coborn35 I love that you are putting a price on a human life. Thats pretty sick actually. It doesn't matter how many people die, one is too many. You CANNOT put a price on a human life. Eh lets cut funding for emergency rooms, only a few thousand die there a year compared to tons in traffic accidents. Might as well abolish money for Fire Departments, more people drown than die in fires. I'm afraid? Show me where I said I was afraid. Im not afraid, merely not wearing a dark cloth over my eyes and repeating "there are no bad guys, there are no bad guys" Having trained people spot suspicious people? Sure sounds good but wait until a Muslim or Black person gets stopped and it turns out to be a false alarm. I personally think this one sounds great: http://bobmccarty.com/2010/01/11/cia-deaths-terrorism-could-have-been-prevented/ Not intrusive, quick and easy.
I love that you are putting a price on a human life. Thats pretty sick actually. It doesn't matter how many people die, one is too many. You CANNOT put a price on a human life.
Eh lets cut funding for emergency rooms, only a few thousand die there a year compared to tons in traffic accidents. Might as well abolish money for Fire Departments, more people drown than die in fires.
I'm afraid? Show me where I said I was afraid. Im not afraid, merely not wearing a dark cloth over my eyes and repeating "there are no bad guys, there are no bad guys"
Having trained people spot suspicious people? Sure sounds good but wait until a Muslim or Black person gets stopped and it turns out to be a false alarm.
I personally think this one sounds great:
http://bobmccarty.com/2010/01/11/cia-deaths-terrorism-could-have-been-prevented/
Not intrusive, quick and easy.
coborn35 I love that you are putting a price on a human life. Thats pretty sick actually. It doesn't matter how many people die, one is too many. You CANNOT put a price on a human life. Eh lets cut funding for emergency rooms, only a few thousand die there a year compared to tons in traffic accidents. Might as well abolish money for Fire Departments, more people drown than die in fires. I'm afraid? Show me where I said I was afraid. Im not afraid, merely not wearing a dark cloth over my eyes and repeating "there are no bad guys, there are no bad guys" Having trained people spot suspicious people? Sure sounds good but wait until a Muslim or Black person gets stopped and it turns out to be a false alarm. Rev Jesse Jackson will gallop in on his horse waving the racism flag and blowing the racial profiling trumpet as loud as he can. I personally think this one sounds great: http://bobmccarty.com/2010/01/11/cia-deaths-terrorism-could-have-been-prevented/ Not intrusive, quick and easy.
Having trained people spot suspicious people? Sure sounds good but wait until a Muslim or Black person gets stopped and it turns out to be a false alarm. Rev Jesse Jackson will gallop in on his horse waving the racism flag and blowing the racial profiling trumpet as loud as he can.
Russell
coborn35 It doesn 't matter how many people die, one is too many. You CANNOT put a price on a human life.
It doesn 't matter how many people die, one is too many. You CANNOT put a price on a human life.
True, but not for the reason you imply -- that that life is a pearl beyond price, worth any expense, inconvenience or loss of civil liberties to the rest of us. If there is no price, it is because nobody knows what it is, that's all.
Question: If we move heaven and Earth to save one human life, at a cost (as described above) that extends into perpetuity -- and the *** fool steps in front of a bus the next day -- was our heroic exertion worth it?
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Phoebe Vet: I think you are right but I also think that it is the line of "reasoning" being used. While I appreciate the need for air security, which goes back quite awhile (to the late 60's?), much of what has happened since 9-11 provides only the illusion of air security, as Bucyrus points out, with some infringing on constitutional rights (so-called Patriot Act provisions), as you have suggested.
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While you are correct about the Border Protection exemptions, they are only allowed if the person searched has come in contact with the border.
At an international airport, those rules would apply to an international flight, but not to a domestic flight operating out of the same airport.
In 1986, during my police career, I was cross trained by the US Customs Service because we operated on the Canadian border.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
zugmann Phoebe Vet: Zug: Please review the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. Just did using a handy copy of American Government, Continuity and Change Alternative 2004 Edition Textbook, by Karen O'Connor and Larry J. Sabato. (I'm too lazy to re-learn the proper way to cite a book at this juncture). Now my question: does buying a ticket/boarding pass indicate consent? And is this considered a "General search"? No TSA guys have come to the house and tried to pat me down...
Phoebe Vet: Zug: Please review the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
Zug:
Please review the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
Just did using a handy copy of American Government, Continuity and Change Alternative 2004 Edition Textbook, by Karen O'Connor and Larry J. Sabato. (I'm too lazy to re-learn the proper way to cite a book at this juncture).
