Bucyrus I think that the only thing that is keeping us safe from air terrorism so far is the fact that the enemy has not yet made a concerted effort to mount a simultaneous, multiple suicide bomber attack.
Bucyrus, I think the other thing we have working for us is that, on 9-11-01, these primitive SOBs had the best day of their lives. And that depended on us not knowing, or believing, what they were up to.
Not that they can't get lucky again, of course. But I like the ideas you have laid out in this thread for improving our present politically correct screenings.
Ulrich57 % in 2008 . It's never been at 20%...lowest at around 35 % over the last 50 years.
2010 - 28%
2008 - 63%
Still really lousy...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann rockymidlandrr: . The government has to remember, THEY work for US, not the other way around. If we dont like what a particular person or party is doing, WE have the right to get them out of power. If enough people protest this wrongful and ineffective screening procedure, it will be gone. And what is the percentage of elgible americans that even bother to vote? Twenty-some percent? I somehow doubt we'll see anyone taking to the streets.
rockymidlandrr: . The government has to remember, THEY work for US, not the other way around. If we dont like what a particular person or party is doing, WE have the right to get them out of power. If enough people protest this wrongful and ineffective screening procedure, it will be gone.
. The government has to remember, THEY work for US, not the other way around. If we dont like what a particular person or party is doing, WE have the right to get them out of power. If enough people protest this wrongful and ineffective screening procedure, it will be gone.
And what is the percentage of elgible americans that even bother to vote? Twenty-some percent?
I somehow doubt we'll see anyone taking to the streets.
57 % in 2008 . It's never been at 20%...lowest at around 35 % over the last 50 years.
rockymidlandrr . The government has to remember, THEY work for US, not the other way around. If we dont like what a particular person or party is doing, WE have the right to get them out of power. If enough people protest this wrongful and ineffective screening procedure, it will be gone.
I think that the only thing that is keeping us safe from air terrorism so far is the fact that the enemy has not yet made a concerted effort to mount a simultaneous, multiple suicide bomber attack. Surely they realize that the way to circumvent our standard imaging/pat-down procedure is to swallow capsules of c-4 along with a detonator capsule. They just need to figure out a detonator that can be triggered by swallowing some type of substance that TSA will allow to be taken onto the plane.
What this grim potential suggests is a stronger imaging machine at the security checkpoints. The X-ray power will have to be boosted so they can see inside the body. This may force limitations on how often a passenger can be screened, so I suppose your air travel screenings will have to become a part of your medical record.
Link to Terror ‘Mules’: bombs in bodies.
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/news/2001/11/48349?currentPage=1
I personally dont hink this grope-and-search ordeal will be able to stand long. The people of the U.S. are finally standing up, they are getting to see their freedoms taken away in a VERY personal manner with this, and I have seen few in favor for it in my circles. The last time I flew was about a month ago, but where I flew in and out of they didnt have this in place nor was this program in motion. The government has to remember, THEY work for US, not the other way around. If we dont like what a particular person or party is doing, WE have the right to get them out of power. If enough people protest this wrongful and ineffective screening procedure, it will be gone.
Hopefully the silly season of responses (CBG to attack whom?) has ended. Here's an effective, reasonable idea for detecting one of the most common explosives, which has been hard to detect:
http://www.las.illinois.edu/news/2010/sensor/
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
edblysard Here is a idea, been tried before, and worked quite well. It requires sacrifice and hard work and often death, but... How about we really take the fight to them? Ever seen what a CBG, (Carrier Battle Group) can accomplish when you take away the restraints? The terroris want to live in something close to the third century, and you know what, some folks like myself would be quite happy to help them achieve that goal. The price of freedom is high. [snip]
It requires sacrifice and hard work and often death, but...
How about we really take the fight to them?
Ever seen what a CBG, (Carrier Battle Group) can accomplish when you take away the restraints?
The terroris want to live in something close to the third century, and you know what, some folks like myself would be quite happy to help them achieve that goal.
The price of freedom is high. [snip]
Right on, bro'. You probably remember what Air Force General Curtis LeMay said about "bombing them back to the Stone Age". What would Teddy Roosevelt think of all this ?
