Apparently happened at an at-grade crossing of BNSF and UP - several news report say that one train "T-boned" the other. It also happened right under an overpass of County Highway M, which then collapsed - near Chaffee, Missouri, at these Lat./ Long. coordinates:
N 37 12' 17" W 89 38' 24"
- Paul North.
Here's what the location looks like:
Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, COClick Here for my model train photo website
I see someone put a Google Earth pic up, thanks, Big thanks for the coordinates. I put in Chaffee, MO and followed to the coordinates you posted.
This is an example of why when something like an accident or derailment happens I usually find out on a Mainstream website (nbcnews.com this time) and then come here. Often someone here is more informed. Then I can get a later detailed story from Trains News Wire. Then if it's really significant (like the Chatsworth wreck) in a future Trains issue.
There is a great amount of quality people with very wide ranging knowledge here. IMO one of the best forums anywhere on the net.
I haven't heard of any fatalities thank god. Hopefully it turns out that just a bunch of stuff got banged up and no humans were sacrificed.
Randy
Randy Stahl I haven't heard of any fatalities thank god. Hopefully it turns out that just a bunch of stuff got banged up and no humans were sacrificed. Randy
MSNBC reported 2 train crew, several motorists injured, no fatalities.
What's really different about the coverage here versus the, "Mainstream," is the intelligence and relevance of the commentary. Over there, starting with the first posted comment, all the partizani, anti-terrorists, conspiracy theorists and just plain ignorant came out to play. I had to go half way down the page (and past two, "How can a train T-bone a train?" comments) before somebody admitted that they'd looked at a map and found the location in the photo above. I already had it in another window...
Chuck
Very evident that one train had the signal for the crossing and one did not - the big question becomes - which one?? Which will be answered by dispatcher(s) and/or data that the crossing itself captures. Then the question becomes Why?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
All:
I find it a bit strange, but when an airlines goes down, a former pilot will give a detailed account of the cidrcumstances, but when a train derails the news media is stupid.
Several years ago, a Twin Cities TV station was broadcasting just outside the new Minnesota Twins baseball park in Minneapolis. The young thing doing the report called the BNSF's Minneapolis to Willmar main line, a "spur line"!
Most reporters or ignorant with a capital "I".
Ed Burns
NP-BN-BNSF Retiree from Minneapolis
Part of the overpass came down, and a few automobiles went down with it. Luckily no one was seriously injured. Seven people went to the hospital in nearby Cape Girardeau but all were released. Two were train crewmen, conductors according to the TV folks. It's quite a mess, but rail traffic has been going past my house all day so they must have cleared it up. (I live on the River Line at MP 11 and Chaffee is the next division point south)
A spokesman for the NTSB was interviewed on TV and said they were going to check the work records of all crewmen for the previous 72 hours. He's thinking crew fatigue perhaps?
IshmaelA spokesman for the NTSB was interviewed on TV and said they were going to check the work records of all crewmen for the previous 72 hours. He's thinking crew fatigue perhaps?
I will bet that is what he is thinking. If only they had inward facing cameras, they could be certain.
View from on top.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/25/us/missouri-train-collision/index.html
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
If you click on the image provided by Southwest Chief, it will take you to the local news site which has a collection of photos of the wreck.
Another case for PTC?
zardoz If you click on the image provided by Southwest Chief, it will take you to the local news site which has a collection of photos of the wreck. Another case for PTC?
Maybe - but, do either of the routes handle passengers and/or HAZMAT's? If not, then the lines would not be subject to PTC.
This is an important line for UP--although it doesn't handle the Amtrak trains (they go on the ex-MP), it's probably the busiest UP freight route from Missouri to Texas. And, in terms of rail freight, the word "Texas" is practically a synonym for "hazmat".
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
richg1998 View from on top. http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/25/us/missouri-train-collision/index.html Rich
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
PDN and I will be looking to see if the bridge bents/ support piling had crash rails or not. Crash rails are big concrete collars poured around the bridge supports for additional protection. Big controversy between the AREMA and the AASHTO/ASCE highway bubbas over this recently.
The ex-Frisco River Sub is no slouch for traffic in this area as well. Plenty of chemical coast traffic on both.
EDIT: It would appear from the CNN video that this bridge is relatively new and had NO crash/rail barricades at the site. The pig feathers will certainly fly on this one.
Ishmael A spokesman for the NTSB was interviewed on TV and said they were going to check the work records of all crewmen for the previous 72 hours. He's thinking crew fatigue perhaps?
Standard procedure in every NTSB investigation for many years. Always a part of the report at the end.
Paul_D_North_Jr Apparently happened at an at-grade crossing of BNSF and UP - several news report say that one train "T-boned" the other. It also happened right under an overpass of County Highway M, which then collapsed - near Chaffee, Missouri, at these Lat./ Long. coordinates: N 37 12' 17" W 89 38' 24" - Paul North.
Pull back from those coords on Google Earth and you will see a train of auto racks approaching the diamond from the west. Eerie! (Nobody on the other track, though.)
