There was an AP item in this morning's Salt Lake Tribune, which I found to better written than most other such reports:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/world/56365832-68/train-cars-rail-bridge.html.csp
This is the first time that I had seen anything about a "cargo train."
Johnny
The report about the UP train ‘clipping’ the BNSF near its rear gives me the impression that the UP crew simply fell asleep … after all, the collision occurred at 2:30 A.M.
It was good to hear that forum contributor wlilly lives somewhat nearby, so we might soon finally be able to get a knowledgeable onsite assessment of the situation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
I live about 12 miles from Rockview, and my grown son I and railfan that location at least once or twice a week. We eat supper at a wide spot in the road next to BNSF's detector at MP141, and we have been doing this long enough that the BNSF crews (and the UP crews for that matter) recognize us. So maybe I can provide a little insight. BNSF runs about 15 or so trains a day, UP upwards of 50. The UP through here is a highly maintained and a fast road. The BNSF trains trundle in comparison.
The diamonds here are controlled by the UP. Both NB and SB BNSF crews have to contact their dispatcher who must put in a request with the UP dispatcher to get a signal indication through the interlocker. The interlocking is signaled red in all directions for both railroads unless the UP dispatcher sets up the signals for a train. It is clear that UP has the priority; many evenings we've seen the BNSF's 415 local go dead on the law just north of the interlocking plant (which is for all practical purposes, directly under the highway M overpass). This is not 5 minutes by train to the Chaffee crew change point.
Given how the plant operates it is certainly a puzzle as to how this collision could have happened, short of signal failure or crew failure. It will be interesting to see how it works out.
No traffic is moving on either railroad right now. BNSF just swapped locomotives to the rear of a southbounder that was stopped at Freeze since the incident. I assume they are going to pull it back to St. Louis.
The road bridge was built about 30 years ago to bypass grade crossing of both the BNSF and UP (then Cotton Belt). I doubt that much thought was given to hardening the structure (this is Missouri, after all).
By the way this is the third incident in just a few months at this location. An off-season tornado blew a UP double stack over, with cars scattered on both sides of the highway overpass - and under it - about 6 months ago. About 6 weeks ago when the Mississippi flooding closed BNSF's River Line, a detouring Nb train went on the ground as it was negotiating the connecting track to the UP and overturned about 4 cars blocking both lines.
We are headed down that way this evening to see what we can see. Not sure how close we can get, but I know every back way into that location.
Walt
The scene is at a diamond, a crossing of two rail lines. Therefore it has to be guarded on both lines and in all directions by some kind of signal device and procedure in the rules or timetables. More than likely, some one violated the rules for some reason or another because seemingly signals rarely malfunction, even on nonsignaled track it would be a permanent or fixed signal and interlocked with approach signals at proper distances. One of the report said the UP train clipped the BNSF train near the rear of the train. So it would first appear that the UP train missed a signal or couldn't stop for some reason. The comment about it being two non passenger tracks and PTC would not be required is probably true, but if it were in effect at such locations, the train that should have stopped would have; it would be a good application of a safety device. I think you can tell what my conjecture would be reading all the signs and reports so far and that many of you see the same answers I do. But it is still too early to jump to those conclusions.
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I have noticed that when railroad collisions happen, it is usually not due to signal failure. And there is an unusually speedy confirmation that the signals worked properly. Often such confirmation is announced within 48 hours or so. The rest of the details can take years.
henry6 schlimm what did happen that is so radically different from what was reported? That is a good question, schlimm, one that should be asked about any media report that contains as much as one flaw. If you know one thing is wrong, out of place, impossible, ridiculous, or otherwise questionable, then how about the rest of the story? In this story, I like the image of "T-bone" but not the explanation of what that means in relation to what happened for instance. Journalists have to know more about what they are writing in order to become both knowledgeable and credible. They don't have the time, aren't given the time, to study or ask questions, or don't know what questions to ask, in order to be credible. we all complain here about how little the public knows about trains and railroads and how the media always screws things up. This is why.
schlimm what did happen that is so radically different from what was reported?
what did happen that is so radically different from what was reported?