I figure that at $100,000 per person for an entire year, the $8 Billion a year that the TSA costs us would support about 80,000 troops = 8 divisions continuously in the field. Deployed and with appropriate orders, that would go a long ways towards removing the source of the problem. General William Tecumseh Sherman demonstrated one way how to do it back during the Civil War, too, in his 'March to the Sea'.
- Paul North.
Ed, as to your interface with the man who did not know the danger that HCN presents, perhaps the people who sent him to check on the cars with chlorine in them should also be concerned about such things as hydrocyanic acid, and check on them also. It is possible to survive chlorine (as I recall, it is hazard zone B, not A), but HCN is, as you state, far more deadly. How many other deadly substances which these people do not bother with do you handle? A friend of mine was working with chlorine in an evacuated hood when the hood apparently backfired on him. The following year, he went into the Marine Corps, and was asked about his tuberculosis (the chlorine had scarred his lungs). He came back to college with his zeal for the pre-med course unabated. The same amount of HCN would probably meant a call for a hearse.
It is true that the Germans used chlorine (when the wind was right) to bother the English, French and AEF during the "Great War," hoping to kill the men in the trenches. Give thanks that they did not use something worse. One man at home was gassed, and he lived many years thereafter.
Johnny
Those who believe that the TSA is just for show might want to check out Table 2-16b of the 2009 National Transportation Statistics. Here is a list of the non-allowed items that the TSA intercepted in 2007 at Airport Screening Checkpoints. This is the latest complete data:
Interestingly, a former coach of the Dallas Cowboys was stopped at DFW whilst attempting to pass through the TSA screening points. It seems that he had a loaded pistol in his carry-on. Oh, he is reported to have said, "I didn't know that was in my bag.
I want the TSA to do a thorough job of screening commercial airline passengers as well as reasonable screenings of train, bus, and transit passengers. Whether I am on a plane, train, bus, or subway, I don't want a nut case sitting next to me with a gun or stiletto.
What I mentioned about Muslim organizations asking our HSA/TSA to exempt Muslim women from the intrusive searches because their religion gives them a heightened sense of modesty has not actually happened yet, so we really have to wait and see if it does. All we know at this point is that the request was made and Napolitano did not say no. And she seemed to imply that it could happen. If the exemption is granted, I would not be surprised. It would be the mother of all ironies.
As to "adjustments being made" to accomodate Muslim women, etc., SCREW THEM...if they don't want to be searched, scanned or whatever let them stay home and make goat burgers or something. I say don't make "adjustments" for ANYBODY AT ALL...not them, not me, not anybody.
I know your generation quite well.
In fact, one of your generation, instead of hiding his head in the sand or becoming a sheep or herd animal, just won the Congressional Medal of Honor for his actions.
First time it has been awarded to a living person in decades.
You should listen to his interview on the news...he gets it.
Nothing about war is good, although we should glorify our brave young men and women who don the uniform and fight for our freedoms.
coborn35 edblysard: Coborn, Your right, it is a different time...Americans have lost the guts and gumption of my father's generation. You remember those guys, the ones who marched across Europe, and island hopped from Pearl Harbor to Japan, all to guarantee that you have, (had) the right to go about your personal business without having to check in with your local Gestapo officer? coborn35: Yeah? Is everyone boarding an airplane getting "strip searched, X-rayed, patted down, and background investigated"? Didn't think so. Personally I think this type of thinking is what led to all the terrorist attacks. "It can NEVER happen to me" "No one would ever do this" Wake up and smell the coffee people. There are bad people out there. Even if only one plane bombing is stopped, it is worth it. Will there ever be another one? Maybe not, but we are not giving up any freedoms by getting searched. If you have nothing to hide, nothing will happen and you will move on your merry way. Its not the 1960's anymore guys. You cannot go to bed with your doors unlocked. Its a different time now. Wake up reality. [] You remember the kids I graduated with, who are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan? Because the people from YOUR generation are sending them there? Guess only the glorified and "good" wars count. You see, at the root of things it is your generation that is paranoid and passing all these laws, not mine.
