BaltACDFrom the lead picture in the article - It appears that the Roadmaster did not have the old diamond hidden in the weeds.
From the looks of that picture, even the weeds aren't hidden in the weeds!
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Paul_D_North_JrIf it were up to me, I wouldn't even go to the expense or complexity of using multiple individual columns in such an instance. Instead, I'd just pour a single massive wall with a simple rectangular form, and call it "Done !".
BTW do the MoDOT engineers design nearby bridges to accomodate a shaking from that nearby New Madrid fault zone?
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
So, according to Willy, the UP DS controls the diamond and makes the BNSF trains wait for the UP trains to go by. That makes me wonder how often the UP trains have to hold for a crossing BNSF freight? Plus, with the diamond directly under the bridge and it being night, the visibilty at that location could be poor.
Just a guess from what I've read. I'm thinking a tired UP engineer and conductor weren't expecting the red signal or a crossing freight because they usually get the clearance. UP DS thought he / she could get the BNSF freight through but it was moving a bit slower than expected. UP crew ran the red signal, didn't see the BNSF freight on the crossing under the bridge until it was too late and tagged the rear of the crossing train.
CC
Chris,
IF the UP crew ran through a red signal at the crossing due to inattention, they also missed at least an approach signal and perhaps an advance approach. The overhead bridge is irrelevant as long as the crew can see the signal, which I am sure they could.
Mac
According to the signal map I found online there is an advance signal at Quarry, 2 miles east of the diamond.
Norm
We were sent out a safety alert on this incident. I just glanced through it since it doesn't say much. Something that caught my eye was in the list of possible rules violated it mentioned something about restricted speed. I did a little searching.
Currently, the BNSF crossing is considered a Manual interlocking with a release box and M/W key release. I went to fog charts (fogchart.com, look for the Chester subdivision) and notice the Quarry siding begins on one side of the interlocking plant. We have a similar arrangement at Iowa Falls. We cross the CN (former IC/CC&P) and within the interlocking have a controlled switch to Argon siding. The UP dispatcher controls the switch, but not the crossing itself. Even though it's called a manual interlocking, it's to be treated as an automatic interlocking when approaching it under the rules when delayed between the approach/distant signal and the home/absolute signal. Simply put, if your speed drops under 25mph you have to be prepared that the interlocking (even though it says manual) may have timed out and the signal taken away from you.
Pure speculation follows. The UP train had the interlocking when passing the last approach signal. Speed is either severely reduced or they stop between that last signal and the interlocking. (I don't know but assume they can't see the absolute at the interlocking.) They take off thinking they will have the signal. The delay is enough that the interlocking times out and gives a signal to the other route, the BNSF in this case. BNSF starts across after getting the light. UP train realizes, either by seeing a red absolute or the BNSF starting across, that they aren't lined up. Either way they can't stop short.
One report I've read said the UP hit only 8 or so cars behind the engines of the BNSF train, not towards the rear end. That to me, makes the above more plausible. One other scenario although less likely, the UP train did have the signal and the BNSF missed theirs, pulling out right in front of the UP train. Something like that happened in Des Moines a few years ago. A UP train hit the IAIS a couple cars deep. Everyone, including me, thought the UP (KC based crew, you would be surprised at how much "us and them" mentality there is between terminals.) crew screwed up. Turned out they didn't, it actually was the IAIS crew's fault. They didn't stop at the absolute and went out in front of the UP at the last minute.
Jeff
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23 17 46 11
"Pure speculation follows. The UP train had the interlocking when passing the last approach signal. Speed is either severely reduced or they stop between that last signal and the interlocking. (I don't know but assume they can't see the absolute at the interlocking.) They take off thinking they will have the signal. The delay is enough that the interlocking times out and gives a signal to the other route, the BNSF in this case. BNSF starts across after getting the light. UP train realizes, either by seeing a red absolute or the BNSF starting across, that they aren't lined up. Either way they can't stop short. "
I would think they were doing track speed and unable to see the absolute in time to stop because there is just over a mile of tangent track east of the diamond and the lights are narrowly focused.