Now my question: does buying a ticket/boarding pass indicate consent? And is this considered a "General search"? No TSA guys have come to the house and tried to pat me down...
Wikipedia offers this discussion:
Searches conducted at the United States border or the equivalent of the border (such as an international airport) may be conducted without a warrant or probable cause subject to the "border-search" exception.[67] Most border searches may be conducted entirely at random, without any level of suspicion, pursuant to U.S. Customs and Border Protection plenary search authority. However, searches that intrude upon a traveler's personal dignity and privacy interests, such as strip and body cavity searches, must be supported by "reasonable suspicion."[68] The U.S. Courts of Appeals for the Fourth and Ninth circuits have ruled that information on a traveler's electronic materials, including personal files on a laptop computer, may be searched at random, without suspicion.[69]
Expanded:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception
Looks to me like this might end up in the courts, but it is not an extreme stretch of existing settled law.
That is the excuse TSA has always fallen back on. But in this particular case they did not allow him to withdraw that implied consent. He has been told that he is going to be subject to a $10,000 penalty for choosing to leave the airport rather than submit to the search. That doesn't sound like voluntary consent to me.
Bucyrus I would say that the tensions are going to quickly rise over this new security procedure. This is just the beginning. The travel crush of Thanksgiving is right around the corner. I expect more incidents to occur as tensions rise between indignant passengers and the TSA. That roar in the distance is the sound of damage being done to the airline travel industry.
I would say that the tensions are going to quickly rise over this new security procedure. This is just the beginning. The travel crush of Thanksgiving is right around the corner. I expect more incidents to occur as tensions rise between indignant passengers and the TSA. That roar in the distance is the sound of damage being done to the airline travel industry.
I fly alot and its really not that bad...it helps to plan your trip and to build in some time for security. Patience and a sense of humour also help alot...for shorter trips (up to 900 miles or so) I drive.
Personally I feel a bit sorry for the airline staff who have to deal with indignant passengers...I've seen it happen so often...a passenger lets it out on some poor flight attendent....not his or her fault but I guess they make a good punching bag.
No. Determination of what is reasonable is the decision of the judge who issues the warrant. It is not determined by the searching government agent. In the limited circumstances where police officers are allowed to to search without a warrant, they are required to justify the search in court after the fact. The final determination of "reasonable" is never left to the officer.
Phoebe Vet Zug: Please review the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Phoebe Vet Contrary to what Glenn Beck has told you, the Fourth Amendment does not only require warrants for "unreasonable searches". It states that "reasonable" is the requirement for issuing a warrant. (Retired Police officer here).
Contrary to what Glenn Beck has told you, the Fourth Amendment does not only require warrants for "unreasonable searches". It states that "reasonable" is the requirement for issuing a warrant.
(Retired Police officer here).
However what is deemed reasonable is still open to interpretation...and that's why we have what we have now. What's reasonable?
Fourth ammendment issue maybe....but not necessarily a civil rights issue... And the fourth ammendment is open to intrepretation...ie.your idea of "reasonable may differ from mine..
zugmann Ulrich: Your right not to be patted or exposed by strangers (unless you want to be)... Is that a civil rights issue?
Ulrich: Your right not to be patted or exposed by strangers (unless you want to be)...
Your right not to be patted or exposed by strangers (unless you want to be)...
Is that a civil rights issue?
I don't know...but here's an interesting link on civil rights...
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/civil-rights/
Ulrich Your right not to be patted or exposed by strangers (unless you want to be)...
I agree as well...however.... finding more than a handful of "highly qualified experts" in any field is the challenge....hence the bunch of bureaucrats you see in almost every field.
Phoebe Vet It is all an illusion designed to make you think the politicians are doing something. In fact, what they are doing is throwing HUGE amounts of money down a rat hole and taking away YOUR civil rights. They are accomplishing nothing.
It is all an illusion designed to make you think the politicians are doing something. In fact, what they are doing is throwing HUGE amounts of money down a rat hole and taking away YOUR civil rights. They are accomplishing nothing.
Being just an idiot railroader, edjumacate me: what are the civil rights that are being taken away?
Bucyrus Yes there are bad people who will commit terrorism on us, but that is not the point. The point is that there is a much more effective way to perform security. True security would make us safer without having a bunch of bureaucrats performing obnoxious body searches on everybody. True security is best accomplished by a few highly qualified experts performing intensely perceptive profiling and scrutiny on a selective basis where individual cases are red-flagged. This TSA nonsense is just another bloated government program justifying its existence to the public by performing security theater.