edblysard: Coborn, Your right, it is a different time...Americans have lost the guts and gumption of my father's generation. You remember those guys, the ones who marched across Europe, and island hopped from Pearl Harbor to Japan, all to guarantee that you have, (had) the right to go about your personal business without having to check in with your local Gestapo officer? coborn35: Yeah? Is everyone boarding an airplane getting "strip searched, X-rayed, patted down, and background investigated"? Didn't think so. Personally I think this type of thinking is what led to all the terrorist attacks. "It can NEVER happen to me" "No one would ever do this" Wake up and smell the coffee people. There are bad people out there. Even if only one plane bombing is stopped, it is worth it. Will there ever be another one? Maybe not, but we are not giving up any freedoms by getting searched. If you have nothing to hide, nothing will happen and you will move on your merry way. Its not the 1960's anymore guys. You cannot go to bed with your doors unlocked. Its a different time now. Wake up reality. []
Coborn,
Your right, it is a different time...Americans have lost the guts and gumption of my father's generation.
You remember those guys, the ones who marched across Europe, and island hopped from Pearl Harbor to Japan, all to guarantee that you have, (had) the right to go about your personal business without having to check in with your local Gestapo officer?
coborn35: Yeah? Is everyone boarding an airplane getting "strip searched, X-rayed, patted down, and background investigated"? Didn't think so. Personally I think this type of thinking is what led to all the terrorist attacks. "It can NEVER happen to me" "No one would ever do this" Wake up and smell the coffee people. There are bad people out there. Even if only one plane bombing is stopped, it is worth it. Will there ever be another one? Maybe not, but we are not giving up any freedoms by getting searched. If you have nothing to hide, nothing will happen and you will move on your merry way. Its not the 1960's anymore guys. You cannot go to bed with your doors unlocked. Its a different time now. Wake up reality.
Yeah? Is everyone boarding an airplane getting "strip searched, X-rayed, patted down, and background investigated"? Didn't think so. Personally I think this type of thinking is what led to all the terrorist attacks. "It can NEVER happen to me" "No one would ever do this" Wake up and smell the coffee people. There are bad people out there. Even if only one plane bombing is stopped, it is worth it. Will there ever be another one? Maybe not, but we are not giving up any freedoms by getting searched. If you have nothing to hide, nothing will happen and you will move on your merry way. Its not the 1960's anymore guys. You cannot go to bed with your doors unlocked. Its a different time now. Wake up reality.
[]
You remember the kids I graduated with, who are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan? Because the people from YOUR generation are sending them there? Guess only the glorified and "good" wars count. You see, at the root of things it is your generation that is paranoid and passing all these laws, not mine.
23 17 46 11
Bucyrus The point is that there is a much more effective way to perform security. True security would make us safer without having a bunch of bureaucrats performing obnoxious body searches on everybody. True security is best accomplished by a few highly qualified experts performing intensely perceptive profiling and scrutiny on a selective basis where individual cases are red-flagged. This TSA nonsense is just another bloated government program justifying its existence to the public by performing security theater.
The point is that there is a much more effective way to perform security. True security would make us safer without having a bunch of bureaucrats performing obnoxious body searches on everybody. True security is best accomplished by a few highly qualified experts performing intensely perceptive profiling and scrutiny on a selective basis where individual cases are red-flagged. This TSA nonsense is just another bloated government program justifying its existence to the public by performing security theater.
Bucyrus has it right. Additionally, take away Congressional ID cards. I believe they act as a signal to the TSA to go easy on the presumably august personage! If some of those large egos got groped regularly or had images of their privates circulating on the net, things would change in a hurry.
I have a question -- when leaving Israel, are the enhanced security procedures applied to all airlines or just El-Al? It would seem to me an El-Al airliner is sort of a Moby Dick for terriorists, and they have managed to go a very long time without incident.