That is a good question, schlimm, one that should be asked about any media report that contains as much as one flaw. If you know one thing is wrong, out of place, impossible, ridiculous, or otherwise questionable, then how about the rest of the story? In this story, I like the image of "T-bone" but not the explanation of what that means in relation to what happened for instance. Journalists have to know more about what they are writing in order to become both knowledgeable and credible. They don't have the time, aren't given the time, to study or ask questions, or don't know what questions to ask, in order to be credible. we all complain here about how little the public knows about trains and railroads and how the media always screws things up. This is why.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Apparently, or so the LION has been told, the railroad is not covered under workman's comp, and under railroad law, they have to sue to recover for injuries. So yes, bring on the lawyers. Sounds dumb to me, they should just present their bills to the railroad and the railroad should pay them, and everybody can save a fortune on leachers.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
ccltrainsThe lawyers are probably foaming at the mouth to file suits on Tuesday after the holidqy.
If the NTSB blames this on the crew being asleep due to working irregular shifts beforehand, it seems to me that that exonerates the crew from blame for sleeping. How much of an effect does this blame shift have on the outcome of lawsuits?
It will be interesting to see the final report on this incident. It probably will be one of three causes:
Signal malfunction
Dispatcher error
Engineer error
The lawyers are probably foaming at the mouth to file suits on Tuesday after the holidqy.
The River Line is one I'm very familiar with, going back to 1963. The Frisco maintained it quite well and I remember the upper quadrant semaphores regulating traffic.
If I'm not mistaken, I believe Trains had an article on this particular crossing sometime within the last few years.They listed it as a Hot Spot. UP was the former SSW and they crossed the Mississippi on the Thebes bridge and went into E. St. Louis on the east side of the river. Frisco followed the west side. Going back 50 years, I don't remember any other collisions at this location.
The TV was not too bad, although I cringe at the use of "T-bone" to describe a collision. When I was investigating wrecks of all kinds, we called this a broadside impact. IMO this is more descriptive.
IshmaelA spokesman for the NTSB was interviewed on TV and said they were going to check the work records of all crewmen for the previous 72 hours. He's thinking crew fatigue perhaps?
Well, the *do* look at *everything* and then rule them out one by one. So crew will be examined. LION puts crew way up at number 1 as the issue at point. Either train crew or tower crew, but since the interlocking machine (assuming there *is* an interlocking machine0 cannot give out two green signals at once.
MOW eats Bridgeport, Crew eats this one.
Why attack the media? Did two trains collide or not? Or is criticizing the media a diversion from this accident? Perhaps you'd prefer the story were spiked? Since there is so much outrage at the accuracy of media, what did happen that is so radically different from what was reported?
?
The media...especially in smaller markets...hires as cheaply as possible. It also does not want to spend any more than necessary to keep a broadcast station on the air or printing a paper so that more money can be taken to the corporate headquarters. Therefore, neophytes are hired, often with no education in journalism, often right out of high school. So, many working for the media do not have the curiosity or intelligence to learn anything for their stories. By lines on paper and look good on TV is what they are worried about...and the media owners don't care. Owners hire readers for broadcasting and typists for papers and don't give them time to hunt down stories. They aren't learned when they are hired and not given the time nor incentive to learn when working. Promises of glory and glamour are the basis for taking the jobs. Not all, mind you, just enough to make a poor presentation.
ccltrains Agree that the regular news outlets do not know anything about railroads. Their total knowledge probably is based on a Lionel train around the Christmas tree. Fortunately we has blogs like this where people with knowledge post so the true facts are known. In my prior life before retiring I worked in the upstream (drilling/production) oil and gas and what is reported in the media and depicted in movies usually is far removed from the real world. I no longer watch movies based on oil and gas. The media needs to get some knowledgable people on their staff.