Yes there are bad people who will commit terrorism on us, but that is not the point. The point is that there is a much more effective way to perform security. True security would make us safer without having a bunch of bureaucrats performing obnoxious body searches on everybody. True security is best accomplished by a few highly qualified experts performing intensely perceptive profiling and scrutiny on a selective basis where individual cases are red-flagged. This TSA nonsense is just another bloated government program justifying its existence to the public by performing security theater.
I agree.
coborn35 Wake up and smell the coffee people. There are bad people out there. You cannot go to bed with your doors unlocked. Its a different time now. Wake up reality.
Wake up and smell the coffee people. There are bad people out there. You cannot go to bed with your doors unlocked. Its a different time now. Wake up reality.
coborn35 Yeah? Is everyone boarding an airplane getting "strip searched, X-rayed, patted down, and background investigated"? Didn't think so. Personally I think this type of thinking is what led to all the terrorist attacks. "It can NEVER happen to me" "No one would ever do this" Wake up and smell the coffee people. There are bad people out there. Even if only one plane bombing is stopped, it is worth it. Will there ever be another one? Maybe not, but we are not giving up any freedoms by getting searched. If you have nothing to hide, nothing will happen and you will move on your merry way. Its not the 1960's anymore guys. You cannot go to bed with your doors unlocked. Its a different time now. Wake up reality.
Yeah? Is everyone boarding an airplane getting "strip searched, X-rayed, patted down, and background investigated"? Didn't think so. Personally I think this type of thinking is what led to all the terrorist attacks. "It can NEVER happen to me" "No one would ever do this" Wake up and smell the coffee people. There are bad people out there. Even if only one plane bombing is stopped, it is worth it. Will there ever be another one? Maybe not, but we are not giving up any freedoms by getting searched. If you have nothing to hide, nothing will happen and you will move on your merry way. Its not the 1960's anymore guys. You cannot go to bed with your doors unlocked. Its a different time now. Wake up reality.
The reason that terrorism is such an effective weapon against America is because Americans are so easily frightened. In Sept of 2001 more people died in traffic accidents in the US than died at the hands of terrorists. TSA is spending 8 BILLION dollars a year and operating far outside of our Constitution because YOU are afraid of a loosely organized band of criminals. You stand a better chance of being struck by lightning than of being killed by a terrorist. The response to the fear is WAY out of proportion to the actual threat. America is not more dangerous today that it was in the '60s. Bad people will always exist, and all of the government surveillance and intrusion in the world will never change that. To quote the loony Sarah Palin: "Man up".
Ms. Napolitano:
If people are afraid to get on an airplane until all the passengers and crew have been strip searched, X-rayed, patted down, and background investigated maybe THEY should endure the inconvenience of using another form of transportation.
The entire TSA organization is inconsistent with "Traditional American Values".
From Phoebe Vet: "...It is all an illusion designed to make you think the politicians are doing something. In fact, what they are doing is throwing HUGE amounts of money down a rat hole and taking away YOUR civil rights. They are accomplishing nothing..."
One of the main reasons why politicians cultivate connections with the folks who have private jets.
You have to wonder if San Fran Nan goes through a TSA Check before she boards her plane (AF-3) and flys off to California on her 757 or G-5? [The answer is most likely, pretty obvious!]
The only time I fly is when we go off the continent - Not many options there, though...
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She added that "if people want to travel by some other means," they have that right.
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2010-11-16-airportpatdowns16_ST_N.htm
Ms. Napolitano agrees. If you do not like the scans and searches, do not fly.
If Amtrak does not latch onto this, what about Mega Bus, Greyhound and others? The marketing opportunity is there.
eolafan As a person who travels by airplane for business very often, I feel this way when it comes to airport security..."If you don't want to be subjected to airport security, either stay home, take your car or travel by train".
As a person who travels by airplane for business very often, I feel this way when it comes to airport security..."If you don't want to be subjected to airport security, either stay home, take your car or travel by train".
Please publish a list of terrorists caught at TSA airport screening stations in all the years they have been doing this.
It is unamerican. I, personally, prefer freedom to the illusion of safety.
It's only a matter of time before terrorists figure out that trains would make good targets..and then we will see all that security stuff at train stations too. The best way to avoid the hassle is to get into your car and drive to whever you need to get to...
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