There are three questions here. Will the x-ray body scan (or more intrusive body pat-down) encourage Amtrak ridership? Yes, especially if the train trip is no longer than overnight. Does Amtrak have a marketing opportunity in avoiding these [more intrusive] scans? Perhaps, it all depends on how long the more iintrusive scans keep up. My best guess is the furor being raised over the scans will prompt Congress to hold hearings, and there might be changes. Will scans similar to the more intrusive airline passenger body scans be extended to trains? Such scans might be extended to trains operating out of the busier passenger stations such as Los Angeles or New York, but not out of stations such as Tyrone, PA or Benson, AZ which are way stations. But, if a member of Congress is exposed to an intrusive body scan then all bets are off. The more intrusive scans could be history.
edblysard Coborn, Your right, it is a different time...Americans have lost the guts and gumption of my father's generation. You remember those guys, the ones who marched across Europe, and island hopped from Pearl Harbor to Japan, all to guarantee that you have, (had) the right to go about your personal business without having to check in with your local Gestapo officer? coborn35: Yeah? Is everyone boarding an airplane getting "strip searched, X-rayed, patted down, and background investigated"? Didn't think so. Personally I think this type of thinking is what led to all the terrorist attacks. "It can NEVER happen to me" "No one would ever do this" Wake up and smell the coffee people. There are bad people out there. Even if only one plane bombing is stopped, it is worth it. Will there ever be another one? Maybe not, but we are not giving up any freedoms by getting searched. If you have nothing to hide, nothing will happen and you will move on your merry way. Its not the 1960's anymore guys. You cannot go to bed with your doors unlocked. Its a different time now. Wake up reality. []
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
Muslim groups have asked Homeland Security Janet Napolitano if Muslim women wearing hijabs may be excused from the intrusive security screening because Muslim women have a heightened sense of modesty. Ms. Napolitano said, “Adjustments will be made where they need to be made, and on this particular issue, there is more to come.”
Here is the link to her comments: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/napolitano-on-muslim-women-pat-downs-more-to-come/
Fred,
Here is a idea, been tried before, and worked quite well.
The price of freedom is high.
How would you like some things, like your postings here, to be read by a censor before they were approved to be posted? Never know how much of a security risk this forum could pose….
How would you like some things, like your postings here, to be read by a censor before they were approved to be posted?
Never know how much of a security risk this forum could pose….
dakotafred Murray: My question to theposters of this thread then is ...if not this security measure...then what would you want to see in place...or what would you recommend in its place? In other words, how do you effectively protect the security of the flying public from threats (real or perceived)? Go back to Page 1 of this thread and re-read jchnhtfd's post of 11-15.
Murray: My question to theposters of this thread then is ...if not this security measure...then what would you want to see in place...or what would you recommend in its place? In other words, how do you effectively protect the security of the flying public from threats (real or perceived)?
My question to theposters of this thread then is ...if not this security measure...then what would you want to see in place...or what would you recommend in its place?
In other words, how do you effectively protect the security of the flying public from threats (real or perceived)?
Go back to Page 1 of this thread and re-read jchnhtfd's post of 11-15.
And of course, if you are arrested and charged with a crime, like murder, then by your statement, if you didn't kill someone you don't need a attorney, right?
So why don't we just toss out the Miranda warning altogether?
Look, I deal with the TSA every day, they show up and ask for the TIH report for the location of chlorine tank cars in our yard, then they go check and see if the cars are really there..
Funny thing was, had one of them standing right beside a tank car full of hydrocyanatic acid, complaining that the chlorine cars were to hard to identify from a distance....then trying to impress me with how dangerous some chemicals are...duffus was in the shadow of a tank car full of something that, if it leaks out, kills people, period, no maybe about it.
But here is a Federal employee, well, really a contractor with Lockheed Martin, trying to impress me with his knowledge of how "chlorine turns into a gas when it leaks out" and how it "can cause serious respiratory inflammation if inhaled"
No, really?
So I asked him about the car he was leaning against, and he had no idea what it was.
The thing has huge red billboards on all side warning that if derailed, to not attempt to re rail, call 1-800...skull and crossbones all over it, bright white car with a huge red stripe around it length wise, and "inhalation hazard", "Do Not Hump or Cut Off in Motion" stenciled all over it, but he had no clue.