PTC-eligible or not, pretty clearly a case of the current signaling/traffic control system failure. If not, then operator failure. Can't blame this one on an auto, a truck, or the media.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Agree that the regular news outlets do not know anything about railroads. Their total knowledge probably is based on a Lionel train around the Christmas tree. Fortunately we has blogs like this where people with knowledge post so the true facts are known. In my prior life before retiring I worked in the upstream (drilling/production) oil and gas and what is reported in the media and depicted in movies usually is far removed from the real world. I no longer watch movies based on oil and gas. The media needs to get some knowledable people on their staff.
ccltrains Agree that the regular news outlets do not know anything about railroads. Their total knowledge probably is based on a Lionel train around the Christmas tree. Fortunately we has blogs like this where people with knowledge post so the true facts are known. In my prior life before retiring I worked in the upstream (drilling/production) oil and gas and what is reported in the media and depicted in movies usually is far removed from the real world. I no longer watch movies based on oil and gas. The media needs to get some knowledable people on their staff.
Unfortunately, sites like this also have their fair share of people that don't know anything about the industry acting like they do.
Why many of the actualy people in the know have moved on...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
ccltrains Agree that the regular news outlets do not know anything about railroads. Their total knowledge probably is based on a Lionel train around the Christmas tree. Fortunately we has blogs like this where people with knowledge post so the true facts are known. In my prior life before retiring I worked in the upstream (drilling/production) oil and gas and what is reported in the media and depicted in movies usually is far removed from the real world. I no longer watch movies based on oil and gas. The media needs to get some knowledgable people on their staff.
Agree that the regular news outlets do not know anything about railroads. Their total knowledge probably is based on a Lionel train around the Christmas tree. Fortunately we has blogs like this where people with knowledge post so the true facts are known. In my prior life before retiring I worked in the upstream (drilling/production) oil and gas and what is reported in the media and depicted in movies usually is far removed from the real world. I no longer watch movies based on oil and gas. The media needs to get some knowledgable people on their staff.
Doubt that that will happen any time soon.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
The media...especially in smaller markets...hires as cheaply as possible. It also does not want to spend any more than necessary to keep a broadcast station on the air or printing a paper so that more money can be taken to the corporate headquarters. Therefore, neophytes are hired, often with no education in journalism, often right out of high school. So, many working for the media do not have the curiosity or intelligence to learn anything for their stories. By lines on paper and look good on TV is what they are worried about...and the media owners don't care. Owners hire readers for broadcasting and typists for papers and don't give them time to hunt down stories. They aren't learned when they are hired and not given the time nor incentive to learn when working. Promises of glory and glamour are the basis for taking the jobs. Not all, mind you, just enough to make a poor presentation.
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Why attack the media? Did two trains collide or not? Or is criticizing the media a diversion from this accident? Perhaps you'd prefer the story were spiked? Since there is so much outrage at the accuracy of media, what did happen that is so radically different from what was reported?
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schlimm what did happen that is so radically different from what was reported?
what did happen that is so radically different from what was reported?
That is a good question, schlimm, one that should be asked about any media report that contains as much as one flaw. If you know one thing is wrong, out of place, impossible, ridiculous, or otherwise questionable, then how about the rest of the story? In this story, I like the image of "T-bone" but not the explanation of what that means in relation to what happened for instance. Journalists have to know more about what they are writing in order to become both knowledgeable and credible. They don't have the time, aren't given the time, to study or ask questions, or don't know what questions to ask, in order to be credible. we all complain here about how little the public knows about trains and railroads and how the media always screws things up. This is why.
Well, the *do* look at *everything* and then rule them out one by one. So crew will be examined. LION puts crew way up at number 1 as the issue at point. Either train crew or tower crew, but since the interlocking machine (assuming there *is* an interlocking machine0 cannot give out two green signals at once.
MOW eats Bridgeport, Crew eats this one.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
The River Line is one I'm very familiar with, going back to 1963. The Frisco maintained it quite well and I remember the upper quadrant semaphores regulating traffic.
If I'm not mistaken, I believe Trains had an article on this particular crossing sometime within the last few years.They listed it as a Hot Spot. UP was the former SSW and they crossed the Mississippi on the Thebes bridge and went into E. St. Louis on the east side of the river. Frisco followed the west side. Going back 50 years, I don't remember any other collisions at this location.
The TV was not too bad, although I cringe at the use of "T-bone" to describe a collision. When I was investigating wrecks of all kinds, we called this a broadside impact. IMO this is more descriptive.
It will be interesting to see the final report on this incident. It probably will be one of three causes:
Signal malfunction
Dispatcher error
Engineer error
The lawyers are probably foaming at the mouth to file suits on Tuesday after the holidqy.
ccltrainsThe lawyers are probably foaming at the mouth to file suits on Tuesday after the holidqy.
If the NTSB blames this on the crew being asleep due to working irregular shifts beforehand, it seems to me that that exonerates the crew from blame for sleeping. How much of an effect does this blame shift have on the outcome of lawsuits?
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