Weren't there, so don't know for sure. Just thinking it's possible.
Good points Ed. In this day and age we always have to find someone to blame.
Scapegoats please line up here.
There is a photograph of the new diamond in this article.
Mudchicken and Paul North should like this quote:
"We're still working through that process to figure it all out and I don't want to jump to conclusions," he (Mark Shelton, district engineer with the Missouri Department of Transportation) said. "Our way of looking at it is this: Our bridge was there, doing its own thing, then a train hit it and it collapsed. So we're certainly looking at where the responsibility lies and doing what we can to minimize the cost to taxpayers."
James
Hope they look in the mirror first!
So who has the responsibilty to protect the bridge from derailing trains?
Bucyrus So who has the responsibilty to protect the bridge from derailing trains?
Considering the railroad was there first MoDOT should have incorporated the possibility into their plans.
x 2
Considering they also took over from the Public Service Commission in 1985 the regulatory side of things (incompetence + incompetance = still?)....
Go see the earlier comments about this in this thread.
One thing I am pleasantly surprised about it that the crew on the UP train received "only" non-life-threatening injuries. To hit a moving train broadside with another train would seem to cause such wreckage that survival would be unlikely. Those new locomotives must have some serious crash-worthiness built into them (thankfully!!!).
In the photos, is it the BNSF line that's cut and out of service ?
When was (will be) the crossing frog re-installed ?
Concerning what wlilly said …
wlilly The local news reports say that MODOT is going to seek compensation to rebuild the bridge from the "railroad". Estimated cost $3 Million. No mention of MODOT responsibility that the current bridge wasn't hardened against a crash, or that the new one would be.
The local news reports say that MODOT is going to seek compensation to rebuild the bridge from the "railroad". Estimated cost $3 Million. No mention of MODOT responsibility that the current bridge wasn't hardened against a crash, or that the new one would be.
I’ve got a gut feeling that MODOT might eat this one. What railroad executive in their right mind would authorize an easement that made the railroad liable for that easement?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Hope you are correct about the state eating this one. Just remember the state can be the 800 pound gorilla when it wants to. You cannot win an urination contest with a skunk.
NTSB says UP had red signal:
http://www.stltoday.com/news/national/ntsb-train-in-mo-collision-had-signal-to-stop/article_7035d55d-49e7-5790-b391-112180475476.html
I got in late on this. Is this the UP line to TX that uses the ex Katy through Oklahoma?
Northtowne
The new road bridge is up. There is no picture with the article. I wonder if a crash wall was included with the rebuild.
SALfanLet me guess - the highway bubbas put the hwy. bridge back in the same exact spot, so the next time there's a train wreck the hwy bridge gets destroyed again. Smart, very smart (NOT).
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
The Butler The new road bridge is up. There is no picture with the article. I wonder if a crash wall was included with the rebuild.Scott County overpass wrecked by train to open Friday
- Paul North
Paul_D_North_Jr The Butler The new road bridge is up. There is no picture with the article. I wonder if a crash wall was included with the rebuild.Scott County overpass wrecked by train to open Friday There was a far-away photo when I clicked on this link a few minutes ago. The piers appear to be the 'hammerhead' type, with a single very thick stem (also kind of like a mushroom), which could function as a crash wall. - Paul North
I seem to recall that originally the two lines crossed each other on a diamond that was under the bridge. The picture in this article makes it appear that a alternative manner of having the carriers cross each other has been designed and implemented. To wit - the signals and turnout that are pictured.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Picture is looking north on the BNSF, and the turnout is to the east; presumably a small interchange track. I can't see the diamond either, but I presume it's still there.
Google Map Link: http://goo.gl/maps/BaeHa
Looks like the photo was taken from the grade crossing to the south.
I wonder if the Google corp has taken pictures of a derailment and had to go back and reshoot the picture again,,, via sattellite of course.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
All the signals shown in the distance under and just beyond the bridge ("heavy" telephoto effect evident here) are consistent with a crossing frog still being there.
- Paul North.
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