"+1".
The cost of the heavier piers / crash walls in comparatively minimal, and can result in lots of other benefits such as much better earthquake resistance, less vulnerability to settlement/ sinkholes/ undermining, greater capacity for future lane additions/ widenings, heavier trucks generally, overweight special loads (62-ton M1 Abrams military Main Battle Tanks there come to mind), etc.
- Paul North.
schlimm It is almost comical to read this thread, as though the highway was at fault. If the railroads would not have crashes, then others' property would need so much crash protection. Just maybe?
It is almost comical to read this thread, as though the highway was at fault. If the railroads would not have crashes, then others' property would need so much crash protection. Just maybe?
If the highway guys wouldn't have crashes, then we wouldn't have 30,000+ people dying per year... Not to mention a fire that burned up quite a bit of the campground at San Onofre State Beach last Wednesday. Also not to mention dozens of people killed over the last couple of decades from trucks colliding with passenger trains.
AT&SF Surf Line through what is now Camp Pendleton dates to 1887-88. Interstate 5 dates to 1963-66 time frame, so I-5 had to accommodate the AT&SF line, not the other way around.
In a perfect world, derailments wouldn't happen and the RR's would love not having derailments. Since we live in an imperfect world, derailments do happen and it is best to plan for them.
- Erik
And if there weren't highway crashes that then end up down on the railroad it would be a perfect world. Just maybe?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
CalTrans has a history of needing to be repeatedly hit on the head before they act. The 1971 Sylmar quake showed the the bridge columns needed serious redesigning. Their first reaction was to require stronger columns for new construction, then the 1989 Loma Prieta quake showed that the old bridges needed reinforcing, so they started a reinforcing program, and it took the 1994 Northridge quake to get them to get serious about the reinforcement program.
One other bad thing about those two I-5 bridges is that they only leave room for a single track. Other construction going on through Pendleton appears to be adding more double track mileage. OTOH, with the long stretch of single track through San Clemente, a short section of single track a few miles south isn't the end of the world.
Chuck: CA-91 was a complete mess 25 years ago... I don't want to think of what it would be like with I-5 shut down for an extended period.
Or they could build longer steel spans without supports vulnerable to a train hitting it.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
When those bridges were built originally, ATSF wanted crash rails (from Bill Byers on down), Caltrans and CalPUC declined to have that stuff placed because of the additional cost. It's CalPUC's call and I suspect the re-alignment /addition of track thru there after ATSF may have a little to do with armored piers. A retired ATSF/BNSF Structures engineer I know is still actively keeping tabs on bridge failures w/o crash barriers. He uses pictures of the Chaffee incident and the recent CSX incident to prove a point when the inevitable whining starts and when AREMA is challenged over the need for crash walls.
erikem Having the columns taken out from a derailment would be an incredible pain in the backside as it is a choke point for both rail and highway traffic. Methinks CalTrans stated squirming in their shorts when they realized what happened in Missouri could happen here.
Having the columns taken out from a derailment would be an incredible pain in the backside as it is a choke point for both rail and highway traffic. Methinks CalTrans stated squirming in their shorts when they realized what happened in Missouri could happen here.
If either or both of those spans were taken out, things would be in a world of hurt, for sure. At first reading, I thought maybe you were describing seismic hardening, but then I recalled that all that was necessary in the county had been done a few years ago. I can't even imagine the mess of folks going up I-15 and getting back to the coast via CAL-74 or CAL-91 (which is already a disaster between I-15 and Orange County). Good that someone at CalTrans got to thinking about that scenario.
mudchicken The fun will be watching MoDOT squirm in their regulatory shorts. I don't know a railroad field engineer or public works engineer that would not want the supports up-armored for new construction. (but they did not have final say in the matter -this incident will be cited for years to come)
The fun will be watching MoDOT squirm in their regulatory shorts. I don't know a railroad field engineer or public works engineer that would not want the supports up-armored for new construction. (but they did not have final say in the matter -this incident will be cited for years to come)
I was intrigued by some new construction going on the northern part of the Surf Line in Camp Pendleton. Turns out that CalTrans is adding the "armor" to the bridge columns that hold up the pair of bridges where I-5 crosses over the Surf Lines a couple of miles south of the San Onofre check point.
All the signals shown in the distance under and just beyond the bridge ("heavy" telephoto effect evident here) are consistent with a crossing frog still being there.
I wonder if the Google corp has taken pictures of a derailment and had to go back and reshoot the picture again,,, via sattellite of course.
Google Map Link: http://goo.gl/maps/BaeHa
Looks like the photo was taken from the grade crossing to the south.
Picture is looking north on the BNSF, and the turnout is to the east; presumably a small interchange track. I can't see the diamond either, but I presume it's still there.
Norm
Paul_D_North_Jr The Butler The new road bridge is up. There is no picture with the article. I wonder if a crash wall was included with the rebuild.Scott County overpass wrecked by train to open Friday There was a far-away photo when I clicked on this link a few minutes ago. The piers appear to be the 'hammerhead' type, with a single very thick stem (also kind of like a mushroom), which could function as a crash wall. - Paul North
The Butler The new road bridge is up. There is no picture with the article. I wonder if a crash wall was included with the rebuild.Scott County overpass wrecked by train to open Friday
- Paul North
I seem to recall that originally the two lines crossed each other on a diamond that was under the bridge. The picture in this article makes it appear that a alternative manner of having the carriers cross each other has been designed and implemented. To wit - the signals and turnout that are pictured.
James
SALfanLet me guess - the highway bubbas put the hwy. bridge back in the same exact spot, so the next time there's a train wreck the hwy bridge gets destroyed again. Smart, very smart (NOT).
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
The new road bridge is up. There is no picture with the article. I wonder if a crash wall was included with the rebuild.
I got in late on this. Is this the UP line to TX that uses the ex Katy through Oklahoma?
Northtowne
NTSB says UP had red signal:
http://www.stltoday.com/news/national/ntsb-train-in-mo-collision-had-signal-to-stop/article_7035d55d-49e7-5790-b391-112180475476.html
Hope you are correct about the state eating this one. Just remember the state can be the 800 pound gorilla when it wants to. You cannot win an urination contest with a skunk.
Concerning what wlilly said …
wlilly The local news reports say that MODOT is going to seek compensation to rebuild the bridge from the "railroad". Estimated cost $3 Million. No mention of MODOT responsibility that the current bridge wasn't hardened against a crash, or that the new one would be.
The local news reports say that MODOT is going to seek compensation to rebuild the bridge from the "railroad". Estimated cost $3 Million. No mention of MODOT responsibility that the current bridge wasn't hardened against a crash, or that the new one would be.
I’ve got a gut feeling that MODOT might eat this one. What railroad executive in their right mind would authorize an easement that made the railroad liable for that easement?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
In the photos, is it the BNSF line that's cut and out of service ?
When was (will be) the crossing frog re-installed ?
One thing I am pleasantly surprised about it that the crew on the UP train received "only" non-life-threatening injuries. To hit a moving train broadside with another train would seem to cause such wreckage that survival would be unlikely. Those new locomotives must have some serious crash-worthiness built into them (thankfully!!!).
x 2
Considering they also took over from the Public Service Commission in 1985 the regulatory side of things (incompetence + incompetance = still?)....
Go see the earlier comments about this in this thread.
Bucyrus So who has the responsibilty to protect the bridge from derailing trains?
So who has the responsibilty to protect the bridge from derailing trains?
Considering the railroad was there first MoDOT should have incorporated the possibility into their plans.
Hope they look in the mirror first!
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