Agree that the regular news outlets do not know anything about railroads. Their total knowledge probably is based on a Lionel train around the Christmas tree. Fortunately we has blogs like this where people with knowledge post so the true facts are known. In my prior life before retiring I worked in the upstream (drilling/production) oil and gas and what is reported in the media and depicted in movies usually is far removed from the real world. I no longer watch movies based on oil and gas. The media needs to get some knowledgable people on their staff.
Doubt that that will happen any time soon.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
ccltrains Agree that the regular news outlets do not know anything about railroads. Their total knowledge probably is based on a Lionel train around the Christmas tree. Fortunately we has blogs like this where people with knowledge post so the true facts are known. In my prior life before retiring I worked in the upstream (drilling/production) oil and gas and what is reported in the media and depicted in movies usually is far removed from the real world. I no longer watch movies based on oil and gas. The media needs to get some knowledable people on their staff.
Agree that the regular news outlets do not know anything about railroads. Their total knowledge probably is based on a Lionel train around the Christmas tree. Fortunately we has blogs like this where people with knowledge post so the true facts are known. In my prior life before retiring I worked in the upstream (drilling/production) oil and gas and what is reported in the media and depicted in movies usually is far removed from the real world. I no longer watch movies based on oil and gas. The media needs to get some knowledable people on their staff.
Unfortunately, sites like this also have their fair share of people that don't know anything about the industry acting like they do.
Why many of the actualy people in the know have moved on...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
PTC-eligible or not, pretty clearly a case of the current signaling/traffic control system failure. If not, then operator failure. Can't blame this one on an auto, a truck, or the media.
Paul_D_North_Jr Apparently happened at an at-grade crossing of BNSF and UP - several news report say that one train "T-boned" the other. It also happened right under an overpass of County Highway M, which then collapsed - near Chaffee, Missouri, at these Lat./ Long. coordinates: N 37 12' 17" W 89 38' 24" - Paul North.
Apparently happened at an at-grade crossing of BNSF and UP - several news report say that one train "T-boned" the other. It also happened right under an overpass of County Highway M, which then collapsed - near Chaffee, Missouri, at these Lat./ Long. coordinates:
N 37 12' 17" W 89 38' 24"
- Paul North.
Pull back from those coords on Google Earth and you will see a train of auto racks approaching the diamond from the west. Eerie! (Nobody on the other track, though.)
Ishmael A spokesman for the NTSB was interviewed on TV and said they were going to check the work records of all crewmen for the previous 72 hours. He's thinking crew fatigue perhaps?
A spokesman for the NTSB was interviewed on TV and said they were going to check the work records of all crewmen for the previous 72 hours. He's thinking crew fatigue perhaps?
Standard procedure in every NTSB investigation for many years. Always a part of the report at the end.
PDN and I will be looking to see if the bridge bents/ support piling had crash rails or not. Crash rails are big concrete collars poured around the bridge supports for additional protection. Big controversy between the AREMA and the AASHTO/ASCE highway bubbas over this recently.
The ex-Frisco River Sub is no slouch for traffic in this area as well. Plenty of chemical coast traffic on both.
EDIT: It would appear from the CNN video that this bridge is relatively new and had NO crash/rail barricades at the site. The pig feathers will certainly fly on this one.
richg1998 View from on top. http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/25/us/missouri-train-collision/index.html Rich
View from on top.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/25/us/missouri-train-collision/index.html
Rich
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
This is an important line for UP--although it doesn't handle the Amtrak trains (they go on the ex-MP), it's probably the busiest UP freight route from Missouri to Texas. And, in terms of rail freight, the word "Texas" is practically a synonym for "hazmat".
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
zardoz If you click on the image provided by Southwest Chief, it will take you to the local news site which has a collection of photos of the wreck. Another case for PTC?
If you click on the image provided by Southwest Chief, it will take you to the local news site which has a collection of photos of the wreck.
Another case for PTC?
Maybe - but, do either of the routes handle passengers and/or HAZMAT's? If not, then the lines would not be subject to PTC.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
I will bet that is what he is thinking. If only they had inward facing cameras, they could be certain.
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