Your tax dollars at work.
Hey,, How about that Bill of Rights?
Shoot, who needs a Constitution when we have the TSA and other government agencies to watch out for us.
coborn35 Yeah? Is everyone boarding an airplane getting "strip searched, X-rayed, patted down, and background investigated"? Didn't think so. Personally I think this type of thinking is what led to all the terrorist attacks. "It can NEVER happen to me" "No one would ever do this" Wake up and smell the coffee people. There are bad people out there. Even if only one plane bombing is stopped, it is worth it. Will there ever be another one? Maybe not, but we are not giving up any freedoms by getting searched. If you have nothing to hide, nothing will happen and you will move on your merry way. Its not the 1960's anymore guys. You cannot go to bed with your doors unlocked. Its a different time now. Wake up reality.
Bucyrus I made a trip to Ecuador once and had to enter customs at Quito. The guy who was inspecting people’s luggage at the head of the line was about 7’-6” tall and wearing a military officer’s dress uniform. He would ask each person in line to open a suitcase. Then, while the person who owned the suitcase watched the agent’s hand rummaging in their suitcase, the agent only watched the suitcase owner’s eyes and demeanor to see if there was any reaction.
I made a trip to Ecuador once and had to enter customs at Quito. The guy who was inspecting people’s luggage at the head of the line was about 7’-6” tall and wearing a military officer’s dress uniform. He would ask each person in line to open a suitcase. Then, while the person who owned the suitcase watched the agent’s hand rummaging in their suitcase, the agent only watched the suitcase owner’s eyes and demeanor to see if there was any reaction.
My most intrusive customs check was a flight to Saudi Arabia.
They Saudi customs officials left nothing unturned in my luggage...I must have looked too "infidel" to them.
Bucyrus coborn35: I love that you are putting a price on a human life. Thats pretty sick actually. It doesn't matter how many people die, one is too many. You CANNOT put a price on a human life. I'm afraid? Show me where I said I was afraid. Im not afraid, merely not wearing a dark cloth over my eyes and repeating "there are no bad guys, there are no bad guys" Having trained people spot suspicious people? Sure sounds good but wait until a Muslim or Black person gets stopped and it turns out to be a false alarm. Rev Jesse Jackson will gallop in on his horse waving the racism flag and blowing the racial profiling trumpet as loud as he can. Who is suggesting putting a price on human life? If we did security the most effective way, it would probably be a lot cheaper than this current TSA nonsense. And it probably has the potential to save more lives. The kind of profiling that is being proposed for security is not just a matter of pulling every mideastern-looking person out of the line. It is much more sophisticated than that. And who is suggesting that there are no bad guys? Nobody is saying that we don't need security. You seem to be arguing a position that nobody is opposing.
coborn35: I love that you are putting a price on a human life. Thats pretty sick actually. It doesn't matter how many people die, one is too many. You CANNOT put a price on a human life. I'm afraid? Show me where I said I was afraid. Im not afraid, merely not wearing a dark cloth over my eyes and repeating "there are no bad guys, there are no bad guys" Having trained people spot suspicious people? Sure sounds good but wait until a Muslim or Black person gets stopped and it turns out to be a false alarm. Rev Jesse Jackson will gallop in on his horse waving the racism flag and blowing the racial profiling trumpet as loud as he can.
I love that you are putting a price on a human life. Thats pretty sick actually. It doesn't matter how many people die, one is too many. You CANNOT put a price on a human life.
I'm afraid? Show me where I said I was afraid. Im not afraid, merely not wearing a dark cloth over my eyes and repeating "there are no bad guys, there are no bad guys"
Having trained people spot suspicious people? Sure sounds good but wait until a Muslim or Black person gets stopped and it turns out to be a false alarm. Rev Jesse Jackson will gallop in on his horse waving the racism flag and blowing the racial profiling trumpet as loud as he can.
Who is suggesting putting a price on human life? If we did security the most effective way, it would probably be a lot cheaper than this current TSA nonsense. And it probably has the potential to save more lives.
