trains still roll along.  

http://www.examiner.com/video/norfolk-southern-ethanol-train-derailment-new-brighton-pa

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/11/ohio-train-derails_n_1664505.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/44814033/ns/us_news-life/t/ill-town-evacuated-after-train-carrying-ethanol-derails/#.UdhPQPk70_4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEpUzHyJf9Q

So, why will there be such an outcry about oil trains, but not ethanol?

[cx500]

On one of the videos the flashing "Fred" is visible, so it appears the derailed cars are towards the rear of the train. 

I am more curious about what actually caused the oil to ignite.  Crude oil is not as volatile as certain other petroleum products, and more commonly creates a big mess as it spills.  Once something like the raging inferno seen here occurs, of course, all bets are off.

Speculation as to the cause of the derailment will have to wait until qualified investigators can approach the scene, unless evidence of track damage and/or mechanical debris is found further back.  Considering the time, there is even a possibility a drunk driver turned into the side of the train at a grade crossing.

John

[Anonymous]

n012944

Bucyrus

I would say that this Quebec derailment is exactly the pivotal event that I was predicting.  It is amazing that it only took two days to materialize.

I would say you are trying too hard to predict doom.  Ethanol trains have derailed with some explosive results, and yet ethanol trains still roll along.  

So, why will there be such an outcry about oil trains, but not ethanol?

It is because ethanol is considered to be carbon neutral and petroleum is not. Ethanol is the darling of people who hate fossil fuels. 

[karldotcom]

Slightly off-topic, but the "complainers" that successfully got San Onofre Nuclear Power Plant to shut down in Southern California h are now complaining (weeks later) about their higher electricity costs.  

[blue streak 1]

 UH OH   The law of unintended consequences might have come to light.   The folowing media posting says that the train was a run away.  According to the following report the MM&A crew had gotten off the train waiting for a relief crew and the train left on its own.

Unintended consequence ?  Requiring a crew that has gone illegal  on haz mat train to leave any train un- attended with the possibility of just this type of incident happening.  

http://news.yahoo.com/train-carrying-petroleum-derails-catches-fire-canadas-quebec-121417580.html 

This problem needs probably addressed in very detail. in a separate thread.

[n012944]

Bucyrus

n012944

Bucyrus

I would say that this Quebec derailment is exactly the pivotal event that I was predicting.  It is amazing that it only took two days to materialize.

I would say you are trying too hard to predict doom.  Ethanol trains have derailed with some explosive results, and yet ethanol trains still roll along.  

So, why will there be such an outcry about oil trains, but not ethanol?

It is because ethanol is considered to be carbon neutral and petroleum is not. Ethanol is the darling of people who hate fossil fuels. 

Your grasping at straws to prove your guess.

[Anonymous]

That is an amazing development.  I wonder if it could have been terrorism. 

[Anonymous]

n012944

Bucyrus

n012944

Bucyrus

I would say that this Quebec derailment is exactly the pivotal event that I was predicting.  It is amazing that it only took two days to materialize.

I would say you are trying too hard to predict doom.  Ethanol trains have derailed with some explosive results, and yet ethanol trains still roll along.  

So, why will there be such an outcry about oil trains, but not ethanol?

It is because ethanol is considered to be carbon neutral and petroleum is not. Ethanol is the darling of people who hate fossil fuels. 

Your grasping at straws to prove your guess.

Well my prediction was not that an oil train would derail.  Of course one will eventually derail.  But what I am predicting is the public reaction after the derailment on the part of those who are opposed to importing Canadian oil into the U.S.  Those opponents are just now catching up with the news that rail is doing an end run around the pipeline that they killed.  And they are not amused. 

They are hard at work making the case that rail is even more dangerous than the pipeline.  They deal in symbolism with the aim of influencing public opinion, and they have just been handed the best possible symbol on a silver platter. 

So my prediction is that they will use this wreck to try to throw a monkey wrench into the suddenly booming transport of oil by rail.  They will work the public, and the public will work the regulators.  It will be interesting to hear what our Administration has to say about this.  

This was certainly not a difficult prediction to make, so I don't think I need to "grasp at straws," as you say, in order to defend it.  However, when I predicted a reaction to the first train wreck, I was not expecting one so spectacularly useful to the greens, and so soon.  That part kind of surprises me. 

[blue streak 1]

blue streak 1

 UH OH   The law of unintended consequences might have come to light.   The folowing media posting says that the train was a run away.  According to the following report the MM&A crew had gotten off the train waiting for a relief crew and the train left on its own.

