Ulrich According to the CBC news last night, the people actually want the railway, even now. There is some heavy industry there and the MM&A does offer I direct connection to Central Canada and the US. I take Burkhardt's statements with some consideration. He made them at what was probably the worst moment in his life. How would you and I react under similar circumstances? I don't know. It is easy to say we'd make all the right moves..
According to the CBC news last night, the people actually want the railway, even now. There is some heavy industry there and the MM&A does offer I direct connection to Central Canada and the US.
I take Burkhardt's statements with some consideration. He made them at what was probably the worst moment in his life. How would you and I react under similar circumstances? I don't know. It is easy to say we'd make all the right moves..
Yes, the town is torn between getting rid of the railroad and saving it for their own prosperity. Regarding Burkhardt, I would not forgive his comments because of the stress of the disaster. Such a disaster brings out the true character.
blue streak 1The location of the accident may have very few 7000 - 8000 gallon tanker trailers available or even small trucks. Many of the trucks and trailers in that area may have other commitments. + also may not be suitable to carry this product ?. Specialized pumps may also be needed ? Then where will the oil be taken ? It may be the closest location to take this oil is what was its final destination ?
I think you have hit the nail on the head on all points.
The land based oil business in Canada is almost entirely based in the western provinces with some still in Ontario. There is off-shore oil production off of Canada's east coast, but I suspect things like pumping equipment is probably adapted to that specific use. And the irony is, the remaining oil is very likely going to be transported to the Irving Oil Refinery in the end. There are refineries in Montreal, but they may only be set up to receive water borne crude.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
I have to ask a question. I have been driven to it. Did Ed Burkhardt ever serve in the USA Afrmed Forces? When I realize that I can claim that my own reaction in such a disaster would HOPEFULLY to keep my mouth shut about blame and causes (if I were in Ed Burkhardt's position) and keep saying that I wished to be as helpful to the community in restoration as possible ---this is definitely the result of my period in the US Army and the lessons that service taught me.
I don't know the answer to that question. Probably he did not serve, given the timing. However, he is 74, graduated from Yale in 1960, getting a B.S. with honors in Industrial Administration and then some graduate work in Rail Transportation at Yale. He started his lifelong rail career with the Wabash Railroad. he was once regarded as a darling of the rail industry, being honored by Railway Age in 1999 and also getting pushed out of WC.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Unless you're in the situation its probably hard to predict how one would react. Some years ago when I was living by myself in an apartment there was a fire. It was late at night. I was awakened by people screaming and shouting FIRE!!!. Ironically, my apartment number was 911...ninth floor. I opened my door to see people running in all directions. I walked to the nearest stairwell and opened the door. A huge black plume of smoke came out and (to my surprise) I laughed, and said "I guess we're not going down there". There was general panic on my floor and throughout the building. With the elevator out and the stairwell impassable I figured the heck with it and just went back to my apartment . I figured the building was made mostly of concrete anyway so it wasn't going to come down around my ears like a wood building would. The damage was extensive but I survived without going into panic mode.. learned something important about myself that night..
narig01One other comment / question. In several news reports it was stated the locomotive engineer moved the undamaged front end of the train after the wreck to get it away from the fire. Did he have to release the brakes? Certainly after moving he tied the train back down.Rgds IGN
He moved the hind end cars back. All of the head end cars derailed. There would not have been any hand brakes on the hind end cars. There might or might not have been air brakes applied to those hind end cars, depending on how the train got released at the top of the hill.
Today CP and CN are both in CYA Mode running notch 8. Story and video are both very Interesting.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/business/cp-rail-cn-reviewing-safety-procedures-after-derailment-in-lac-megantic-1.1372546
I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier, but I finally checked the Maclean's Magazine website. At one time Maclean's was a worthy competitor of Time Magazine Canada Edition, but it has fallen off in recent years. It does however have a following in some opinion making groups, as opposed to the great unwashed majority, so what is said there could have a lot of influence later on. As in new and better(?) government regulations.