The kind of profiling that is being proposed for security is not just a matter of pulling every mideastern-looking person out of the line. It is much more sophisticated than that.
And who is suggesting that there are no bad guys? Nobody is saying that we don't need security. You seem to be arguing a position that nobody is opposing.
Thats how I win all my arguments
BucyrusWhen I say that the best method of security would be cheaper, I am not saying we should do it just because it is cheaper. I am saying we should do it because it is the most effective. And it is cheaper to boot. We save more lives for less money. Here is a discussion of the method I am advocating: http://articles.cnn.com/2010-01-11/opinion/yeffet.air.security.israel_1_airport-security-isaac-yeffet-el-al?_s=PM:OPINION
Here is a discussion of the method I am advocating:
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-01-11/opinion/yeffet.air.security.israel_1_airport-security-isaac-yeffet-el-al?_s=PM:OPINION
Good article!
I think we're pretty much in agreement Bucyrus.
Its funny that you mention that post. I did in fact read it yesterday.
One point that I'd like to raise regarding his comments on El-Al. Getting on an El-Al plane is not as easy as he suggests. You pass through a minimum of four different security checkpoints and your baggage does not leave your side until you are about to get on the El-Al plane. And while the Israeli's are eons ahead of the US in terms of profiling pasengers, their security asks pointed (some might say intrusive) questions as to where they have been and where they are going.
Regarding the posters somment on people being sheep, well...I don't buy that. By nature the traveling public desires to be safe, while at the same time it does not wnat its "personal space" infringed...something that the current TSA policy apparently is now doing.
Murray Bucyrus: Who is suggesting putting a price on human life? If we did security the most effective way, it would probably be a lot cheaper than this current TSA nonsense. And it probably has the potential to save more lives. I would agree with you up to a point. Secrity should be effective and it should be efficient. You cannot, however, assign a price to security.
Bucyrus: Who is suggesting putting a price on human life? If we did security the most effective way, it would probably be a lot cheaper than this current TSA nonsense. And it probably has the potential to save more lives.
I would agree with you up to a point.
Secrity should be effective and it should be efficient.
You cannot, however, assign a price to security.
When I say that the best method of security would be cheaper, I am not saying we should do it just because it is cheaper. I am saying we should do it because it is the most effective. And it is cheaper to boot. We save more lives for less money.
Murray My question to theposters of this thread then is ...if not this security measure...then what would you want to see in place...or what would you recommend in its place? In other words, how do you effectively protect the security of the flying public from threats (real or perceived)?
BucyrusWho is suggesting putting a price on human life? If we did security the most effective way, it would probably be a lot cheaper than this current TSA nonsense. And it probably has the potential to save more lives.
Security should be effective and it should be efficient.
coborn35 I love that you are putting a price on a human life. Thats pretty sick actually. It doesn't matter how many people die, one is too many. You CANNOT put a price on a human life. I'm afraid? Show me where I said I was afraid. Im not afraid, merely not wearing a dark cloth over my eyes and repeating "there are no bad guys, there are no bad guys" Having trained people spot suspicious people? Sure sounds good but wait until a Muslim or Black person gets stopped and it turns out to be a false alarm. Rev Jesse Jackson will gallop in on his horse waving the racism flag and blowing the racial profiling trumpet as loud as he can.
I think we're getting a little melodramatic and overly-emotional here.
The problem is, security safeguards need to be implace to protect the flying public. All you have to do is review the last few security attempts that have been peretrated on passenger airlines to see that such a threat is real and indeed viable.
The reality is, we will never go back to the day of the simple walk-through X-Ray machine dating from the 1970's. The actions of al-Qa'ida have seen to that.
I'm not going to wrap myself around the constitution, or espouse to be a lawyer (which I am not)...or worse a civil libertarian. This is clearly a problem that needs to be addressed; hopefully the guidelines of which will be adjusted accordingly.
My question to the posters of this thread then is ...if not this security measure...then what would you want to see in place...or what would you recommend in its place?
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