Unintended consequence ?  Requiring a crew that has gone illegal  on haz mat train to leave any train un- attended with the possibility of just this type of incident happening.  

http://news.yahoo.com/train-carrying-petroleum-derails-catches-fire-canadas-quebec-121417580.html 

This problem needs probably addressed in very detail. in a separate thread.

To add fuel  ( Pun not intended ) to the fire of controversy unoffical comments on other threads say that this was a one man operation with an RCO pack ???  I hope that this is not the case.

 

[Anonymous]

Since the train derailed within the consist, I assume the head end stopped and is still on the rails.  I sure hope the police immediately secured the locomotives against anyone entering them, and possibly destroying evidence. 

[zugmann]

Bucyrus

Since the train derailed within the consist, I assume the head end stopped and is still on the rails.  I sure hope the police immediately secured the locomotives against anyone entering them, and possibly destroying evidence. 

And what evidence would that be...?

[Anonymous]

zugmann

Bucyrus

Since the train derailed within the consist, I assume the head end stopped and is still on the rails.  I sure hope the police immediately secured the locomotives against anyone entering them, and possibly destroying evidence. 

And what evidence would that be...?

Any evidence that anyone was in there besides the crew; fingerprints, position of controls, event recorders--anything out of the ordinary. 

[jclass]

Railroads need to figure out how to operate fail-safe.

[edblysard]

Pure speculation on my part, but….having seen and been near a natural gas pipeline explosion, and the fact it looks like a lot more than crude is burning in the video, are there any above ground or close to surface gas pipelines, maybe even a meter regulator on a nearby building that got tagged?

 

Unattended?

On my carrier, all a locomotive engineer has to have is physical contact with the locomotive for the train to be considered attended.

Of course, we just sit in the locomotive until the relief crew shows up, and here, the engineer is the last guy off, after a brief conversation on how the train handles with the relief engineer.

While not a rules violation for us, it is frowned upon to have no one in the cab until relieved.

Was this crew actually in a crew van or cab and left the train standing with no one there, or were they standing around near the train waiting?

Either way, they are fired for certain!

Doubt this is a death knell for oil by rail, ammonia nitrate still rides the rails, and does benzene, which makes a crude oil fire look like a birthday candle next to a shuttle launch!

Without all the details, all we are doing is guessing anyway, for all we know a couple of kids unlatched a switch in front of the train for kicks…remember the Amtrak wreck where a couple of dips broke the lock, and just raised the switch handle out of the latch,?

First locomotive made it across, second one picked the switch, no real reason for their actions except they thought it would be cool to watch, (which they did

[BroadwayLion]

Well, I do know for a fact that trains are left unattended out in the middle of nowhere.

One crew was overcome by fumes and Ft. Worth told them to shut down and called the ambulance.

That is, of course, where I entered the picture. And where I entered the locomotive looking for the crew, which I found on the grass on the other side of the train. The Engines had already been shut down, and the conductor was, fumes or no fumes, just returning from setting 25 hand brakes. I guess they were all up front, eh? but that should keep them from rolling. I do not know how long it took BNSF to get a crew out there.

Trip reports really upset the insurance people. What with naming the siding as the town, where of course no town exists, and since I was transporting two patients, I split the mialge between them instead of charging each one of them for a full trip. And THEN the insurance company has the gall to try to talk me down in price, when we are already the second lowest billing service in the state. (The only service that bills lower is the Medora Ambulance which is 100% funded by oil revenues and does not charge any customer anything.

ROAR

[Anonymous]

Quote from the most recent news article I could find:

"The rail company that operated the train -- the Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway -- said that shortly before midnight Friday, the train's conductor parked it and locked its brakes before checking into a hotel for the night."

[jeffhergert]

Bucyrus

n012944

Bucyrus

I would say that this Quebec derailment is exactly the pivotal event that I was predicting.  It is amazing that it only took two days to materialize.

I would say you are trying too hard to predict doom.  Ethanol trains have derailed with some explosive results, and yet ethanol trains still roll along.  

So, why will there be such an outcry about oil trains, but not ethanol?

It is because ethanol is considered to be carbon neutral and petroleum is not. Ethanol is the darling of people who hate fossil fuels. 

The environmentalists hate ethanol almost as much as the oil people.  Why?  My gut feeling is that the reason is because even with it's faults it is a viable, if only partial, alternative to oil.  It's use means people won't have to change their lifestyles and that drives the extreme type nuts.  

Jeff