I will post the link to its' latest story, but serious followers of the Lac-Mégantic situation might want to keep checking in.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/07/17/unsafe-at-any-speed/
Probably very prudent moves on the part of CN and CP. No doubt they looked at what happened in Lac Megantic and said there by the grace of god go I.
One item I do not understand. ---- There have been reports that the engineer moved the rear of the train out of the wreck scene. If so the only way I could understand that is ----------
1. by him taking the west bound parked train locos,
2. Go west in the siding
3. throw switch (unless a spring switch
4. stop on main; reverse the switch
5. Proceed down grade to hook up to rear cars
6. bunch any slack
7. Dismount and go to closest car to fire he dared
8. Pull cut lever
9 Back train out.
sounds like a lot of items to have been accomplished
Another report is that the clean up company is refusing to disclose how much oil has been recovered at various locations due to a confidentially clause with MM&A. Now that sucks !!!!!
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/07/17/size_of_lac_megantic_oil_spill_remains_a_company_secret.html
blue streak 1 ... Another report is that the clean up company is refusing to disclose how much oil has been recovered at various locations due to a confidentially clause with MM&A. Now that sucks !!!!! http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/07/17/size_of_lac_megantic_oil_spill_remains_a_company_secret.html
...
On oil spills I've been involved with, the company, the contractors and the EPA or other regulators all knew what was going on. They might designate a spokesman to talk to the media, but everything was transparent to the authorities, and would eventually become public record. Instead it sounds like MM&A follows a pattern of disregard of a need for public accountability.
blue streak 1There have been reports that the engineer moved the rear of the train out of the wreck scene. If so the only way I could understand that is ----------
The engines were on the point of the east bound train. It led the tank cars down the hill. When the tank cars behind the engine derailed, the engines broke loose and continued a further 1 km. down the track.
The engineer who was woken up by the explosions while sleeping in his hotel in Lac-Mégantic ran out and found a tractor or backhoe and somehow managed to pull the rear few cars back west from the fire to the point where the pictures show the flashing FRED.
There has been talk earlier on the thread about the engineer managed to hook up to the cars, but at this point I don't recall ever reading an actual confirmation of how he did. it.
AgentKid There has been talk earlier on the thread about the engineer managed to hook up to the cars, but at this point I don't recall ever reading an actual confirmation of how he did. it.
I read somewhere that he got hold of a trackmobile. These are machines used by mid-sized industries to move cars around a plant site. They are less expensive than switch engines.
All of us who are interested in this story should go to the Railway Age website and look under "latest news" for the article called "When Bad Things Happen to Good Companies and Good people" I apologize for not knowing how to make up a link. I am not as computer literate as I need to be. Anyway, it's the best article I've read to date. I highly recommend it.
George
overall All of us who are interested in this story should go to the Railway Age website and look under "latest news" for the article called "When Bad Things Happen to Good Companies and Good people"
All of us who are interested in this story should go to the Railway Age website and look under "latest news" for the article called "When Bad Things Happen to Good Companies and Good people"
Here it is.
Overmod overall All of us who are interested in this story should go to the Railway Age website and look under "latest news" for the article called "When Bad Things Happen to Good Companies and Good people" Here it is.
Thanks for posting that.
The article is a very concise analysis of what M,M,&A's management (primarily in the person of Ed Burkhardt) did wrong, with concrete examples of how similiar incidents have been handled.
I urge all of our forum members who have taken an interest in this discussion thread to read it..
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
National Public Radio is reporting that the cause of the runaway was, in fact, not enough brake force applied to the train. That is according to the Canadian Government investigators.This came over the air at about 12:15 pm today.
overall National Public Radio is reporting that the cause of the runaway was, in fact, not enough brake force applied to the train. That is according to the Canadian Government investigators.This came over the air at about 12:15 pm today.
Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see.
Norm
Train got away because of insufficient brake force. No kidding.
That statement almost goes without saying. The unresolved question is why there was not enough brake force applied to the train.
It could have been that the brakes leaked off, or that there were not enough hand brakes applied, or that somebody released air brakes or hand brakes.
Bucyrus The unresolved question is why there was not enough brake force applied to the train. It could have been that the brakes leaked off, or that there were not enough hand brakes applied, or that somebody released air brakes or hand brakes.
The unresolved question is why there was not enough brake force applied to the train.
and as Paul Harvey would say 'that is the rest of the story'!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Norm48327 overall National Public Radio is reporting that the cause of the runaway was, in fact, not enough brake force applied to the train. That is according to the Canadian Government investigators.This came over the air at about 12:15 pm today. Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see.
OMG….they turned a bunch of rocket scientist loose at a train wreck!
23 17 46 11
Authorities have set the final death toll at 47. This number was lowered from fifty after finally establishing the exact number of people who had been away, and in fact were still alive. They were on vacation. The number of bodies recovered has now risen to 42, so they now know the number of people they are still searching for.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/death-toll-in-lac-megantic-disaster-now-set-at-47-1.1374099
carnej1 Overmod overall All of us who are interested in this story should go to the Railway Age website and look under "latest news" for the article called "When Bad Things Happen to Good Companies and Good people" Here it is. Thanks for posting that. The article is a very concise analysis of what M,M,&A's management (primarily in the person of Ed Burkhardt) did wrong, with concrete examples of how similiar incidents have been handled. I urge all of our forum members who have taken an interest in this discussion thread to read it..
It is a good article, but there are many other articles online that detail the response of Burkhardt. The one thing that all the quotes of him have in common is that he appears to be taking blame off of himself and placing it on somebody else. For instance, he says he hopes the anger and hatred of the people of Lac-Megantic will dissipate. He could have said that he prays for the people of Lac-Megantic , and hopes they will heal from the disaster. But no; he hopes they will stop hating. So the problem with all those grieving people is that they hate. And since he feels that they hate him, they should stop.
He says this: "If I was in their shoes, I would be quite angry. I understand, but what more can I say? I hope that anger will dissipate and people will sit down and try to work out constructive measures."
What more can he say? After asking that question defensively, he says, in effect, that the people are wrong in being angry, and they should correct that by becoming constructive. Every time he opens his mouth, there is a condescending tone and defensive resentment because he feels that people are unfairly putting him on the spot.
He blames the sour response of the people of the Lac-Megantic to his first appearance on his translator not being very competent with the French language. He wishes he could speak in fluent French because it is a beautiful language, as though that would please the people of the incinerated town. How condescending.
He tells the victims of the catastrophe that MM&A management and the employees are also victims of the disaster.
http://www.torontosun.com/2013/07/18/ceo-ed-burkhardt-hopes-lac-megantic-anger-will-one-day-dissipate
No surprise and there will many more to follow:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-quebec-train-lawsuit-20130723,0,1645398.story
Feds Issue Emergency Directives.
Short version: 2 man crews on trains carrying dangerous goods, no unattended locos on main tracks.
Story here:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/feds-issue-emergency-rail-directives-as-mps-nix-train-safety-study-1.1379290
IMHO 2 man crews is what is going to break the MN&A's back in the long term (assuming the courts don't stick them with a bill they can never hope to pay) and likely jeopardize the sale of the west end of the former "Short Line" to any other operator. The line can't make money hauling oil, and there isn't enough other business without it.
Here is the link to the Transport Canada press release outlining the new rules, which also contains a link to the emergency directive:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/mediaroom/releases-2013-h096e-7291.html
There is also this development from the TSB of Canada in the wake of the crash:
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/07/19/lac-megantic-railway-safety_n_3623687.html
Quote from the link:
In its other letter, the safety board urged a revision of the Canadian Rail Operating Rule No. 112 governing the securement of parked trains.
It said Rule 112 is not specific enough because it does not spell out how many handbrakes to apply for various weights and types of cargo. It also says that the standard, so-called "push-pull test" does not always accurately show whether the brakes have been adequately applied.
From an earlier report, they said this about Rule 112:
But in a 2011 report into a runaway train incident near Sept-Îles, the TSB noted that “it is impossible to verify hand-brake effectiveness by pulling or pushing cars on high grades (so) locomotive engineers cannot accurately know that management’s expectations have been met every time cars are secured.”
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